(Topic ID: 100579)

PAPA 17 >> what a blast


By Whysnow

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 338 posts
  • 71 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by robotronjohn
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 8 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    0734a49.jpg
    Quadruple.png
    image.jpg
    papa.jpg
    IMG_4289.JPG
    IMG_4272.JPG
    image-372.jpg
    image.jpg

    There are 338 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 7.
    #301 6 years ago
    Quoted from TomGWI:

    Question: what is a classics I, II & III (1,2,3)?
    I know they are earlier games but I noticed a lot of the same players were in the different groups.

    I on Thursday, II on Friday, III on Saturday.

    they are just 3 1-day mini/side events. Qualifying and playoffs all happen in a single day. They are for IFPA points and you get to hang with the big dogs and learn some cool stuff.

    #302 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I on Thursday, II on Friday, III on Saturday.
    they are just 3 1-day mini/side events. Qualifying and playoffs all happen in a single day. They are for IFPA points and you get to hang with the big dogs and learn some cool stuff.

    Thanks .

    #303 6 years ago

    Will there ever be again individual videos of the Classics with commentary similar to what was done in the past? Thinking of Steve Bowden, etc., in PAPA 14 on Monaco, Cayle George on Surf Champ, etc.. Those were very cool..

    #304 6 years ago

    I have a question/statement issue with the IFPA points awarded to only the A division. I tried to pose this issue to some of the PAPA people I spoke with and I believe some thought I was having a sour grapes issue. (I got caught in the "you can't switch after noon on Saturday" rule) Not knowing the rule was on me and I don't have a problem with it and understand why the rule was implimented (someone did take the time to explain the craziness in the past of people switching at the last minute). I think the problem occurs with the IFPA points being awarded to only the A division because it is an open tournament. B and C don't get points due to the restrictions of competitors that can play in those divisions making them closed tournaments. However, once noon on Saturday rolls around the A division becomes a closed tournament excluding some of the best competitive players. A person who hasn't competed yet could still walk in the door and compete but player #999 who just played in B div can not. Does this not cause an conundrum?

    No I'm not saying points should be taken away from A div players or given to B and C div players from this year. I just thought it was worth a discussion for future reference of both PAPA and IFPA. If I'm way off base here tell me where my flaw in reasoning is. It is just something that made me go "hmmm?" when I realized it.

    #305 6 years ago
    Quoted from KingNine:

    I have a question/statement issue with the IFPA points awarded to only the A division. I tried to pose this issue to some of the PAPA people I spoke with and I believe some thought I was having a sour grapes issue. (I got caught in the "you can't switch after noon on Saturday" rule) Not knowing the rule was on me and I don't have a problem with it and understand why the rule was implimented (someone did take the time to explain the craziness in the past of people switching at the last minute). I think the problem occurs with the IFPA points being awarded to only the A division because it is an open tournament. B and C don't get points due to the restrictions of competitors that can play in those divisions making them closed tournaments. However, once noon on Saturday rolls around the A division becomes a closed tournament excluding some of the best competitive players. A person who hasn't competed yet could still walk in the door and compete but player #999 who just played in B div can not. Does this not cause an conundrum?
    No I'm not saying points should be taken away from A div players or given to B and C div players from this year. I just thought it was worth a discussion for future reference of both PAPA and IFPA. If I'm way off base here tell me where my flaw in reasoning is. It is just something that made me go "hmmm?" when I realized it.

    Just play in the division you should be playing in. If you want A points than play in A. Good god people.

    #306 6 years ago

    A division is an open tournament. Anyone who wants to can sign up for it by noon on Saturday. The restriction on players changing divisions after noon on Saturday does not prevent players from choosing to play A before noon on Saturday.

    #307 6 years ago
    Quoted from KingNine:

    I have a question/statement issue with the IFPA points awarded to only the A division. I tried to pose this issue to some of the PAPA people I spoke with and I believe some thought I was having a sour grapes issue. (I got caught in the "you can't switch after noon on Saturday" rule) Not knowing the rule was on me and I don't have a problem with it and understand why the rule was implimented (someone did take the time to explain the craziness in the past of people switching at the last minute). I think the problem occurs with the IFPA points being awarded to only the A division because it is an open tournament. B and C don't get points due to the restrictions of competitors that can play in those divisions making them closed tournaments. However, once noon on Saturday rolls around the A division becomes a closed tournament excluding some of the best competitive players. A person who hasn't competed yet could still walk in the door and compete but player #999 who just played in B div can not. Does this not cause an conundrum?
    No I'm not saying points should be taken away from A div players or given to B and C div players from this year. I just thought it was worth a discussion for future reference of both PAPA and IFPA. If I'm way off base here tell me where my flaw in reasoning is. It is just something that made me go "hmmm?" when I realized it.

    More importantly than "play in the division you should be playing in," the non-issue here is: each player has a choice to play in the highest division. Every single player that CHOSE to play in B or C had the option to play in A when they CHOSE their division. PAPA is nice enough, and has sophisticated systems that even allow a player to change their mind 2+ days into a 3-day qualifying period to play in a higher division.

    Your statement that A becomes a closed tournament excluding some of the best competitive players is a complete fallacy. Each and every hypothetical player #999 that played in B had an equal opportunity/choice to play in the top division.

    #308 6 years ago

    "A person who hasn't competed yet could still walk in the door and compete but player #999 who just played in B div can not. Does this not cause an conundrum?"

    Is there really a difference in how a person is treated? I do not know the rules for switching at PAPA.

    Ex 1: person arrives on Saturday at 2pm and they are allowed to sign up and play in A?

    Ex 2: person played in C or B on Thursday/Friday and then on Saturday at 2pm they want to sign up for A and are denied?

    If that is the case, then I would say that per the letter of the IFPA that is a restricted event and should not award IFPA points. My understanding is that you have to treat all players identically regardless of previous experience.

    I think the litmus test question for the IFPA status of any event was something like "Can player X win/play in an event and have equal chance as player Y?" If there is a discrepancy in allowing people into A division then that does in fact create an issue that should be addressed for future years.

    They should probably just make it a noon cutoff for all divisions and all people in order to be both fair and even across all divisions. Just state that you must play you first game in any division by noon on Saturday for any entries to count.

    #309 6 years ago

    Someone playing in B or C had the chance to play in A at anytime prior to the cutoff.
    Opportunity given.

    #310 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    Someone playing in B or C had the chance to play in A at anytime prior to the cutoff.
    Opportunity given.

    I believe the issue is around the restriction against someone that was playing in B versus someone that has not played at all?

    Sounds like the issue is not surrounding the previous opportunity being afforded?

    I actually think it would be a good idea to prevent any moving/starting of ANY division at a predetermined cutoff time. Given the nature of the beast people leaving a division are likely to have a larger impact on the division they are leaving than the one they are moving to. Seems logical to me to solidify that cutoff time for all divisions.

    #311 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    "A person who hasn't competed yet could still walk in the door and compete but player #999 who just played in B div can not. Does this not cause an conundrum?"
    Is there really a difference in how a person is treated? I do not know the rules for switching at PAPA.
    Ex 1: person arrives on Saturday at 2pm and they are allowed to sign up and play in A?
    Ex 2: person played in C or B on Thursday/Friday and then on Saturday at 2pm they want to sign up for A and are denied?

    The person who picked B or C early in the tournament are given plenty of time to change their mind before the cut off. PAPA's rules are published well in advanced.

    If that is the case, then I would say that per the letter of the IFPA that is a restricted event and should not award IFPA points. My understanding is that you have to treat all players identically regardless of previous experience.

    This "issue" is getting really, really nit-picky, but given that the rules are known well in advance, the issue is only caused by the player that didn't follow the rules and take the opportunity that was given to them.

    If the rules stated that you must declare prior to the tournament and you are stuck with that decision, I might agree somewhat, but that isn't the case here.

    They should probably just make it a noon cutoff for all divisions and all people in order to be both fair and even across all divisions. Just state that you must play you first game in any division by noon on Saturday for any entries to count.

    And what does this accomplish, besides turning people away from competitive pinball?

    #312 6 years ago
    Quoted from KingNine:

    I have a question/statement issue with the IFPA points awarded to only the A division. I tried to pose this issue to some of the PAPA people I spoke with and I believe some thought I was having a sour grapes issue. (I got caught in the "you can't switch after noon on Saturday" rule) Not knowing the rule was on me and I don't have a problem with it and understand why the rule was implimented (someone did take the time to explain the craziness in the past of people switching at the last minute). I think the problem occurs with the IFPA points being awarded to only the A division because it is an open tournament. B and C don't get points due to the restrictions of competitors that can play in those divisions making them closed tournaments. However, once noon on Saturday rolls around the A division becomes a closed tournament excluding some of the best competitive players. A person who hasn't competed yet could still walk in the door and compete but player #999 who just played in B div can not. Does this not cause an conundrum?

    Like most have said, anyone that was at PAPA playing for 2 days had plenty of time to compete in the A division if they wanted to make the move. There was no restriction for your inability to move to A based on skill, age, gender . . . you simply didn't follow the written rules of the tournament that included the time availability to change divisions.

    Many of the 'open' rules of a tournament can be nitpicked to death.

    Pinburgh isn't really an open tournament if it's capped at 700 players. If the 701st player wants to play and aren't allowed to . . . is it really an event open to anyone that wants to play?

    In the future if you want to join those that migrate to PAPA A as late as possible for the WPPR grab, just make sure you follow the rules of the tournament as to when that option is still available. The fact the PAPA staff allows people to make that switch at all after declaring a division is an extremely nice opportunity for those that really think they chose an inappropriate division. There's nothing that the time cutoff does that would make the IFPA not endorse this tournament.

    #313 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    There's nothing that the time cutoff does that would make the IFPA not endorse this tournament.

    And that is all the clarification that is needed. Thanks Josh.

    Quoted from Zaxxis:

    And what does this accomplish, besides turning people away from competitive pinball?

    consistency is ALWAYS good when running any competitive event. Removing even preceived bias is best practice IMHO. I do not think a noon cutoff for all divisions will have any impact on turning away people. My guess is nobody shows up at 2pm Saturday to play competively, but I am sure the PAPA guys can look at the data and make the best decision very quickly.

    If noon does then just move it to 4pm on Saturday.

    I guess the inverse quesiton would be "WHY a noon cutoff time?"

    #314 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I believe the issue is around the restriction against someone that was playing in B versus someone that has not played at all?
    Sounds like the issue is not surrounding the previous opportunity being afforded?
    I actually think it would be a good idea to prevent any moving/starting of ANY division at a predetermined cutoff time. Given the nature of the beast people leaving a division are likely to have a larger impact on the division they are leaving than the one they are moving to. Seems logical to me to solidify that cutoff time for all divisions.

    The restriction is so that you don't f up the B or C divisions. Division jumping at the last moment has the potential to create total chaos out of the lower groups.

    #315 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    The restriction is so that you don't f up the B division. Division jumping at the last moment has the potential to create total chaos out of the lower groups.

    completely agree!!! I actually would prefer an earlier jumping time cutoff for personal reasons.

    #316 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    And that is all the clarification that is needed. Thanks Josh.

    I guess the inverse quesiton would be "WHY a noon cutoff time?"

    Likely to keep a bunch of B and C division players from trying an "A" ticket at 10:00 p.m. on Saturday since they didn't make the cut in the div the played in all weekend. All of the divisions are crowded with players Saturday night trying to make the cut and to have a large in-rush of players trying an "A" ticket last-minute prevents those that played "A" all weekend from being able to get on a machine.

    #317 6 years ago

    makes sense to me.

    Also makes sense to apply that restriction all divisions for consistency. JMO.

    #318 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Like most have said, anyone that was at PAPA playing for 2 days had plenty of time to compete in the A division if they wanted to make the move. There was no restriction for your inability to move to A based on skill, age, gender . . . you simply didn't follow the written rules of the tournament that included the time availability to change divisions.
    Many of the 'open' rules of a tournament can be nitpicked to death.
    Pinburgh isn't really an open tournament if it's capped at 700 players. If the 701st player wants to play and aren't allowed to . . . is it really an event open to anyone that wants to play?
    In the future if you want to join those that migrate to PAPA A as late as possible for the WPPR grab, just make sure you follow the rules of the tournament as to when that option is still available. The fact the PAPA staff allows people to make that switch at all after declaring a division is an extremely nice opportunity for those that really think they chose an inappropriate division. There's nothing that the time cutoff does that would make the IFPA not endorse this tournament.

    Thanks Josh,

    I see that it is open. When I realized at the event that it had been closed off to all who where there at a certain point in time it seemed closed to me which I thought caused an issue I wanted to address with you. It had nothing to do with me wanting points like a few people alluded to. I was just worried about the integrity of the system going forward if it was deemed that the rules made it a closed tournament. I probably shouldn't have even put the fact that I got caught in the time rule as it really had no impact on the question i was possing but I like to explain things too much. I was newbie to PAPA this year and have never seen or played in a tournament like it. It is so unique and quite challenging and I loved every minute of it. Thanks again for addressing my concern.

    #319 6 years ago

    good for you to question and ensure the integrity is upheld! It is always good to have people making sure things are on the up and up, and all things are accounted for. It is very easy when running an event to be stuck on your own mindset and completely overlook what is obvious to someone else. We all learn by asking these questions!

    #320 6 years ago
    Quoted from DrJoe:

    Likely to keep a bunch of B and C division players from trying an "A" ticket at 10:00 p.m. on Saturday since they didn't make the cut in the div the played in all weekend. All of the divisions are crowded with players Saturday night trying to make the cut and to have a large in-rush of players trying an "A" ticket last-minute prevents those that played "A" all weekend from being able to get on a machine.

    This was put into place a few years ago when that pretty much happened. A few players weren't going to make it in their division, so they said "hey! Why not go play A" at like the very last minute.

    If any of you watched the live tutorial last night on PAPAtv, Mark talked about rulings, etc, when someone asked him what players could do to make things go smoother for the tournament staff. check it out. I think it would help a lot with some of the questions you guys have been having.

    It's archived on Twitch.

    #321 6 years ago
    Quoted from macbeaner:

    It's archived on Twitch.

    Do you have a link?

    #323 6 years ago
    Quoted from Snailman:

    More importantly than "play in the division you should be playing in," the non-issue here is: each player has a choice to play in the highest division. Every single player that CHOSE to play in B or C had the option to play in A when they CHOSE their division. PAPA is nice enough, and has sophisticated systems that even allow a player to change their mind 2+ days into a 3-day qualifying period to play in a higher division.
    Your statement that A becomes a closed tournament excluding some of the best competitive players is a complete fallacy. Each and every hypothetical player #999 that played in B had an equal opportunity/choice to play in the top division.

    Thanks Collin. It makes perfect sense now. I was just preoccupied with the closing part and not looking at the whole thing. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't an issue that needed to be addressed.

    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    Just play in the division you should be playing in. If you want A points than play in A. Good god people.

    That's constructive and helpful how?

    #324 6 years ago

    I am a little late to the conversation, but I would like to add my 2 cents.
    I started playing pinball in February, went to my first pinball tournament in May. I never played much pinball when I was a kid. Honestly, it was too hard. I wanted to play Mortal Kombat, sports games, ticket games, Skee-Ball. All those. Now I am an adult (in age, at least) and I don't play any video games or arcade games anymore. Now pinball comes along, and I'm hooked!
    I hear about PAPA. I'm super excited. With 4 tournaments under my belt, my best finish was 21st.
    I drive the 12 hours round trip, all on Thursday, to attend Thursday only. I had a wedding to go to that weekend, so I play 1 C ticket, and 3 Classics I tickets. I had a blast. In between my entries in Classic and C, I got to play so many other pins that I will never see again.
    Classics I. I had a terrible first ticket (Derby Day?!?! Come on) Second ticket, I get a pretty good Alien Poker score and finish in the top 30. I know everyone was playing more than 1 ticket, but top 30 on Alien Poker beat 2 out of Josh Sharpe's 3 scores, as well as other people who usually compete in the A divisions. Sweet!
    With C, there were some people in there that would crush me. Buying only 1 ticket, and totally blowing it, I got a Zero and tied for last with 20 or 30 other people.
    Next year, I will be better, but still not good enough to crack the top 24. Perhaps I will play 1 C ticket, 1 B ticket, then 1 A ticket.
    That sounds like a nice idea for me, and it will work for my situation. Grind for those WPPR points.
    Just one opinion from a player who has no chance to crack the top 24 in any of the divisions.

    #325 6 years ago
    Quoted from KingNine:

    Thanks Collin. It makes perfect sense now. I was just preoccupied with the closing part and not looking at the whole thing. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't an issue that needed to be addressed.

    That's constructive and helpful how?

    If I helped one person by pointing out the obvious I feel like I did my part.

    #326 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    makes sense to me.
    Also makes sense to apply that restriction all divisions for consistency. JMO.

    Can you go from A to b or c?

    #327 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    Can you go from A to b or c?

    no idea? but I am guessing not. I am sure there is something in the rules, but unfortunately PAPA is blocked at work so can't check right now.

    #328 6 years ago

    The general rule is that you cannot move DOWN divisions.

    #329 6 years ago

    For a first time visit I like the idea of playing a set in the three divisions. Not only do you get to play a larger variety of pins in a competitive setting but it seems the rules/setups are progressively harder.

    Quoted from funtimewithdave:

    Next year, I will be better, but still not good enough to crack the top 24. Perhaps I will play 1 C ticket, 1 B ticket, then 1 A ticket.
    That sounds like a nice idea for me, and it will work for my situation. Grind for those WPPR points.
    Just one opinion from a player who has no chance to crack the top 24 in any of the divisions.

    #330 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    Can you go from A to b or c?

    No. Moving downward with out a ruling from PAPA is not allowed.

    #331 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    If I helped one person by pointing out the obvious I feel like I did my part.

    Well your statement in general is kind of true and I agree with it for the most part. I just didn't see the relevance to my post at all. When followed by the exclamation at the end of it it seemed as if you were implying that I was "less than smart".

    FWIW I would have no problem with PAPA making it where no one can switch once the decission is made to play a division. It would really make people choose more carefully and eliminate a lot of problems.

    #332 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    If noon does then just move it to 4pm on Saturday.
    I guess the inverse quesiton would be "WHY a noon cutoff time?"

    Because noon felt like a good time that would give B and C folks enough time to decide to move up or not as well as enough time for any movers to not seriously impact the standings.

    The rule was put into place after PAPA 12, when a bunch of people moved up to A division around 7pm on Saturday. Typically people moving have a small impact, but it were the right people with the right scores and they actually did have an impact to the standings. In fact, I was the #1 qualifier all weekend and ended up in 6th or 7th after "the purge", ultimately bouncing back up until Walker put up a great run very late in the evening.

    #333 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    Can you go from A to b or c?

    Actually, the have been people that have moved down in the past, but I am not sure if any happened in recent years.

    #334 6 years ago
    Quoted from Zaxxis:

    Actually, the have been people that have moved down in the past, but I am not sure if any happened in recent years.

    From the PAPA website:

    "A player may choose to move to a higher skill division, automatically voiding all entries in lower divisions (no refunds are provided), but no player may move to a lower division without special permission from tournament officials."

    #335 6 years ago
    Quoted from KingNine:

    Well your statement in general is kind of true and I agree with it for the most part. I just didn't see the relevance to my post at all. When followed by the exclamation at the end of it it seemed as if you were implying that I was "less than smart".
    FWIW I would have no problem with PAPA making it where no one can switch once the decission is made to play a division. It would really make people choose more carefully and eliminate a lot of problems.

    my apologies for that.

    Quoted from Zaxxis:

    Actually, the have been people that have moved down in the past, but I am not sure if any happened in recent years.

    I wouldn't let anyone move up or down as it, from my understanding, throws out the scores from the prior group. Seems like that could really screw up strategic game choices by players. Ugh. I'll stick to Pinburgh.

    #336 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    I wouldn't let anyone move up or down as it, from my understanding, throws out the scores from the prior group. Seems like that could really screw up strategic game choices by players. Ugh. I'll stick to Pinburgh.

    Pinburgh's great, but I doubt with the current time cutoff to move that there's that much impact in moving players these days for PAPA. The mass exodus for unqualified players was certainly a problem in the past and is why the restriction exists now.

    #337 6 years ago

    I have to choose between PAPA and TPF....I'm gonna go to TPF. I start getting a third week of vaction next year, but I can't allot it until october. I have two applications out for MUCH better paying jobs, so travel might be more of an option. Pinburgh/REPLAY, maybe? : |

    #338 6 years ago

    I had the best time at PAPA this year. Looking forward to more...

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    £ 37.00
    Lighting - Led
    PinballToys
    $ 29.50
    Cabinet - Decals
    Pinball Haus
    $ 149.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 29.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    From: $ 35.00
    Cabinet - Other
    Pinball Mod Co.
    $ 19.95
    $ 30.00
    Electronics
    Third Coast Pinball
    $ 27.50
    $ 200.00
    Lighting - Interactive
    Professor Pinball
    $ 115.00
    Cabinet Parts
    Merf's Pins
    From: $ 41.00
    $ 4.49
    Electronics
    Yorktown Arcade Supply
    $ 19.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    € 159.00
    Cabinet - Toppers
    FlipperLED
    $ 495.00
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    MI Pinball Refinery
    $ 7.00
    Various Other Swag
    Project Pinball Charity
    $ 20.00
    $ 5,999.00
    Pinball Machine
    The Pinball Place
    $ 145.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    $ 89.99
    Lighting - Led
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 89.99
    Lighting - Led
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 125.00
    $ 625.00
    Flipper Parts
    Mircoplayfields
    $ 15.00
    Playfield - Other
    YouBentMyWookie
    $ 84.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    $ 10.00
    Cabinet - Decals
    Pinball Haus
    $ 150.00
    $ 999.00
    There are 338 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 7.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside