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History of tournaments played are not a valid measurement for defining C division.
If I have played in the last 10 PAPAs and NEVER qualified for C, why should I be forced to move up?
Furthermore, the competition and caliber of play in B is miles ahead of C.
If you think that there is only a small gap between C and B you are sorely mistaken.
It's called the World Championships for a reason.
Anyone complaining about the field / sandbagging needs to do only one thing:
PLAY BETTER
Quoted from macbeaner:the ONLY complainers can usually be found in the C division. I wonder why that is....
fixed that for ya !
Quoted from Whysnow:It is sad that the "I'm special" collector mentality pervades through the logic on the competitive sub-culture of pinball. The best way to grow the sport is to to a better job welcoming in new people and providing them with a positive yet challenging experience which is perceived as both fun and fair.
PAPA is extremely welcoming and gives C players a near identical experience to A players.
Your comments are way off base. I think only a small percentage of non-qualifying C players will argue that the experience was anything but "positive yet challenging ... both fun and fair."
Bottom line: stop complaining and PLAY BETTER
Quoted from Whysnow:It is certian top teir egos that say stupid shit like equating a constuctive conversation as 'complaining' and only providing the template call out advice of "play better" which I was referring to as always thinking they are super important and need to protect the top teir rather than build the base.
If you care about the broader competitive pinball world then you may want to do a little introspection and ask what are you bringing to the conversation rather than just trolling.
Sounds like you are referring to me personally.
I am neither a top player nor have an ego.
Rather, my comments are based on my experiences in competitive pinball and at the PAPA facility.
I have played in Pinburgh twice and failed to qualify B twice at PAPA.
One thing I have learned is that a trip to Carnegie means you are in for the most difficult pinball tournaments available to the public - and that is part of the charm.
Regardless of your division, competition is fierce.
Adding a D division would further strain resources (volunteers / scorekeepers / etc) and is simply not necessary. Once again, this is the WORLD PINBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS. It should be, and is, tough as nails to qualify and even tougher to advance.
The Replay Foundation (PAPA) does an amazing job of growing the base; via tutorials, pinburgh, and now replay FX. The PAPA event is the premier pinball tournament that remains open to the public and it should stay that way. Watering it down further with a D division won't do much of anything, other than please the small number of sour grapes who failed to qualify C.
Speaking of introspection and trolling .... aren't you the goofball who called a 10-year old a Sandbagger at PAPA 17? Obviously you haven't changed much since then, and are still on the same page.
As you improve at competitive pinball, you won't even consider this discussion anymore.
Hence my original advice - PLAY BETTER !!
Quoted from Whysnow:You seem to be stuck on this being the PINBALL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS and thinking that is actually a big deal for anyone besides the A division.
Wrong.
Making finals or final 4 in ANY division is a huge accomplishment - kind of a big deal to everyone involved.
As for your "constructive criticism", all I hear from you and Nate Shivers is a sense of entitlement.
It's the case of - "I own pinballs, have played in tournaments, therefore I deserve to qualify and/or place at PAPA".
The reason I keep harping on the PINBALL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS is because the concept of a difficult, high-level tournament continues to elude you.
Quoted from C2CPinball:If I upvote this post, will we be friends again? (He called me out 5 minutes after I down-voted his comment about stop complaining and play better".
I think a lot of people feel very passionate about pinball, and as such, like to discuss ways to make it better, and hopefully bring more people into it. No need to be so combative.
Sure, allow me to up vote; I'm friends with anyone who loves pinball!.
From my perspective, it appears as if the "bringing new people in" argument is a thinly veiled mask for "I want a division where I can play against less skilled opponents so that I have a chance of winning."
Quoted from MikeS:Whysnow isn't petitioning for a "D" division so that he can sandbag and participate in it. He will likely compete in either C or B depending on where his IFPA ranking is at that time.
I disagree. Based on his comments after PAPA 17, and now PAPA 18, I believe Whysnow would definitely choose to compete in D division given the option - or C should more exclusions be placed on who can enter as per his requests.
I really fail to see how adding a D division would draw in new players to the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Again, it would further dilute and strain resources with no real net gain other than allowing for weaker competition in both C and D division. Everyone gets a ribbon!
Quoted from C2CPinball:they have played in C for three years in a row, and never qualified and will not move to B until they do ... I told him, he should move to B next year in my opinion.
That's just a tad silly, don't ya think?
Someone unable to qualify in C for 3 years should move up to a more skilled division?
Just because they have experience in failing?
I think to end the discussion once and for call, PAPA should remove or change the description of what C division is. Remove the "below average league or tournament experience" classification in favour of a blanket:
C Division:
Anyone who does not fit within the official descriptions of Division A or Division B caliber players, should compete here.
Problem solved.
Quoted from Whysnow:You are extremely shortsighted and don't seem to grasp any sort of reality on the current needs of competitive pinball for the big picture.
Give me a break dude.
What are you, the saviour of competitive pinball after your 12 months of experience?
Maybe you should stick to calling children names....
Quoted from C2CPinball:BUT AGAIN.... In C, my best ticket had me at 81st when I left for B... My best ticket in B put me in 76th place...
So what if B Division is easier than C Division??!?!?! .
Hey now.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. 
As far as I can tell, in your best B ticket, you scored points in only 1 of 5 games, with a total of 54 points.
To qualify, you would have needed to quadruple that point total.
How many points would you have needed to add to your best C ticket to qualify?
I bet it was a lot less than 150 
So no, B is not easier than C.
However, I would argue that the lack of experience and sheer number of players in C adds difficulty.
In C division, I imagine very few players were voiding tickets, which leads to higher scores being posted.
In B and A division, tons of entires are voided from a strategic perspective.
I don't believe the less experienced players in C are focused on the voiding strategy as much.
Also, defensive play comes into the equation a lot more in B and A.
With players looking to knock down opponents who are close to or above them in the rankings.
Quoted from Whysnow:Where is all the dilution of the experience from having a D division?
Seems like lots of easy ways to have only a small amount of effort/voulenteer time to create a D division.
Have all C and D division players use the same qualifying bank of games.
C plays 5 out of 10. $10 per ticket
D plays 4 out of 10. $15 for 2 tickets.
Tickets are split out by the software so no C tickets impact D or the inverse. They all play on the same games but are ranked seperately. If someone switches from D to C then all D tickets are voided >> same as moving to B or A.
Top 24 in C make playoffs. Top 24 in D make playoffs. D playoffs are held on the bank of senior/junior games.
The total cost on time is the added scorekeepers on Sunday for D (If I do not qualify for B or C next year I will scorekeep for the entire day).
I would suggest cash prizes for top 16 in D but they can be relatively small. I would suggest plaques go to top 16 in D and certificates to 17-24. D shuold have restrictions like 1200+ IFPA, fewer than 5 previous IFPA events, and never played at PAPA facility before.
How does this have any negative impact on anyone else? I only see a positive outcome for D players, PAPA, and competitive pinball. Also positive outcomes for C, B, and A players as more $ for the facility and tournament to operate plus gives more space, decreases total count to all other divisions (how many moved from C to B just due to # of people in C?)
Maybe you should just start your own WORLD PINBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS?
Quoted from C2CPinball:Ah man... salt in the wound... (kidding).
Yes, with all the entrants, and then a top level of great players.... I will call it. C was harder to put up a good ranking ticket than B... for me.
One of the main differences I noticed, was that in B... MOST players knew SOME of the rules to all the games. In C it was a total mixed bag... Many clearly had NO IDEA how to start modes or multiballs in some games... They were just trying to keep the ball alive... Huge spread of player knowledge/skill/pose in C.
The jump from C to B didn't seem all that big to me. If anything it was easier to get on games...
Some good points, but I think you are underestimating the level of competition in B.
Let's check out the top finishers and their WPPR rankings:
Rod Lawrence - 159
Matthew Clark - 259
Steve Walker - 340
Rob Wintler-Cox - 323
Chris Devine - 1st event
John Delzoppo - 152
Joe Geneau - 265
Brian Hill - 318
Gilles Melanson - 385
Ron Hallett Jr. - 344
Jack Tadman - 153
Jason Mawson - 453
Note there is only 1 player in the top 10 not above 400 world ranking.
The top 24 total had only 3 players not above 400 world ranking.
Do you really think it's easier to qualify against nearly all top 400 players in B, than it is in C?
By comparison, C division had 0 players ranked above 400 qualify.
Quoted from C2CPinball:Is it really that Keith, Bowen, Josh, Zach, Caley, Andrei, etc... are that much better that someone ranked at 15X just doesn't think they belong? I don't know...
Heheh did you watch those names play?
Tough act to follow, that's for sure 
And a "good ranking ticket" is pretty useless if you don't qualify.
Quoted from Whysnow:I would say yes. You have qualified consistently for your past few attempts. That seems like A calibur ready play to me.
Oh Yea, you are ready to take on the best in the world because you've qualified in B!!
CONGRATS ! Here's a certificate !
Now where's that epic face palm again?
Quoted from LOTR_breath:But I have performed poorly in the playoffs every single time(3 times to be exact). Doesn't this seem to indicate that I am a mediocre/good B div player? Why should someone who has not had a good finish in B div move to A div. To do even worse? I just don't follow the logic.
Because Whysnow and Nate said so!
I think the fundamental issue here is that the most vocal people in regards to WPPRs, tournament experience, regulations, etc, do not fully understand what separates A from B and B from C.
Quoted from movingpictures:I think the fundamental issue here is that the most vocal people in regards to WPPRs, tournament experience, regulations, etc, do not fully understand what separates A from B and B from C.
Why do you disagree with this Nate?
Whysnow just admitted he has no idea how difficult B is.
Clearly you do not either, as you claim it is less difficult than C.
If you guys had more PAPA experience under your belt, you would be more informed about what constitutes the different divisions. It is not a dig at either of you, it is merely a fact.
Quoted from bkerins:Hey, stop spelling random words with extra "u"s in them, and give me back my initials!
Hey, we have different syntax up here in the great white north 
Your initials? I was born with them buddy ! 
Where's the A in Bowen?!?!
I would challenge you to a pin death match, with the winner keeping the AJK.....
But I'm smarter than that ! (i think)
Quoted from C2CPinball:"Yes, with all the entrants, and then a top level of great players.... I will call it. C was harder to put up a good ranking ticket than B... for me."
There is no argument. You cannot argue how I feel. So stop.
Also, you are really laying on the "If you had more experience" arrogance in this thread.
From what I can see, you did not put up a good ranking ticket in B, so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion?
If you read the comments from the other PAPA vets who have chimed in with their PAPA experiences (slithering ,LOTR_Breath and vanapult) you will see it has nothing to do with arrogance. Only experience.
Quoted from C2CPinball:You just keep missing that this isn't about me... or the PAPA vets.
No, it's about newcomers who think they have all the answers with strong convictions based on what?
Arbitrary values of who should play where, disregarding the 17 year history of the event.
Quoted from C2CPinball:Did you watch the play of everyone and take notes so you could talk about it later on your podcast?
I'm sorry Nate, but your observations are not any more important than mine or anyone else's for that matter.
Hell, if we all went with your "notes", everyone who listens to your podcast would believe that Future Spa is an EM.
Experience, not arrogance.
Quoted from C2CPinball:Adam, how do you feel about players ranked higher than you playing in the C Division? Real question.
As I have said in this thread, if a player has failed to qualify or finish top 4 in B or C, they should not be forced up based on "tournament experience." That does nothing for anyone, other than make said player not want to compete again.
PAPA already has restrictions based on WPPR (which are not the be-all end-all of pinball skill rankings btw) and previous top 4 finishes.
Deciding divisions based on tournament experience makes no sense.
And adding even more stringent WPPR thresholds will only be to the detriment of the tournament.
Flynnibus said it very well:
Quoted from flynnibus:Know what will hurt competitive pinball? People being forced into playing higher priced divisions they can't be competitive in.
No one wants to put entry after entry in chasing a hopeless fight. That's less money in the prize pool and less play from the players.
The old model of 'you did well, now it's time to move up' works fine IMO.
Now how do I get on team C2C?
Will you sponsor me?
Let's grab a beer at the next event!
Quoted from C2CPinball:You are already on the team.
Sweet!!
Please PM me for the address on where to send my complimentary tshirts!
Quoted from Whysnow:like those which qualified in the bottom half of C but have no choice but to play in C
Thanks for admitting what this really is all about !
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