See papa.org. Under "PAPA's Goal"

Escher did just that, took all 3 days.

But he's the best player in that age bracket. He's practiced and learned all the rules and he deserves to say he's the best youth player in the world, if he wasn't allowed to participate in that division then some other kid would get to say that, and it wouldn't be true. Maybe they could give out a "most improved" plaque or give out a T-shirt for the high score on each machine or something, at least they don't give out some stupid participation ribbon like most kids sports do. If you want it, you practice and you earn it.

If you don't want a D division (and I can agree with not spreading the competition levels too much), then I agree with some here that C Division should be more restricted, say, to players outside the top 600 in WPPR points. Many seriously good and experienced players go for C division for a better chance to win, although they are seriously B-level players. Given that WPPR points reflect both level of tournament activity and success, if you are in the top 600 than you have played at least several tournaments/leagues and are also pretty darned good. I think the 400-point restriction is too low for weeding out the B-level sandbaggers playing in C. Another level (800?) can also be used--I'm sure a data analysis of WPPR rank vs. division played can help fine-tune a good cutoff level.

Also, don't forget that many players jump to A Division on Saturday if they feel they won't qualify in B or C, just to get some WPPR points. These players won't show up as competing in the lower divisions and skew the final results.

So it begs.. is it a competition or a event?

You won't find Novice divisions at a World Series game... because it's a championship game, not a 'Baseball Expo 2014'

Anytime you setup multiple tiers to deal with skill levels.. you are going to have issues with who plays where. You need to clearly define what you are trying to achieve... levels of skill or approach-ability?

If you want a 'a noob can walk in and enjoy competitive pinball for the first time' and want to preserve that... you need to take away any money payouts or limit it explicitly to first time players. Payout top 8 modestly and limit to non-A division first time players. Heck, maybe only payout top 4... maybe just give a plaque. Make the entries free and limit how many times people can enter. Run it Saturday and Sunday only. This way if someone wants to get their first taste of competitive pinball.. they can.. without incentive for people to linger there. Anyone who would be decent enough to qualify in a division would play in the division playoffs and skip the noob playoffs.

Show up.. and play C and the noob tournament even... if you tank out in C maybe the noob tournament gives you that positive reenforcement you need to come back next year and aim to do better.

If you want to say "hey, come give competitive pinball a try!!" - you want something like a noob tournament.

For many people... C is not the noob division, but simply 'the 3rd tier of competitive play'

The problem is people want C to be both things... and it's too difficult to be both.

What purpose does a noob division have under the title of 'world championship'? Any noob divisions should be about promoting pinball as an aside to one of the biggest events of the year - not part of a 'championship'

Exactly. (I used the wrong example!) So why have 3 Junior tournaments then? I guess that is my real question. If it's a world title, then there should be just one Junior tourney (as in previous years). If the object is to spread the achievements, then where's the fun in having one dominant junior player win all 3 days?

There doesn't need to be a D division. If you are new and want to wet your whistle when it comes to competitive pinball, there is a little tournament called Pinburgh.

I use to be on the bandwagon for a D division and I am sure some will think it's my "A division attitude", but since it's the WORLD PINBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS, I am not sure PAPA needs to spend more energy trying to get "one more new person" to attend PAPA WC when they do plenty to try to attract new players via Pinburgh, PAPA Circuit, ReplayFx, all of the videos, etc, etc.

Because it was an event to determine the world champion? People need to think is it an event like expo? or it is a tournament?

Chris makes great points about the 'quality of the environment' for all divisions. It's like your high school team getting to play in the area's MLB stadium.

Enter.. the PAPA Circuit.

Take your pick... Bowling? Darts? etc.. when you get to the highest level competitive event in the sport_... do they have a division for walk-ons?

PAPA already does more than anyone had done previously to promote competitive pinball to new people around the country. Why is it hard to consider the PAPA CHAMPIONSHIPS should be focursed on maybe championships? Simply put... 'everything has a time and place'

If I recall you were active in the SCS stuff... would you lobby that your local SCS final event needs to add more divisions so people can walk-up and get a taste of competitive pinball?

I honestly think that Replay, PAPA, etc wants to grow pinball. hence the circuit, hence PAPAtv, hence the changes to PAPA this year. If you don't grow it and bring new players in, then 10 years from now, there will be no PAPA.

I think a novice division isn't a bad thing. because you want to bring those new players in and give them the experience of competing in a major tournament. And feel like they have a chance to succeed. Otherwise, they'll play one year, go "this isn't worth it, I have NO chance" and they won't ever go back.

That's my same argument for a women's division. Not that I don't think I can't compete with the men. But look at the last 10 years of PAPA. How many women have actually qualified in A, B and C? Not too many. I see lots of ladies coming in with their significant other, but they don't want to compete against all the guys. They get bored of wandering around the facility or end up going to tour Pittsburgh or hang out in a hotel. Heck, that's why I scorekeep. If you give them a division, they might feel more comfortable competing against each other, initially. If there were a womens division, you would be drawing new people into the sport, who down the road, may feel more comfortable entering C or B, once they get that tournament experience under their belt and feel more comfortable with their skills. I think that's the logic for the juniors division. To bring in the younger generation. If you don't appeal to them, again, PAPA, pinball, etc, will die in 10 years.

fixed that for ya !

PAPA is extremely welcoming and gives C players a near identical experience to A players.
Your comments are way off base. I think only a small percentage of non-qualifying C players will argue that the experience was anything but "positive yet challenging ... both fun and fair."

Bottom line: stop complaining and PLAY BETTER

And once again, thank you for doing so. Much appreciated!

I appreciate what you are saying.

However I suspect some of the questioning might have been because you won the State Championship for your state and are currently the number one ranked player in your state.

To a person not in the competitive pinball trenches, that pinball resume' doesn't "sound" like a B Division player, even if it is allowed by PAPA rules.

We need to clone Virginia so she can just scorekeep in all divisions

In the WPPR v5.0 world, it will be counterproductive to intentionally run an event without your top ~16 local players. You'd just be hurting how it grades out and there will be fewer points available to those who participate. Besides that, is it even acceptable to cut off the state rank of those who can join?

So... like I said... kind of like the PAPA Circuit? Where PAPA has been helping promote competitive pinball and upping the experience at tournaments around the country?

The point is there is a point of diminishing returns when instead of expanding all you are doing is diluting. If the PAPA championship strives to be the premier competitive event... you should be focusing on competition. PAPA has made great strides in the last few years with improving the spectator experience and the promotion of the event. It should remain the championships - not 'The biggest draw for playing pinball'.

IFPA helps promote competitive pinball around the world... yet the IFPA championships is just that.. the championship, not Pinball Expo.

I'm not against other events and tiers like you describe - I just don't think they have a place in a tournament striving to title the world's best pinball players.

Which seems to be the way ReplayFX is going... a larger event to get the Gen Pop draw... where a specific championship will be held.

Sounds like you are referring to me personally.
I am neither a top player nor have an ego.
Rather, my comments are based on my experiences in competitive pinball and at the PAPA facility.
I have played in Pinburgh twice and failed to qualify B twice at PAPA.

One thing I have learned is that a trip to Carnegie means you are in for the most difficult pinball tournaments available to the public - and that is part of the charm.
Regardless of your division, competition is fierce.

Adding a D division would further strain resources (volunteers / scorekeepers / etc) and is simply not necessary. Once again, this is the WORLD PINBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS. It should be, and is, tough as nails to qualify and even tougher to advance.

The Replay Foundation (PAPA) does an amazing job of growing the base; via tutorials, pinburgh, and now replay FX. The PAPA event is the premier pinball tournament that remains open to the public and it should stay that way. Watering it down further with a D division won't do much of anything, other than please the small number of sour grapes who failed to qualify C.

Speaking of introspection and trolling .... aren't you the goofball who called a 10-year old a Sandbagger at PAPA 17? Obviously you haven't changed much since then, and are still on the same page.

As you improve at competitive pinball, you won't even consider this discussion anymore.
Hence my original advice - PLAY BETTER !!

Hilton - Everything you say here is 100% correct . . . until we put in some artificial WPPR boost for the State Championship tournaments themselves

There were some amazing games played in juniors. In the finals with Timmy and Jason and Escher, my son, Gregory, put up 52 million on his first ball on PotC (which is more than almost all the scores C division put up on that game all week), only to still get beat by Escher! And that's not a complaint - playing against these guys forced all of these kids to raise their game, Escher included. Despite not winning it, my son garnered great experience and made some good friends. No shame in losing to the best!

Oh, and Timmy's come back the night before to force a playoff was totally clutch - as we refreshed the action constantly watching from the iPad from the hotel room...

image.jpg

Quadruple.png

Wrong.
Making finals or final 4 in ANY division is a huge accomplishment - kind of a big deal to everyone involved.

As for your "constructive criticism", all I hear from you and Nate Shivers is a sense of entitlement.
It's the case of - "I own pinballs, have played in tournaments, therefore I deserve to qualify and/or place at PAPA".

The reason I keep harping on the PINBALL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS is because the concept of a difficult, high-level tournament continues to elude you.

I competed for the first time at PAPA 17. At the end of Day 1, I finished 16th, but had to go home on Friday. I went just to feel it out and to see if I actually could compete in Division C. I know where my skills rank in my house, but wanted a real world test. From home, I watched my rank slip down into the 40s by midnight on Saturday, and it told me with all the people beneath me and only one day of qualifying, I can definitely compete for real given the three full days to qualify. I'll definitely be back, if not next year, then the year after that.

My point is, I didn't come away wishing there was a Division D at any point. I figured if I couldn't compete, I'd just have to practice more. How many divisions do you want? After three, I think it gets a bit ridiculous.

I think people are making way too big a deal out of adding a "D" division for beginner level players. I know from my personal experience that pinball tournaments can seem rather daunting to beginners starting out. I was in the hobby a good 6 years before I ever entered a tournament. I'd go to Pinball Expo or MGC and see banks of games and lines of tournament players but didn't really understand how everything worked nor really care to find out. It also didn't help that most of these tournaments were multi-day, and I would usually just attend the events for a single day so I wouldn't be able to compete if I qualified anyway. It wasn't until the Waunabowl tournament a couple years back(a single day tourney close to where I live) that I decided to give competitive pinball a chance. And once I did and actually qualified that I became hooked. If I was just starting out I don't think simply playing a qualifying ticket in "C" would be enough to get me hooked. I'd want something where I'd actually have a shot at qualifying and being able to participate in the "fun" part of tournament play. I know Pinburgh currently does this but PAPA doesn't really have anything geared towards this type of "beginner" player.

You wouldn't even need to call it "D" division. Call it "Beginners" or "Noobs" or whatever you want to call it. Put in a top 1500 IFPA restriction and you could even have daily playoffs like Juniors does so that casual players don't have to invest an entire weekend to figure out what competitive pinball is all about. It would really just be a division tailored towards getting new players interested in competing. Perfect for the tag-along wife that just wants something fun to do while you play in the higher divisions, or a kid or new pinball player that is just starting out. There doesn't need to be cash payouts involved, just small plaques or certificates to make it fun.

I ran that JR finals sunday

That POTC in C was totally different. I'm not knocking the JRs at all. No one could hardly make the Tortuga ramp from a craddle... it was very frustrating. I don't know if it was a weak flipper or what but it was killing everyone. I finally moved to B and had better games.

All 4 of those JR competitors really impressed me! They all were killing that ramp shot on Dr Who over and over. I thought I was watching A players on that screen, Escher was dialed in on it for sure

Well, the other finalists got to compete with the best junior in the word. That's pretty exciting.

The playoffs and finals are only 3 games long. Anyone can have a bad game or two.

If I upvote this post, will we be friends again? (He called me out 5 minutes after I down-voted his comment about stop complaining and play better".

I think a lot of people feel very passionate about pinball, and as such, like to discuss ways to make it better, and hopefully bring more people into it. No need to be so combative.

I don't understand how "Play Better" has anything to do with it. Whysnow isn't petitioning for a "D" division so that he can sandbag and participate in it. He will likely compete in either C or B depending on where his IFPA ranking is at that time. He is simply looking for a way to draw new players into competitive pinball.

My guess is that they had three juniors tourneys because many people bring their kid for a day or two, not four days. I thought having three junior tourneys was great and it kept them invested in the tourney everyday. And, it gave my son a new shot at Escher everyday. I would not change anything, except to mix up the games each day.

Awesome picture! I love seeing more young people involved in competitive pinball!

PAPA doesn't need a D division they need a B+ division!! Who's with me?!?!

Sure, allow me to up vote; I'm friends with anyone who loves pinball!.
From my perspective, it appears as if the "bringing new people in" argument is a thinly veiled mask for "I want a division where I can play against less skilled opponents so that I have a chance of winning."

I disagree. Based on his comments after PAPA 17, and now PAPA 18, I believe Whysnow would definitely choose to compete in D division given the option - or C should more exclusions be placed on who can enter as per his requests.

I really fail to see how adding a D division would draw in new players to the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Again, it would further dilute and strain resources with no real net gain other than allowing for weaker competition in both C and D division. Everyone gets a ribbon!

Yeah, I think I have to disagree with this statement. If people didn't care, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I know many people over the years refused to move up to the next division because they have never "won the money in B or C" and felt that they didn't have to or "weren't ready for the next level" (case in point, the guy who commented here that has qualified three times in B in the last four years). The championships are just as big of a deal to the other divisions. The year my husband finished second in C, he walked around saying "I was the first place US winner in C." (he lost to a guy from Canada and yes, he was joking) but that second place meant a lot to him. He has all his PAPA hardware displayed because he's proud of it.

We need to clone Virginia so she can just scorekeep in all divisions

And you don't want more than one of me running around PAPA. LOL. Kudos to all the people willing to help out at PAPA. Even those 2 hour shifts can be tough! You guys put us through our paces!

Just some stats I noticed after approving the results. These are number of new IFPA profiles I needed to create for each division. Everyone else had previously competed in at least one IFPA endorsed event sometime in the past:

A division - 1 first timer
B division - 2 first timers
C division - 15 first timers

Funny enough the best place to find 'new' players that were introduced to competitive pinball came from the Juniors division.

Out of the 24 players that competed, 10 of them were first timers. IMO having each day be separate made it far more accessible for the kids to give it a try, knowing they were only going to be there for 1 day anyway.

OK, this makes sense. I didn't consider that reasoning. I tend to think that many of the juniors come with their pinball-playing parent(s) and stay for the whole weekend.

BTW, just to reiterate, PAPA is a friggin' blast! I failed to qualify for anything (out of 5 tournaments/divisions attempted, with lots of entries) and still had an awesome time. Nothing like 3-4 days of pinball bliss. Kudos again to everyone who makes it happen (and I know there are a *lot* of people!).

Thanks for the statistics Josh. I would be curious to see how many people entered the PAPA facility and didn't enter any of the tournaments.-only played the games on the floor. I know if I were to bring my wife this would be the case for sure. If there was a Beginner's division with daily playoffs, maybe some of these folks would decide to give competitive pinball a try?

I think this stems from many players (myself included) who played in C (note I moved to B after day 1...) felt that the difference of the players at the top of C to the bottom of C was really huge.... Like, a MUCH bigger difference than the jump from average C player to average B player. So, with that, and the fact there were nearly double the entrants in C... Some of us felt like many of those C players should probably be in B, but the rules allow them to be in B... SO, we are here discussing a way to shift the requirements to balance out the skill level in the divisions.

I played both. The C division seemed just as difficult.

Please STOP insinuating that you believe people are having this discussion because they are sore losers and upset they didn't qualify for the finals... I can confirm this is NOT why I am in this thread. I am here looking at this from a top down stand point, as my end goal is NOT to make the finals and possibly win a small cash prize and stroke my ego... It's just not. The point is....

PAPA has likely the greatest collection of pinball under one roof anywhere in the world. It is an amazing thing to experience. They are open TWICE a year. The PAPA World Pinball Championships format leaves quite a bit of room (both time and space) to enjoy the facility. The Main Event(A Division) is really something to see in and of itself. These are the best players walking the planet, and ANYONE can challenge them. (Much like the World Series of Poker, which I have also played in).

AND... there are other tournaments.... That limit the field, to give players with less skill/less experience a chance to enjoy a world class run tournament. SO... if there are two "lesser" divisions, it is a good idea to try your best to even out the competition, so that the experience is positive for as many involved as possible (I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WINNING OR QUALIFYING).

When there are twice as many people in the C Division, it raises attention. Why? Is it just the price is lower? Are there more players who fit that C Division? Are people afraid of looking stupid in the B Division... Likely a bit of all of the above.

SO... we then go back and look the PAPA guidelines for the Divisions and see that C Division is described:
"Division C at the PAPA World Championships is designed for players who are still new to competitive pinball. Players with below average league or tournament experience, or anyone who does not fit within the official descriptions of Division A or Division B caliber players, should compete here."

Then we see there are players (many of the qualifiers) who don't really fall into the "below average league or tournament experience" classification. This makes some people think, well, that is kinda lame... These guys have WAY more experience than much of the field that they are competing against, maybe they should be in B.

I had an email the other day from someone who wrote and told me they have played in C for three years in a row, and never qualified and will not move to B until they do.

(Here I go spoiling my next episode). I told him, he should move to B next year in my opinion. The way C is set up in my understanding, is for players of ALL SKILL Levels who just don't have the competitive experience. These could be the most talented players we have ever seen, but they haven't played in many tournaments...

Here is where you and I agree MovingPictures.... I told him to PLAY BETTER... in B. He has the experience, he knows what the game play in these tournaments will be, he understands the situation, and that gives him a giant advantage on newcomers.... He should move to B, and get better.

If C could be fixed to only allow players based on skill or a handicap (like golf), then cool... However, I don't think that is possible, so we use points earned and past experience. I think if we use experience, than players who have been there, done it, etc... Should get out of the over crowded beginners Division and work on competing in B.

All just my commentary. The more people who feel it is an even playing field (if that is the goal), then the more people that will return home and join a league. The more people that will come back the next year, and the next.

Then you should be lobbying for a side-tournament with restricted entries... not add yet another division of play.

The 'break them into tournament play...' offering doesn't need to be part of the PAPA Champs Divisions. It can be a side-tournament just like the Minis and others have been.

And hate to break it to you... working out how to split the divisions has been an evolving topic every year.. well before you brought it up last year.. *rolleyes*

I don't know about adding a D Division myself... Seems like a shift in C division qualifications would solve much of the problem.... BUT....

If PAPA wanted to add D Division ... For players who have less than ~5 IFPA scores, or are true newcomers, you can't enter if you have played in a previous PAPA.

Choose 3 games... Everyone plays all three games on each ticket. $10 entrances... Cap the # of tickets anyone can buy.... Top 4 players have a "final" on Saturday night... Quick and easy welcome to tournament pinball.

That's just a tad silly, don't ya think?
Someone unable to qualify in C for 3 years should move up to a more skilled division?
Just because they have experience in failing?

I think to end the discussion once and for call, PAPA should remove or change the description of what C division is. Remove the "below average league or tournament experience" classification in favour of a blanket:

C Division:
Anyone who does not fit within the official descriptions of Division A or Division B caliber players, should compete here.

Problem solved.

Give me a break dude.
What are you, the saviour of competitive pinball after your 12 months of experience?
Maybe you should stick to calling children names....

I don't think it is "silly" at all... Like you point out.. Based on the PAPA description of the C Division, he shouldn't be there. You seem to think your idea of what C should be is correct... I am just going off of what is stated by the organization running the event. You might be right... (If you are... then I CAN STAY IN C!!!! )

BUT AGAIN.... In C, my best ticket had me at 81st (would have been like 100 by end of Saturday) when I left for B... My best ticket in B put me in 76th place...

So what if B Division is easier than C Division??!?!?! (MINDS MELTING, WORLDS SPINNING, KEANU REEVES POORLY DELIVERS LINES).

If that's the case then I'm petitioning against my best interests. I'm not eligible for C due to my ranking and would actually prefer that "B" be made more challenging and "C" be made less challenging. As it stands right now there isn't a huge difference between the two. Sure B has higher ranked players on the average but C has double the number of competitors which evens things out a bit.