Hey now.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
As far as I can tell, in your best B ticket, you scored points in only 1 of 5 games, with a total of 54 points.
To qualify, you would have needed to quadruple that point total.
How many points would you have needed to add to your best C ticket to qualify?
I bet it was a lot less than 150

So no, B is not easier than C.
However, I would argue that the lack of experience and sheer number of players in C adds difficulty.
In C division, I imagine very few players were voiding tickets, which leads to higher scores being posted.
In B and A division, tons of entires are voided from a strategic perspective.
I don't believe the less experienced players in C are focused on the voiding strategy as much.

Also, defensive play comes into the equation a lot more in B and A.
With players looking to knock down opponents who are close to or above them in the rankings.

Whysnow has done a lot to promote pinball in my area. Next month is the 3rd annual Madrollin Pinball tournament which he started. He also has 2 games on route and runs a monthly tournament which has been successful in bringing in new players. He's run other tournaments as well and has helped out with other tournaments such as MGC and Waunabowl tourney. I'd say that's quite a lot, and I applaud him for what he's done in a fairly short amount of time.

Maybe you should just start your own WORLD PINBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS?

Ah man... salt in the wound... (kidding).

Yes, with all the entrants, and then a top level of great players.... I will call it. C was harder to put up a good ranking ticket than B... for me.

One of the main differences I noticed, was that in B... MOST players knew SOME of the rules to all the games. In C it was a total mixed bag... Many clearly had NO IDEA how to start modes or multiballs in some games... They were just trying to keep the ball alive... Huge spread of player knowledge/skill/pose in C.

The jump from C to B didn't seem all that big to me. If anything it was easier to get on games...

Some good points, but I think you are underestimating the level of competition in B.
Let's check out the top finishers and their WPPR rankings:

Rod Lawrence - 159
Matthew Clark - 259
Steve Walker - 340
Rob Wintler-Cox - 323
Chris Devine - 1st event
John Delzoppo - 152
Joe Geneau - 265
Brian Hill - 318
Gilles Melanson - 385
Ron Hallett Jr. - 344
Jack Tadman - 153
Jason Mawson - 453

Note there is only 1 player in the top 10 not above 400 world ranking.
The top 24 total had only 3 players not above 400 world ranking.

Do you really think it's easier to qualify against nearly all top 400 players in B, than it is in C?
By comparison, C division had 0 players ranked above 400 qualify.

Helena Walter won B a few years ago.

And I'm sure many other women have qualified in B and C.

If another division is added, it makes it that much harder to place people in the correct division.

People in this thread seem to think that WPPR rankings can solve that.
However, there are many players who don't play in tournaments or leagues and have probably never heard of a WPPR point, that could qualify in C. Some of these location players have the ability to qualify in B and possibly A.

A lot of good players that I meet on location are not aware of tournaments or rankings.

A good location player could show up to PAPA, decide to play in the D division because it is her first tournament, when she is really good enough to play in B.

I said to put up a good ranking ticket... I really don't expect to qualify... Trust me, my first couple of tickets in B were a total waste as I had all the nerves of (MAN, I DO NOT BELONG HERE), until I saw that the play wasn't all that crazy... Way more consistent, for sure, but not light years ahead of what I had just seen in C.

Consistency is the toughest part of PAPA.

My point is not about winning here, it's about balance. Pinball is in a strange spot in regards to the competitive side. We all want growth, and exposure(don't we?), but there are some huge divides. I think it is strange that someone ranked as the 15X player in the world, wouldn't want to take a shot at the A Division... Is it money? Is it just being scared? Is it really that Keith, Bowen, Josh, Zach, Caley, Andrei, etc... are that much better that someone ranked at 15X just doesn't think they belong? I don't know...

Heheh did you watch those names play?
Tough act to follow, that's for sure

And a "good ranking ticket" is pretty useless if you don't qualify.

I don't really care what happens regarding a D division. It seems unnecessary, but the PAPA staff will ultimately do what they think is best, and I'm sure it will be the right decision because they know what they're doing.

This is just my own personal experience at PAPA, which may parallel the experience of others, but at the very least it will illustrate one person's approach of how to compete at the world championships.

PAPA 15 - I had played in one league and "kind of" knew some competitive strategy. I tried 2 entries in C division and voided both because I was embarrassed of how poorly I played and got sick of standing in line to finish out a garbage ticket. The games were set up tough and I played way below my personal expectations. I saw some serious players in C and knew that I needed to up my game. Spent the rest of the weekend playing casual games and just learning more about the machines I didn't have regular access to.

PAPA 16 - I had a couple more leagues under my belt and a handful of local tournaments at this point. I felt confident I was ready to try B division, despite my previous failure in C. I ended up somewhere around 30th, but felt that I was competing at the correct level and always felt "one good game" out of a qualifying ticket.

PAPA 17 - Restricted to B, which is where I would have chosen to play anyway. Qualified for the playoffs and ended up finishing in the top 8. Felt personally satisfied with my quality of play in a pretty challenging field of talent.

PAPA 18 - We'll see where the restrictions end up next time, but I feel on the bubble of crossing over into A. If I'm not pushed there by restrictions, it will ultimately depend on the game banks and which one I feel more comfortable with.

So if that was all tl;dr for you - I showed up, realized I wasn't as good as I thought, learned to PLAY BETTER and got results. YMMV

Edit: I also took two trips to Pinburgh as a spectator / casual player before I even competed in ANYTHING. Just having access to the collection and watching the world's best was enough to get me interested in eventually joining as a tournament player. So there are more ways to grow the sport from novice player's perspective than by offering a "novice division". I know I wouldn't have even joined that at the time as I was just more focused on playing as many new (to me) games as possible.

It has been this way for years for years.
KME, BEK, LFS, NES, Paul Madison and others are legendary.

Good players would choose to play in B rather than face the intimidating elite.

People who finished in the top four at PAPA would play in A the next year, not qualify, then go back to B, as the rules allowed at the time.

In the old Pinburgh days players waited until they were forced into A (by winning B) to move up.

Being ranked in the top 15x does not mean that a player is necessarily almost as good as Jorian, IFK, Roy Wils, or Cayle. It could just mean that the player played well in many local tournaments.

At the time that the WPPRs came out, I was playing in more tournaments than almost anyone.
This gave me a very high ranking.
But I never decieved myself and knew that I was not as skilled as Bowen, Belsito, Lyman, Elwin, etc.

I don't think this is a fair generalization to make. I'm not special, I don't think many (if any) A players feel that way either, and high-quality events need to satisfy new and casual players above all others. Pretty much any tournament anyone throws, I'm going to enjoy, so I'm not the target audience for growing competitive events. The style and format of events and leagues I have worked with also bear this out; if new people aren't having fun, something is wrong.

OK, for a moment, let's forget all the divisions. If I was a new pinball player just returning to pinball or getting into competitive pinball for the first time (oh wait, I am, lol), I would be overwhelmed by the tournament.

What if, during the event, there was single game mini tournaments? An announcement is made that a mini tournament is beginning on game X. Instead of going up to the counter to by an entry, you just show up at the machine with your tokens, Everyone who wants in takes a turn, the winner gets a shirt and a couple stickers. Most of the "tournament" players will either be busy in their division or not interested in a shirt and stickers but it would be really fun for any of the casual players, new players, pinball widows, kids etc.

Score could even be kept just like in the divisions, so people could get used to the scoring. The mini tournaments could run throughout the event with the points winner getting a small prize or plaque per day. There was alot of machines available for play on the floor all the time. The scorekeeper could even go over some of the rules and strategy beforehand.

Another idea might be some sort of 'introduction to pinball' seminar daily where flipper skills are demonstrated on an overhead screen and things like modes are explained. Maybe even cover the tournament scoring structure. Heck, I didn't really understand why I would void a ticket until the ride home.

I'm not moving to A division unless I have to

Holy cow. This thread took a drink of Red Bull while I wasn't looking.

Things I know:
1. Division C description will be amended (yet again).
2. Future restrictions will be based off of overall WPPR rank, not total number of tournaments played.

Things I suspect:
1. Division D, if enacted, would function on the same bank of games as Juniors and Seniors. We will need to see if there's a way to expand the area to make it palatable space-wise. I *think* it's possible, but I don't have that answer yet.
2. The creation of a Division D has more to do with maximizing the available space and resources than it does with problems in how Division C is structured. Tournament space on the red carpet needs to be used to its maximum potential, and currently Jr's & Sr's is the slowest division. If adding a Division D (assuming all other variables are worked out successfully) will help alleviate some of the crunch in Division C and perhaps lead to more new players overall, we will do it.

There's still a lot of issues that need to be worked out internally before this option becomes a reality. Just know that we're listening and always want to improve.

Thanks for breaking down your PAPA journey! I will do the same......
PAPA12 - I had zero league experience, zero tournament experience. Just started collecting games but I had been playing pinball since the '70's. I chose to play B division. I finished in mid-pack.
PAPA13 - After PAPA12 I went home and started a league. Three seasons later it's time to play B division again. I came close to qualifying but my best ticket eventually fell to 23rd in the Saturday night beat down!
PAPA14 - After another year of league and a few other tournaments it's time for B again. I qualified 13th. Got crushed in the first round of finals and finished 13th.
PAPA15 - Now league is going strong and I've had some minimal success at other tourneys and some PAPA circuit events. Time to try B again. I qualified 6th! I got squashed in the first round of playoffs again. I finished 13th.
PAPA16 - I was unable to attend.
PAPA17 - Now I have had many years of league experience. I had a very solid Circuit event where I was 2nd in Classics and 4th in the Main. My WPPR ranking now around 125. Time to try B again! I really struggled to qualify but squeaked in to qualify 21st. AGAIN, I got crushed in the first round of the playoffs and finished 19th.
PAPA18? I'm obviously a B div player. Should I try it again or jump to A div? Arguments could be made for both sides. Of course, if I get my WPPR to sub-100 then I won't have a choice to make, will I?

Also, to the person who said splitting jr's into three days was intended to make it easier on new parents, you are correct. We were losing interested families because they didn't want to have to attend four straight days. Splitting juniors up allowed us to introduce more people to the hobby, albeit at the expense of the crowning of one single champion. In the end, we made the decision to err on the side of introducing new players.

It also gives young players more opportunity to compete in a higher-pressure finals round.

People do this kind of stuff fairly frequently. E-mail me when it gets closer with your ideas, and we'll work out the details. Sharpe e-mailed me a while back, and this is exactly how Pinbrawl got started at PAPA.

I always felt someone should organize a scavenger hunt... JT, I'm looking at you.

Yes, but have I had any real success in B division at PAPA? That is the question.

Oh Yea, you are ready to take on the best in the world because you've qualified in B!!
CONGRATS ! Here's a certificate !

Now where's that epic face palm again?

But I have performed poorly in the playoffs every single time(3 times to be exact). Doesn't this seem to indicate that I am a mediocre/good B div player? Why should someone who has not had a good finish in B div move to A div. To do even worse? I just don't follow the logic.

You still crowned a single champion

While waiting to play Mustang in the B bank, I let someone else go ahead of me because I couldn't take my eyes of Escher nailing the Dr. Who loop about 100 times in a row. Sonic Booms all over the place. That kid is unreal.

Because Whysnow and Nate said so!

I think the fundamental issue here is that the most vocal people in regards to WPPRs, tournament experience, regulations, etc, do not fully understand what separates A from B and B from C.

100 is probably a good cutoff for now. I like the ifpa ranking restrictions across the board.

B is F*&%ing tough!

Why do you disagree with this Nate?
Whysnow just admitted he has no idea how difficult B is.
Clearly you do not either, as you claim it is less difficult than C.

If you guys had more PAPA experience under your belt, you would be more informed about what constitutes the different divisions. It is not a dig at either of you, it is merely a fact.

Hey, stop spelling random words with extra "u"s in them, and give me back my initials!

Hey, we have different syntax up here in the great white north

Your initials? I was born with them buddy !
Where's the A in Bowen?!?!

I would challenge you to a pin death match, with the winner keeping the AJK.....
But I'm smarter than that ! (i think)

I disagree with you assuming you know what I do or don't know. If you read what I wrote...

"Yes, with all the entrants, and then a top level of great players.... I will call it. C was harder to put up a good ranking ticket than B... for me."

There is no argument. You cannot argue how I feel. So stop.

Also, you are really laying on the "If you had more experience" arrogance in this thread. The format was altered this year from last, so you and I have the exact same amount of experience with the current system. Also, I played in both Divisions this year, did you? Did you watch the play of everyone and take notes so you could talk about it later on your podcast? Also, I have played in similar tournament settings all over the world in poker, and beach volleyball. Also, I can read the history of this argument and see the changes that have happened. Just because you went to Pittsburgh a few times doesn't somehow make you more astute on a topic.

Also, you clearly want it all the way it has always been. PAPA has been very open to asking for opinions on what would make the tournament better. Do these changes not suit you? Is this about you? If you like it the way it is, and always was, that's great. Some don't. To say that if I had only had more experience I might somehow see it your way is very close minded in my opinion. Often I have found bringing people with a fresh perspective from outside of a business/idea/whatever with less bias based on "the way it used to be/the way it always has been/whatever" leads to fresh ideas and a better environment for growth. Sorry I don't agree with you, it's okay, we will be fine. Just my opinions.

I believe I said this earlier and I'll say it again. My husband never qualified B. He was there for at least three years. He finally said the heck with it and moved up to A. He qualified the second year he was there. So moving up isn't always a taboo thing to do.

The problem with C is the sheer number of competitors. You may not be qualifying because there are 150 - 200 competitors in C. And I believe C2C said on his podcast, most of them don't void their entries, so you're competing against ridiculous scores. You might find you have a better chance in B. Less competitors. And the games aren't set up majorly different. I maintain, had I thrown in a second entry, I probably would have finished higher than last. And I'm ranked 1193 at IFPA. I'm not required to play in B by PAPA rules. But I play in a league. I also play in many tournaments and I feel I don't belong in C, despite my ranking, because I am experienced.

And why not challenge yourself. Play B next year. The worst that can happen is that you don't qualify. Which you don't seem to be doing in C either.

I believe she won at Pinburgh, I don't think she won PAPA, but I could be wrong. And I didn't say they didn't qualify. I forget what the statistics are. Someone actually did them as research for a justification for a women's division.

Love this concept of PAPA qualifying stories. I'd love to see one of these from someone like Bowen who has been playing at PAPA since the early days.

My experience has been somewhat similar to Sleethering, and we in fact usually make the trip out together, but I'll lay mine out anyways:

PAPA 15 - WPPR 4203 - Same as Sleethering. Had just joined my first league. I think I played two entries and learned two things: 1. Fish Tales is hard. 2. I had a LOT of work to do if I wanted to compete at PAPA. I had very little game knowledge, and was lacking many skills (live-catching, drop-catching, loop-passing, tap-passing, meaningful nudging). On top of that, even if I had any of those skills under my belt, my jitters were so bad I probably would have bailed on them anyway, and flailed my way to failure. Had a blast playing casual games until my brain shut down.

Pinburgh 2013 - WPPR 1563 - Had lots of fun, and learned how much I didn't know about playing Classics-era games. Had some skills, but had a hard time focusing. I hate waiting to play, as it's hard to stay in your head and get a rhythm going. Finished 238th, no finals for me. Left with the desire to practice more on old games and come back strong next year.

PAPA 16 - WPPR 750 - At this point I've got a few seasons of league and some local tournaments under my belt. I've got some flipper skills and I know how to play some of the games. Sleethering gave me a good tutorial on Scared Stiff in the practice bank, which I played for about 45 minutes before heading straight to the SS in the C bank. "Crushed" it with a 14m, as I recall, which isn't really impressive at all but was one of the higher ranking scores. That ticket was good enough to make me a low qualifier in C finals. Choked hard in the first round on games I had very little experience on: Centaur, Avengers, Avatar. I was not relaxed at all and wasn't playing my game, but I got money for playing pin! Sweet!! ninjadoug yelled at me for standing on a chair for a better view even though KOI is allowed during classics finals

Pinburgh 2014 - WPPR 350 - Feeling much more comfortable executing aforementioned skills, and much better at analyzing how to play games I've never seen before on-the-spot. Played poorly the first day, but picked it up a little friday and saturday enough to make the C finals. Chugged about 6 Mountain Dews during finals and played decently but got knocked out of a tie-breaker for the finals by a HYPED Jake Petersen.

PAPA 17 - WPPR 318 - Restricted to "B" now, but not really expecting to be able to perform at that level. The only reason my WPPR is even that high is that we now have a TON of league and tournament opportunities Cleveland, relative to just a couple years earlier. Luckily at least two of the games in B bank were in C last year (SS and RBION), and I felt comfortable with my ability to successfully execute a "B" level high score strategy on ACDC. Stuck to those games, blew it every time on Centaur, and ended a decent ticket with a thankfully great game on Target Pool. I'd love to attribute that Target Pool score to mostly skill, but even a great player could get hosed on that game quite easily. Either way that resulted in a ticket that kept me in the top 8 all the way from thursday night until the end of qualifying. Got the bye for first round, played well in quarter-finals, blew it in semi-finals even though i had pick, and ended up 8th. Would have loved to make it to finals but felt just fine about my performance in general. Played bad in Classics but tap-passed my way to the high-score on Paragon which was a great feeling. Several highly ranked players complimented me on that game, which was a pleasant surprise to a no-name guy such as myself.

PAPA 18 - WPPR ? - I will almost assuredly compete in B again. I was psyched to qualify in B for PAPA 17, but aside from some decent execution I probably got a little lucky. I am getting more consistent though. If for some reason I am restricted to A I will gladly take that honor and do my best on some entries. If anything that restriction would probably inspire me to step up my game.

None of this is really meant as an argument in any direction, just thought some might take interest. I agree that moving A restrictions to top 150 or 200 would be appropriate, as well as moving B restrictions to 600-700.

As a person that runs a league and quite a few tournaments every year now, I spend a lot of time thinking about how to get people into competitive (and casual) pinball and have come to an understanding that some people just aren't going to like it that much regardless of how easy you make it for them. I think it is more effective to focus on finding those guys n' gals that really get into it if you just give them a taste, and show them that even if they don't have a good chance of winning, it's still FUN to hang out and play pinball in public. In a way that's what I took from my first visit to PAPA. I didn't feel ready to compete on any of those levels, but luckily there are hundreds of games to enjoy as a casual player.

Every trip to PAPA is a great experience, and I learn something new every time. Many thanks to those that work so hard to make it so good!

From what I can see, you did not put up a good ranking ticket in B, so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion?

If you read the comments from the other PAPA vets who have chimed in with their PAPA experiences (slithering ,LOTR_Breath and vanapult) you will see it has nothing to do with arrogance. Only experience.

You should have seen my C ticket. You just keep missing that this isn't about me... or the PAPA vets.

Papa 16 I strolled in like the Roy Munson in the beginning of Kingpin. First game walked up the Whirlwind in B and blew around 20 milllionish score and collected $100 prize. Looked around at the other games, most I find on the "easy" side, and licked my chops; thanks for the money suckers.

All. Down. Hill. From. There.

Then talked to some high rankers that told me I was dumb and should have started in C my firs time.
Live & Learn.

Know what will hurt competitive pinball? People being forced into playing higher priced divisions they can't be competitive in.

No one wants to put entry after entry in chasing a hopeless fight. That's less money in the prize pool and less play from the players.

The old model of 'you did well, now it's time to move up' works fine IMO.

I've never qualified in PAPA format. People may say I should be an 'A' player based on how I've played against other people in other formats... but I've never been successful in the PAPA format. What does putting me in 'A' do for anyone?

I skipped PAPA this past year.. and if it weren't for ReplayFX I'd probably skip next year too. Pinburg has been enough for me to scratch my Carnegie itch and I enjoy the format more.

No, it's about newcomers who think they have all the answers with strong convictions based on what?
Arbitrary values of who should play where, disregarding the 17 year history of the event.

I'm sorry Nate, but your observations are not any more important than mine or anyone else's for that matter.
Hell, if we all went with your "notes", everyone who listens to your podcast would believe that Future Spa is an EM.
Experience, not arrogance.

Ah, how cute you made it personal. (Misses running joke of all games pre 1980 being EM.)

Please, if you can't have a conversation... then buy a T-shirt! http://www.coast2coastpinball.com/shirts.html

Adam, how do you feel about players ranked higher than you playing in the C Division? Real question.

Vanapult,
Did you feel that the level of competition in B was significantly tougher than C? I figure you could accurately judge since you qualified in both Divisions the past 2 years. I know you finished better in B, but I'm sure your skill level also improved over the past year.

My only PAPA experience was PAPA 16 last year where I just missed qualifying in C. I'm kicking myself for not putting in a B ticket just to see how I'd fare, but I thought maybe my C ticket would be enough to hang on. Since that time my WPPR ranking has climbed from 1200+ to 411 meaning that the next time I play PAPA I will almost certainly be playing in "B". I'm just curious as to what I'll be in for.

As I have said in this thread, if a player has failed to qualify or finish top 4 in B or C, they should not be forced up based on "tournament experience." That does nothing for anyone, other than make said player not want to compete again.
PAPA already has restrictions based on WPPR (which are not the be-all end-all of pinball skill rankings btw) and previous top 4 finishes.
Deciding divisions based on tournament experience makes no sense.
And adding even more stringent WPPR thresholds will only be to the detriment of the tournament.
Flynnibus said it very well:

Now how do I get on team C2C?
Will you sponsor me?
Let's grab a beer at the next event!

You are already on the team.