(Topic ID: 172487)

PAPA Going Pump n Dump


By CrazyLevi

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 112 posts
  • 47 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by GravitaR
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    #19 3 years ago

    well, this makes the conflict with MGC mean little/nothing now.

    I think this is a really bad change but the reason for it is obvious. PAPA is 100% about trying to figure out how to get lessor players to help seed a larger pot for the good ole boys club of top players. Guessing this new format will also get some of the A players to pump a bit more?

    HERB style play is largely gone to the wayside in the modern era of pinball competition. Players vote with participation and in general most seem to like limited entry formats. Pump and dump is cool for a side event or something to occupy time for those that get bumped for a main.

    Making PAPA pump and dump removes lots of the novelty of the 5 game ticket. The 5 game ticket was a very fun format and obviously geared towards consistent play.

    For those that are now out on PAPA, I suggest checking out MGC which is one of the best social, collector, hobbyist shows in the whole nation. No pump and dump at MGC and the tourney continues to bring in more players and more IFPA points.

    #24 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    MGC doesn't have almost all of the best players in the world vying for the world championships, and it doesn't have near the prize or WPPR pool.
    I'm sure it's a nice event but stop pretending there's a chance people will defect from PAPA to attend it.

    Levi, people will opt to go to MGC over PAPA. That is reality, they have in the past and this change will likely make some thing about not doing PAPA this year. Sure the top 100 in the world wont, but those people tend to be more motivated at cash payouts and points.

    Still lots of points to be had at MGC with mutliple events all with 80 to 200 players.
    MGC also offers a great social setting, amazing collection of proudly displayed hobbyist games, cosplay, board games, arcades, etc... the list goes on and on. There is a reason other shows have begun to model themselves on the way MGC does things.

    I really did not mean to make it a PaPa or MGC thing with my comment. I was just pointing out that with the conflicting dates last year and this year is was always a tough choice. Now with the change to Papa it is a much easier choice to do MGC.

    I personally would liekt o see the return of the 5 game ticket to Papa and to also have it not conflict with MGC dates, then I would go to both events!

    #25 3 years ago
    Quoted from mkecasey:

    I'll add that MGC also offers tournament variety, especially if you participate in the Friday night events. In one weekend you can do PinGolf, Clock Chaos (similar to PAPA - do well on multiple games on one ticket), plus the main MGC tournament. It's definitely a fun weekend.

    You coming home for MGC this year?

    If so, I could use some scorekeeper help on Friday for CC. It comes with perks.

    #47 3 years ago
    Quoted from GravitaR:

    MGC is way to crowded and I'm very surprised the Fire Marshall hasn't shut it down to excessive crowds and narrow walk paths. Can't even play a game of pinball without a passer by rubbing you or pushing you against the machine to get by. Vendor tents outside, if rains is a total mess for all.
    Would love to attend MGC of old since the tourney play on Friday was fun. Also like to visit Tom's place one of these years as I love to play the older games.
    A MGC Memory:

    You should come back and BRING a game.

    MGC being crowded is the reality of being a good show. However, the tourney lines are not crowded on Friday as the VIP event is limited space. The main tourney is easy to play through as limited entries on a handfull of games.

    If you bring a game then you get full acess to the after party which is more room than you could ever need and you can play to your hearts content till the wee hours.

    Vendor tent was just fine. They have improved that vastly over the first year.

    Things get better every year with MGC! Come back over to check it out.

    #66 3 years ago
    Quoted from Robotoes:

    I read a lot of silly stuff on pinside, but this is a pretty outlandish statement. Shameful, even.

    really?

    That is my assessment of PAPA. Nothing wrong with that paradigm. Thye are trying to build the sport by coming up with bigger prize pools. The only way to build large prize pools is either with sponsorship (dont think Pinball is quite there yet) or get lessor players with little/no possibility of walking away with cash to help bump up the pot for the greater players to win.

    Go look through the last X years of PAPA finalists. I could write out a top 20 for this year and likely get over 50% correct without even doing any data mining. Few people are on the calibur of top 100 players in consistently dominating the sport. If you want to raise money for those people to win... well it does not take a genious how to do it.

    IF they were not concerned with building prize pools for the A players then they could easily prove me wrong by keeping all seeding money within a division. i.e. If B division brings in the most seeding money then they get the larger prize pool.

    Unfortunately they now filter all the cash upwards. Please explain to me if that is not the case.

    #71 3 years ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    According to the PAPA website the top prizes for PAPA 20 divisions are (in thousands) $7, $2, $1, $0.15. Previous years they were $10, $4, $1, $0.5. So they don't appear to be trying to build a bigger prize pool. First place in A does get 3.5 times the second place finisher and the winner of B division. Was that what you meant by "filtering all the cash upwards"?
    http://papa.org/competitions/papa-world-championships/
    http://papa.org/competitions/papa-world-championships/papa-19-world-championships/
    http://papa.org/competitions/papa-world-championships/papa-18-world-championships/
    http://papa.org/competitions/papa-world-championships/papa-11-world-championships/

    Yes, exactly what I mean. You can go mine the data to check it further as I dont have the time and have done it before.

    The next step is to count the number of total entries for each division X cost of each entry. I did the math a few years back and the money put into lower divisions versus payout is WAY lopsided.

    The ratio of paid into division: paid out in division will clearly show how money is filtered upstream.

    I have no issue with pump and dump, but it is a kick in the junk when B players, C players, D players dont get IFPA points and are also helping to further seed the prize package for A.

    #79 3 years ago
    Quoted from ninjadoug:

    This is not the case. In fact the last two years, the lowest division (D) paid out more than it took in.
    You also have to keep in mind that each division costs a different amount. So yes, while the payouts for A Division at PAPA 19 were significantly larger than B Divison, an A ticket cost $25 and a B ticket cost $15.
    In fact, for both of the past two years, A division players paid more into the event than B players, who paid more into the event than C, who paid more into the event than D
    Just looking at tickets doesn't quite tell the whole story either, because volunteers are frequently lower ranked players who cash in their credit for entries which inflates the total number of (mostly C) entries.

    What are the ratios of paid in vs paid out for ALL of the divisions from the past few years?

    The ratios are what tell the story. I mined the data from a few years ago and the ratios were clear that the money filtered upstream looking at the ratios. This is not a problem, as I fully understand the reason for any pump and dump is to increase prize pools for top players.

    #82 3 years ago
    Quoted from ninjadoug:

    Well, it's not what we are attempting to do. The prize pools are guaranteed before the event.
    We've done a lot of balancing the last few years (changing costs of tickets, changing restrictions) in order to balance things out. PAPA 17 and prior that may have been the case, but I don't have direct access to those numbers.

    Good to know. Thx for all you do!
    I liked the previous format fwiw.
    I likely did not like it at first but do now as i have learned more the past few years.

    Thx for what u do!

    1 week later
    #107 3 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    People keep missing the big difference with the 5 ticket system which created a sense of urgency to do well on 5 games on a single ticket.

    any that was the beuty of the old format. Made every game really count.

    Dave, you coming to MGC this year instead?

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