(Topic ID: 22391)

Papa 14 Finals T2: Awarding super after glitch. thoughts.


By sixsixtie

7 years ago



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  • 34 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by jay
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 7 years ago

http://papa.org/blog/2012/08/papa-14-finals/

Josh hits the super but isn't awarded it. They stop the game and end up giving him the points.

Anyone else disturbed by this? I mean what's next, you get awarded locks even when they brick?

Pinball is a mechanical game and that's what I say whenever my friends bitch that some shot bricked. Shit happens. I think it sets a dangerous precedent.

Anyone else?

#2 7 years ago

Well, to his benefit, it was on camera and everyone saw it. If it were me qualifying in B or C rank, it wouldn't fly because those officials aren't over your shoulder, but this was the finals, so it's a different case.

#3 7 years ago

Is it really all that different? Shouldn't it really be the same across the board?

#4 7 years ago

During the PAPA 15 finals, Josh Henderson had a ball that went right through the left out-lane on High Speed, even though the kicker was lit. I believe Josh was one of the people involved that lobbied for him to get a corrective action. They ended up giving him another ball to add to his score, but he couldn't catch Elwin and remained in second place on the machine.

#5 7 years ago

I should have specified that it was Josh Sharpe who appeared to be lobbying.

#6 7 years ago

Ok. So what about when a ball goes directly over the flippers? That's not supposed to happen but it does. Where do we stop?

#7 7 years ago

We stop where the IFPA says it's time to stop on it. Now if you really want to talk about a slippery slope...

Roger Sharpe
Director – IFPA Founder

Roger Sharpe's contributions and impact on the coin-operated amusement game industry have been evident for over 30 years. From his acclaimed book on pinball machines, testifying in New York City to help legalize the games and for 15 years, the Director of Marketing and Licensing for Williams Bally/Midway. He has also spent time designing games, and contributing to many of the coin-op industry trade magazines.

Josh Sharpe
President

Josh Sharpe's contributions to competitive pinball started with the creation of the Illini Pinball Association in 1998 on the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign campus. From there Josh created the PinBrawl World Team Pinball Championships, held at Pinball Expo in Chicago for several years and now held at the Michigan Pinball Expo. In the Spring of 2006, with the help of many players and enthusiasts, Josh created the World Pinball Player Rankings and resurrected the defunct International Flipper Pinball Association.

Zach Sharpe
Vice President

Zach Sharpe took over the Illini Pinball Association in 2002, and has overseen its continuance even after he has left the campus. Since 1999, Zach has been the lead contributing writer for Play Meter Magazine's column, Critic's Corner Too! He has been an integral part in the continuing promotion of competitive pinball to the player community.

I'm not saying they're playing the odds and bending the rules to suit them, they are legitimately amazing players. But this is facts of the IFPA.

Post edited by Blakesell : IFPA IS NOT PAPA

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from sixsixtie:

Ok. So what about when a ball goes directly over the flippers? That's not supposed to happen but it does. Where do we stop?

An odd bounce is totally different from a game malfunction. You stop at obvious game malfunctions.

That being said, I had actually turned my head when his ball drained. I missed it, so, I can't say whether or not I agreed with their decision. Apparently the ball was moving really fast... possibly too fast for the machine to react. I think they may have had someone check the video.

#9 7 years ago

you are playing the same machine that the next guy is gonna play too. so if there is a reject or something doesnt work i think it is part of the game. that is my opinion anyway.
sometimes you get away with a heavy nudge and other times you get a tilt right away. that is the machine that is a mechanical object not being as accurate as a video game.. so for me it is part of the game.

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from poopdotcom:

An odd bounce is totally different from a game malfunction. You stop at obvious game malfunctions.

Ok, sometimes in MM when the gate is down and you hit the shot it will award a lock instead of whatever the castle destruction is worth.

What if you have the king of payne beat and you nail the shot and it awards a lock and you then drain?

Do we rewind the game and award the points the castle should have awarded?

Does it matter if it's in the finals? It shouldn't. What if that was your last game and you could have qualified but you didn't end up qualifying. It should be the exact same throughout the whole tournament.

There's tons of things like this in pinball. You can just go arbitrarily awarding points depending on situation.

At least that's how I see it.

#11 7 years ago

Pinball people sure complain a lot. If they try to make it fair people complain. If they just let it go people complain.

#12 7 years ago

Henderson's "lobbying" had nothing to do with anything. PAPA Rules, available to everyone before the tournament started, Section 7 Part 3. Read the examples portion.

3. Major Malfunctions

A major malfunction is a gameplay problem with a machine that results in the premature loss of ball in play in a fashion that is not a normal feature of the machine's gameplay. These may be unusual one-time events, or they may indicate a recurring problem that will need to be addressed by technicians.

Examples of major malfunctions include:

The bonus count begins while the ball is still in play. This can happen if, for example, the machine loses track of how many balls are in the drain trough.
A lit kickback fails to return the ball to play, ending the player's turn. This does not apply to other ball saving devices such as timed ball savers, ball traps, gates, or "virtual" kickbacks.
A flipper ceases to function.

Quoted from poopdotcom:

During the PAPA 15 finals, Josh Henderson had a ball that went right through the left out-lane on High Speed, even though the kicker was lit. I believe Josh was one of the people involved that lobbied for him to get a corrective action. They ended up giving him another ball to add to his score, but he couldn't catch Elwin and remained in second place on the machine.

#13 7 years ago

So MHS, what would happen in the MM example? And how is it different than the original T2 example?

#14 7 years ago

I was surprised about the call, too (and actually thought from the replay it might not have hit exactly where it needed to) but bottom line is that it's always going to be a judgment call as to what can be corrected and what can't. What if it was a game where the award was a shot doubler, a scoring condition that isn't easily replicated? I suspect that part of the reason this was awarded is because the correction was comparatively simple.

Bear in mind that one could go too far the other way, too. If "what happens happens" is the default standard, then a B/W game that reset in the middle (to pick an absurd example) would just end where it ended and a TOM trunk eddy board that worked for one player and completely failed for the next would be part of the game.

I think the difficulty in determining where to draw the line is an interesting topic and worthy of discussion. How do folks think the balance is best struck?

#15 7 years ago

Interesting thread.
In small tournaments there isn't instant replay, I'm accustomed to that...

#16 7 years ago

You can pawn it off as complaining or you can look at it legitimately. Ultimately, in that situation it was a judgment call from the official. In any sport you can say the official was wrong, and maybe they were in some situations. The call still stands and the game goes on.

Argumentatively, I could have said the same thing, say I was getting the bounty prize on IM and I said Do or Die was to happen in my game so I should get the $100. I'm certain the official would have told me, well if you got that far, just do it again, after they confirmed the switch was working on the machine.

I'm a beer judge as well, and I've judged beer with the writer of the BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program) guidelines. People are intimidated by Gordon Strong's (president of the BJCP) amazing palate, and sometimes are intimidated by his power, political or legit tasting wise. Regardless, the man can be swayed in his tasting opinion by using the guidelines he wrote and knowing the rules of the style of beer being judged. I suspect pinball judging would be a similar situation.

In the case of a machine malfunction in the rules which I didn't find right away to quote directly, but I know the gist, you are supposed to get the ball under control if possible and get the official immediately. Josh did just that. At that point it became the official's call. Was he swayed by Josh's clout and stunning good looks? Maybe, but not likely.

Post edited by Blakesell : oops, when I was writing this, MHS posted the actual rule verbiage. The comment is still valid.

#17 7 years ago

He didn't even need the points that were given to him to win anyways. I too when watching the video thought he may have missed but it's not my call it's the tourney directors call.

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from mhs:

Henderson's "lobbying" had nothing to do with anything. PAPA Rules, available to everyone before the tournament started, Section 7 Part 3. Read the examples portion.
3. Major Malfunctions
A major malfunction is a gameplay problem with a machine that results in the premature loss of ball in play in a fashion that is not a normal feature of the machine's gameplay. These may be unusual one-time events, or they may indicate a recurring problem that will need to be addressed by technicians.
Examples of major malfunctions include:
The bonus count begins while the ball is still in play. This can happen if, for example, the machine loses track of how many balls are in the drain trough.
A lit kickback fails to return the ball to play, ending the player's turn. This does not apply to other ball saving devices such as timed ball savers, ball traps, gates, or "virtual" kickbacks.
A flipper ceases to function.

I clarified that it was Josh Sharpe who appeared to be lobbying. I was saying it in his defense to show that he would apply the same rules for other players.

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from sixsixtie:

http://papa.org/blog/2012/08/papa-14-finals/
Josh hits the super but isn't awarded it. They stop the game and end up giving him the points.
Anyone else disturbed by this? I mean what's next, you get awarded locks even when they brick?
Pinball is a mechanical game and that's what I say whenever my friends bitch that some shot bricked. Shit happens. I think it sets a dangerous precedent.
Anyone else?

While I cannot speak for Kevin or know what he was thinking at the time, I can guess, since I was there.

First, "giving locks when they brick" is not a proper analogy, since this is a software *BUG* and not a result of physical reaction. This is more similar to hitting the MM lock shot and having it not register and the VUK just returns the ball to play.

I do think awarding the points, under most situations, is the wrong decision -- but I can understand why Kevin called it this way when you consider the gravity of the situation. It's a confirmed bug that at least two programmers and many others confirmed does exist, not to mention, many of us have seen before -- even though it's really rare. Additionally, it was a single shot worth a huge amount of points and greatly shifts the balance of the match. It was seen by so many people and was on video as well. No to mention, it was for the WC

I know all of the competitors involved and I am 99% sure that Cayle, Andrei and Jim agreed with Kevin's resolution.

#20 7 years ago
Quoted from sixsixtie:

So MHS, what would happen in the MM example? And how is it different than the original T2 example?

You do understand that no one in competitive play had ever seen what happened to that T-2 before, correct? This wasn't a cut and dry situation where the saucer on AFM awarded a lock or similar. Those are easy mechanical issues (or known software issues) that have been dealt with hundreds of times by many tournament directors. This scenario is far more complicated because the game is seemingly trying to both award and not award the shot simultaneously.

In this case, the game played the correct sound call for him having successfully hit the Super jackpot AND played the correct DMD display for a successful hit, but it didn't award him the points. The game also then enters a state immediately following that sequence that just doesn't make much sense. In short, the software went nuts, and the TD who made the decision felt the shot was successfully made as evidenced by the soundcall and shown by the DMD, and him having personally watched it happen. Awarding the points was a discretion decision in what he felt was the best interest of the competitive nature of an imperfect game. You have a perfect right to disagree in this instance, but I highly doubt it will ever come up again based on how long it's taken for this particular T-2 bug to surface in the first place.

#21 7 years ago

Zaxxis. I just now read your post. I'm interested in hearing about other times this bug has surfaced, because your post is the first I've read (or heard) of others encountering it. I know of others in the game, but not this one specifically.

#22 7 years ago

Seemed like a good decision by the official here.

He made the shot and the machine gave the correct callout and DMD animation which means it recognized it but simply didn't give the points. Are you going to get that type of ruling in qualification? Probably not but in this case since it's the PAPA finals with more eyes (and cameras) on it you do.

#23 7 years ago
Quoted from Svengo:

He made the shot and the machine gave the correct callout and DMD animation which means it recognized it but simply didn't give the points.

The DMD said "1 Target Remaining" which is pretty strange. Unless you need two hits to get Super Jackpot, it looks like a bug, and I agree he deserved the points.

#24 7 years ago

Steve Bowden posted a detailed description of the bug on the PAPA Blog. I've copied it below. It's the best explanation I've seen so far.

---

I believe the key to the “glitch/feature” is at 5:24 when he locks a ball with 0 seconds left.
Starting at Multiball stage one, the game thinks there are three balls in play. (correct)
Two balls are locked. (so far, so good)

Here is where the conflict might have happened.

1. There are 0 seconds left, so it’s time for the game to release the balls for a retry. Stage one continues albeit VERY briefly. A ball was locked in the skull immediately (after the hypothetical release that didn’t happen), so lets go for the Single Jackpot. The other two balls are out of play.
VERSUS

2. Ball 3 is locked! Let’s go for the Triple Jackpot!

Where the cross-up happens is hard to know. Regardless, the game is playing the “Big Shot Jackpot tension music” so we are good there.

So, I guess there is a “fight” in the programming between:

1. The timer ran out and one ball was locked immediately after that. Give him the 7.5 million Single Jackpot, and let’s go back to single ball play.

VERSUS

2. Three balls were locked! Give him the 22.5 Million Triple Jackpot, and let’s go to stage 2 to go for some Super Jackpots!

3. ???

4. Result: Award the 22.5 Million but go back to single ball play. However, move forward to the stage 2 Multiball music.

Now, the game is in stage 2 for the Super Jackpot attempts. The game’s soundtrack agrees with this, since it is playing the stage 2 music. But, the game also now thinks he is back to single ball play where you need to re-lock the balls (because there were 0 seconds left on the timer from before).

Then, a ball is locked in the skull.
<>

1. Let’s go for the 2 targets to start the next multiball.

VERSUS

2. Let’s go for the Super Jackpot! (But, it’s still playing the multiball stage 2 music, and not the “Big Shot Super Jackpot tension music”)

The target for the Super Jackpot happened to be one of the two needed for the next round of 2 mutiball targets. RESULT: Give him one of the two targets.

I may be off-base since this is conjecture and theory. However, this is based on what I have seen when playing the game. I think I remember having some of the same strange behavior when I have locked a ball on T2 with 0 seconds left on the clock.

By the way, a little bonus glitch: At 20:37, after Josh does not relock the ball to go for a Single Jackpot, the game is still playing the music for Multiball stage 1 when Josh is in single ball play. Yes, I like pinball music THAT much. ^_^

#25 7 years ago

MHS, if you are indeed Mark from PAPA (and I think you are), I want to thank you (again) for all the vids you've done and I look forward to many more. They are a great resource to aspiring players.

#26 7 years ago

Same guy. Plenty more videos on the way. Keep flipping and take care.

#27 7 years ago

Thanks for your reply and your work MHS.

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from Blakesell:

We stop where the IFPA says it's time to stop on it. Now if you really want to talk about a slippery slope...
Roger Sharpe
Director – IFPA Founder
Roger Sharpe's contributions and impact on the coin-operated amusement game industry have been evident for over 30 years. From his acclaimed book on pinball machines, testifying in New York City to help legalize the games and for 15 years, the Director of Marketing and Licensing for Williams Bally/Midway. He has also spent time designing games, and contributing to many of the coin-op industry trade magazines.
Josh Sharpe
President
Josh Sharpe's contributions to competitive pinball started with the creation of the Illini Pinball Association in 1998 on the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign campus. From there Josh created the PinBrawl World Team Pinball Championships, held at Pinball Expo in Chicago for several years and now held at the Michigan Pinball Expo. In the Spring of 2006, with the help of many players and enthusiasts, Josh created the World Pinball Player Rankings and resurrected the defunct International Flipper Pinball Association.
Zach Sharpe
Vice President
Zach Sharpe took over the Illini Pinball Association in 2002, and has overseen its continuance even after he has left the campus. Since 1999, Zach has been the lead contributing writer for Play Meter Magazine's column, Critic's Corner Too! He has been an integral part in the continuing promotion of competitive pinball to the player community.
I'm not saying they're playing the odds and bending the rules to suit them, they are legitimately amazing players. But this is facts of the IFPA.

The IFPA has nothing to do with PAPA and vice versa.

#29 7 years ago

So then so I can understand more fully, they don't have the same fundamental pinball rules in the case of malfunctions? Is A class and Classics not sanctioned by the IFPA? According to the points they are.

It's really a different can of worms, I thought it was where sixsixtie was trying to go with the OP, and I was saying that wasn't the case, but it was something to note when rule leanings come into play.

If it were him or me playing that same game of T2 on B or C class, I wouldn't imply they have anything to do with each other.

In my mind it was a fair judgement call by PAPA in any case. These are phenomonal players outside of any affiliations with any other associations.

#30 7 years ago
Quoted from sixsixtie:

Ok, sometimes in MM when the gate is down and you hit the shot it will award a lock instead of whatever the castle destruction is worth.
What if you have the king of payne beat and you nail the shot and it awards a lock and you then drain?
Do we rewind the game and award the points the castle should have awarded?
Does it matter if it's in the finals? It shouldn't.

The rules can be consistent, but what changes is that during qualifiers you have a lot more players playing a lot more games. There's no way to scrutinize every single qualifier attempt on the level of what happens in a finals match, and you can't officiate what you didn't see.

Quoted from sixsixtie:

What if that was your last game and you could have qualified but you didn't end up qualifying. It should be the exact same throughout the whole tournament.

In the finals of most tournaments, there are only a few games going on at a time and multiple judges watching each game, versus qualifiers, where there are many, many games going on at once, but with roughly the same number of judges. Simple math explains why it can't be the exact same throughout the tournament as you suggest.

As for a make or break on the very last qual entry, while it's possible it's highly improbable.

Has it happened? Sure. But Keith Elwin didn't win 4 PAPAs because his opponents all got software glitches and got knocked out that way. The skill will rise despite the bumps in the road.

#31 7 years ago
Quoted from Blakesell:

So then so I can understand more fully, they don't have the same fundamental pinball rules in the case of malfunctions? Is A class and Classics not sanctioned by the IFPA? According to the points they are.
It's really a different can of worms, I thought it was where sixsixtie was trying to go with the OP, and I was saying that wasn't the case, but it was something to note when rule leanings come into play.
If it were him or me playing that same game of T2 on B or C class, I wouldn't imply they have anything to do with each other.
In my mind it was a fair judgement call by PAPA in any case. These are phenomonal players outside of any affiliations with any other associations.

I see where the confusion is. No, the IFPA doesn't dictate tournament rules at that level.

The basics requirements to be eligible for wppr points are:

1. The tournament has to be open to the public. Allowable exceptions are bars that don't allow minors, or if a player has been banned from a venue.

2. The tournament has to be open to all players of all skill levels. You can't have a "no pros" policy.

3. No team formats or wacky formats (like a one-handed tournament probably wouldn't be eligible).

4. IFPA must be notified at least one month in advance. Exceptions have been made for the launch parties, though.

5. You have to provide contact info - i.e. a website or email address where someone who sees your event on the calendar can get more info if they're interested in attending.

There might be a few other rules I'm forgetting, but that's basically it. How you run your event is up to you. I have run head-to-head time attack, single and double elim, casual flow, pin golf, wildcard, 4-player papa group style...

#32 7 years ago

As one of the people who was watching the game live and was asked his opinion of the situation when it happened, I agreed with awarding Josh the points.

T2 is a known buggy horror show, and pretty much always has been. HS2 is very similar. My personal recommendation would be to simply disallow their use in tournaments completely. The rationale is that, particularly in the case of this T2 glitch, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for the game to do what it did. Josh is clearly in multiball, the game clearly states get the super jackpot, he clearly makes the shot, and isn't awarded the points. As others have stated, the stakes were too high (10K on the line) to not be fair about this, and my recollection also is that every player agreed with the ruling. At the very least, they were aware of what happened and what score they had to beat.

The interesting footnote to all this is that Josh flat-out won the game anyway, which I know he was trying to do so that it wouldn't even be a consideration or a "gray" victory or whatever.

As for the MM example that was brought up... This is a tougher scenario. This behavior is perhaps not super-well-known, but I know about it and Lyman knows about it, and I'm sure plenty others do as well. It's in there for a very specific reason involving what switches are and aren't seen while the gate is opening. That is to say specifically, it is NOT a bug. I don't remember the configuration offhand, but I know I've discussed it with Lyman in the past and remember agreeing with him that there's nothing he could do about it. Rest assured, the course he took made the game do the correct thing more often than if the behavior was altered, and when you're producing software for an embedded system, you go with the percentages. Now if there was an extra behind-the-castle-gate switch, that probably would've eliminated the problem, but there are additional concerns when going down that road (where will it fit/mount, how much extra does it cost, etc.).

So I disagree about the castle thing, simply because Lyman would tell you that is how the behavior was designed.

#33 7 years ago

At what point in the video does this happen?

#34 7 years ago

I think its pretty simple really... if one would concede taking away points (or replaying a game) when a player was given an advantage over another based on a game malfunction or software glitch, then one would also do the inverse in the situation where a player was put at a disadvantage based on the same.

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