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It's the World Championships.
Does there really need to be multiple novice divisions?
There are many smaller tournaments nowadays where you can compete against weaker players.
But surprise, @ the World Championships there are great players in every division.
I think a D division is unnecessary.
I do agree somewhat with Taylor on the wording of the description for C.
Quoted from Whysnow:Why is it that so many hot dog players here have this attitude?
It is so odd because all of the A players I actually interacted with at PAPA were extremely nice and actually had the ability to have a constructive conversation rather than only seeing things through there A player eyes and always talking down to those that are not on the same level. They also were more than happy to share tips and tricks.
Is it just the anonymity of pinside that brings out the ego?
I'll talk strategy and rules all day, but still won't agree about a D division.
PAPA already bends over backwards to provide the intermediate and strong casual players a very serious, hugely competitive tournament in an awesome facility. C players are treated as well as the best players in the world.
They play at the same venue with the same rules using the same format...
I would expect the world championship of a game or sport to be run much more like the "other" world championship. -IFPA. Where only the highest ranking players are invited.
(The IFPA tournament does look sweet, I will have to go to it one year when I get serious about pin again).
Quoted from StevenP:I'm not sure why there are 3 separate Juniors tourneys, all on the same bank (shared with the single Seniors tourney). I think it makes sense to have just one Juniors tourney. The 3 daily tourneys was a new thing this year. If you have 3 Junior tourneys (rather than a single world Junior championship), then I think it should have restrictions (e.g., you can't play in Juniors if you ever qualified for A or B divisions at PAPA, or made B Div playoffs or qualified for A Div at Pinburgh). This would let the Juniors compete while allow the 'established' (read: better than I!) juniors to compete in the more senior divisions and not run away with the Junior titles.
BTW Whysnow, I don't think 'penultimate' means what you think it means.
Why put those restrictions on the juniors?
It is the most prestigious juniors tournament in the world - the winner should have to beat the best players in that age group.
Why would you have the juniors world championship and not let the best juniors play?
What's the point then?
Quoted from Excalabur:Fundamentally, the question is:
Why only bend over backwards for strong players? Many players are 'serious' without being good, or at least good on the standard of PAPA.
I'm not commenting on the various policy proposals. This is strictly a philosophy question.
When i say strong casual player, i mean someone who gets some replays, who know some pinball rules, who doesn't double flip.
I will word it differently.
PAPA bends over backwards for novices IMO.
They have an opportunity to qualify for the playoffs on a grand stage.
I don't think a tournament can be all things for all people.
PAPA has a very tough A division drawing many of the best players in the world.
For those who don't compete at that level, there is strong competition in B.
Finally there is C for those who don't compete at the PAPA B level.
I think, for a pinball World Championship, that is enough options.
Qualifying at PAPA should be a satisfying achievement, but if enough divisions are added, at some point it becomes watered down.
And honestly, someone who is very new to pinball shouldn't have a reasonable expectation of qualifying at PAPA.
Like the WPPR system, PAPA has already made many changes over the years to benefit the non-elite players.
To me, adding a D division is overkill.
Quoted from macbeaner:If you're a regular tournament player, you'll find that most tournaments don't give you a chance to warm up before the playoffs. PAPA is one of the few places that gives you a thirty second warm up. And in most tournament settings, ball saves are turned off and tilts are tightened. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I've played at quite a few tournaments over the last couple of years and this is becoming the standard. Kind of like using the virtual locks on Transformers or Xmen (which I hate). The number of Tilt warnings should be standard though. I don't think I've ever seen PAPA set them up other than the danger, danger, TILT. And they try to let you know if Tilt ends game (Target Pool). There are some settings (like the magnet) that it would be nice if they did let you know. But I don't think they're obligated to.
Silver Spinner has played in a few tournaments.
Personally I am against ball saves if the game has a manual plunger or if the plunge feeds the inlane.
Quoted from StevenP:I guess I wasn't clear. If there is a SINGLE Junior tournament/title (as with the Seniors) then yeah, there should be no restriction. But with THREE daily Junior tourneys, there is no one "best Junior in the world" title, and it seems the 3 tourneys were implemented to allow more juniors a chance to win something. If that's a case, then let the "pro-level" juniors compete at the pro level, and let the up-and-coming juniors compete for those daily titles. I can see a case where someone like, say, Josh H, could simply take all 3 daily titles. Where's the "spreading the joy" in that?
Well, the other finalists got to compete with the best junior in the word. That's pretty exciting.
The playoffs and finals are only 3 games long. Anyone can have a bad game or two.
Quoted from macbeaner:I honestly think that Replay, PAPA, etc wants to grow pinball. hence the circuit, hence PAPAtv, hence the changes to PAPA this year. If you don't grow it and bring new players in, then 10 years from now, there will be no PAPA.
I think a novice division isn't a bad thing. because you want to bring those new players in and give them the experience of competing in a major tournament. And feel like they have a chance to succeed. Otherwise, they'll play one year, go "this isn't worth it, I have NO chance" and they won't ever go back.
That's my same argument for a women's division. Not that I don't think I can't compete with the men. But look at the last 10 years of PAPA. How many women have actually qualified in A, B and C? Not too many. I see lots of ladies coming in with their significant other, but they don't want to compete against all the guys. They get bored of wandering around the facility or end up going to tour Pittsburgh or hang out in a hotel. Heck, that's why I scorekeep. If you give them a division, they might feel more comfortable competing against each other, initially. If there were a womens division, you would be drawing new people into the sport, who down the road, may feel more comfortable entering C or B, once they get that tournament experience under their belt and feel more comfortable with their skills. I think that's the logic for the juniors division. To bring in the younger generation. If you don't appeal to them, again, PAPA, pinball, etc, will die in 10 years.
Helena Walter won B a few years ago.
And I'm sure many other women have qualified in B and C.
If another division is added, it makes it that much harder to place people in the correct division.
People in this thread seem to think that WPPR rankings can solve that.
However, there are many players who don't play in tournaments or leagues and have probably never heard of a WPPR point, that could qualify in C. Some of these location players have the ability to qualify in B and possibly A.
A lot of good players that I meet on location are not aware of tournaments or rankings.
A good location player could show up to PAPA, decide to play in the D division because it is her first tournament, when she is really good enough to play in B.
Quoted from C2CPinball:I said to put up a good ranking ticket... I really don't expect to qualify... Trust me, my first couple of tickets in B were a total waste as I had all the nerves of (MAN, I DO NOT BELONG HERE), until I saw that the play wasn't all that crazy... Way more consistent, for sure, but not light years ahead of what I had just seen in C.
Consistency is the toughest part of PAPA.
My point is not about winning here, it's about balance. Pinball is in a strange spot in regards to the competitive side. We all want growth, and exposure(don't we?), but there are some huge divides. I think it is strange that someone ranked as the 15X player in the world, wouldn't want to take a shot at the A Division... Is it money? Is it just being scared? Is it really that Keith, Bowen, Josh, Zach, Caley, Andrei, etc... are that much better that someone ranked at 15X just doesn't think they belong? I don't know...
It has been this way for years for years.
KME, BEK, LFS, NES, Paul Madison and others are legendary.
Good players would choose to play in B rather than face the intimidating elite.
People who finished in the top four at PAPA would play in A the next year, not qualify, then go back to B, as the rules allowed at the time.
In the old Pinburgh days players waited until they were forced into A (by winning B) to move up.
Being ranked in the top 15x does not mean that a player is necessarily almost as good as Jorian, IFK, Roy Wils, or Cayle. It could just mean that the player played well in many local tournaments.
At the time that the WPPRs came out, I was playing in more tournaments than almost anyone.
This gave me a very high ranking.
But I never decieved myself and knew that I was not as skilled as Bowen, Belsito, Lyman, Elwin, etc.
Quoted from macbeaner:I believe she won at Pinburgh, I don't think she won PAPA, but I could be wrong. And I didn't say they didn't qualify. I forget what the statistics are. Someone actually did them as research for a justification for a women's division.
Helena won PAPA B in 2005.
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