Thanks, Hilton I agree with that!

Just as an FYI, because there are a bunch of people who like to raise points like this every year and I feel the need to ensure the correct information is out there...

My background is I used to work in theme park management, and specifically how to safely move people from place to place. I work directly with the fire department every year to ensure that our show is safe and run as best as possible to serve it's mission, which is to share the passion of gaming with whomever wants to join in. There are other shows that are more about being able to walk up to a game and play, such as the one that Clay does (I forget the name of it offhand) where the goal is to sell no more tickets than available machines to play. Our goal has never been to provide that, and quite frankly the financial way our show works it would be a complete disaster for us to try doing that. Clay has that set up.

If this makes anyone decide to support another show over us, I think that is great! There are a ton of different shows for a reason!

But, to be very clear, in the past the Fire Marshall has told me that we (MGC) are the best prepared group for the type of show that we do that they have ever seen. Everything that we do is based on my knowledge of how to safely move large crowds of people from place to place, and that is how things are done, knowledge that I got from helping to safely move 50k+ people through what is ultimately a similar type of recreation event.

Most of this isn't really interesting, but I'm happy to share more... but a PAPA thread probably isn't the place.

...

As for the format difference, I was always very curious about how I would do playing in the PAPA format. I'm not good enough / don't care about "real" competition enough to ever plan a trip to go down there to play myself, but the format was intriguing to me. I have played in pump and dump style tournaments, and I don't love them. Having said that, I figure that after a year or two, the split on if it is a good thing or a bad thing will be about the same as it was now. All formats are interesting, and the one big positive that I do see is that the previous method was much harder to teach to a new player. New players "get" the pump and dump format very easily, and can be walked through the playoff system.

We saw the same change when we moved the main MGC tournament off the PND style and into a limited entry tournament (which, by the way, is both free to enter and the winner gets just a certificate, so we are TOTALLY not competing with PAPA for prize money!) where we had to really explain to people how the limited entry works. Once people get it though, this new tournament method has been preferred by the majority of people who have talked to us about it, because they don't feel like they must throw a bunch of money at qualification, they can do their entries and then go enjoy the rest of the show, and the lines stay short for entries because of the limited nature - in fact, there are times you can walk up and play with no line usually.

Now, that style works for us, but for PAPA, where the main focus is on the tournament and being able to participate in that to win big money, I do see why the PND style may be the best for it. It doesn't personally interest me, but then hey, not many tournaments do, and that's okay too! I hope anyone who is going there the best in it, and that it does ultimately turn out better!

That's my partner Gary. He doesn't post on here and isn't as visible to as many people as I am (I deal with the "sexy" content side, so when people are asking what is going on they talk to me to find out events, not to hear about the new heat company we got last year, which is more Gary's side) but he is just as important to the show as I am.

Having said that, Gary is amazingly good at handling situations like that, and while it definitely did suck - four days before the show it was supposed to be 60 degrees out for the weekend, it was 25!! - he did a great job managing it.

Yeah, the old PAPA way was more about consistency in qualification. Having said that, many playoff systems now try to match up people going deeper and deeper into the field. If you pump and dump, but get squared up against someone who is better than you, you generally get knocked out earlier. I actually think PND used to be a more crazy format when you would get bigger and bigger placement breaks based on your position. Now, with the tournaments that start that way often taking the final 16+ and having them play head-to-head knockout matches, and your placement matters much less. I have heard a few good players say that they could care less where they qualify in that group because there is no real advantage to being in the top X other than game choice, and that isn't a big deal.

Specifically because of that change in how those formats work, I think that the PND style with PAPA may end up working out fine.

Actually, I believe we were the first to do the TV thing at one of our Midwest Gaming Classic tournaments.

PAPA does what any good organization does - they look around and incorporate and improve on what others did. We projected on a projector a couple of the finals games, but it was crazy last minute and didn't work so well for us. The format moved to other places where it works much better. We looked at improving ours, but we don't have 1 / 10th the funding that a place like PAPA does, so we had to drop the idea.

It's completely conceivable that they didn't see the screen thing because of us too. But it isn't like they have a monopoly on all tournament innovations. I still think the biggest of those was the return of the IFPA, which wasn't their thing at all.

Yup, that's what we did from what I have been told first. I see what you do as an innovation on that, but it is because it makes *sense* for a place like PAPA to do that where the goal of the event is to get people to participate in the tournament. Like I said, we did it on a limited basis once or twice, had some decent feedback on it but had no way to comfortably continue the format and no reason to pay enough money to improve it, so we opted to drop it.

For PAPA, where tournament play is their main goal, I would think it is much more likely they could and would want to do those improvements.

No matter what, I find it silly to say that PAPA introduced giant TVs to tournament play when even you state that MPE did it much larger in their second year. I actually think that it was MPE's considerably superior version that made us decide to drop it.

I disagree with this greatly. The MGC has NO payouts, yet we are still hosting tournaments that entertain over 100 people. It would be completely irresponsible for us to host a tournament where we were lenient on "details". Now, if you define details as screens with lots of different angles, sure - that doesn't make sense for us to invest in. Hell, PAPA is the same weekend as us, and Pinburgh used to always be on the same weekend as us beforehand, so a lot of big time players decided to go there anyway. But that doesn't mean that I would find it acceptable to have a bad experience just because "it's part of your ticket already."

And, from knowing other show organizers, they feel the same.

I guess I don't get your point - of course. If you take the payout part out of PAPA, are you arguing attendance would be just as strong?

The thing that is the difference between PAPA and a show, as you say, is that if the MGC had to drop the tournament (like we thought we were going to be forced to do a few years ago), we weren't worried that the show would end. Take the tournament out of PAPA, and PAPA wouldn't exist.

So what does this all mean? I have no idea. I am certain that PAPA examined all parts of their tournament and decided to make this change only after a lot of thought. And I'm sure their tournament will be just as good if not better than it was in the past. Like I also said, I am interested in it slightly less now than I was, but it isn't like I was making plans to attend any time soon anyway (doesn't help being on MGC weekend!), so I'm not their target crowd anyway.

So, interesting thing that we learned from the MGC and our "fun with the state of WI" tournament stuff... For us, what brings out the most players is diverse, yet sensible formats where everyone feels that they can play in a test of their own skill. We had to drop payouts altogether to keep the tournaments, so we worked to create fun tournament styles that could work without people paying in each time - limiting entries, limiting time while limiting overall points possible, etc. What we found is a diverse line up of tournaments, designed to give good entry points in different ways to players of all skills, were very important for people to want to participate.

Again though, I think this sort of thing is really different for each event. PAPA would not draw as many people if they were not doing everything they could to attract the best in the world to travel to play in the tournament. But I also believe they don't have too many people who go there to participate in their first tournament ever... and that's great! They do a great job at what they do!

I am personally interested to see what happens in late April after this is over and has a super exciting end to the PAPA tournament finals