(Topic ID: 333025)

P3 Discussion Thread

By solarvalue

11 months ago


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There are 75 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 11 months ago

A place to discuss the pros and cons of the P3 pinball platform by Multimorphic without judgement. Go!

#2 11 months ago

I remember my first time with a p3 :-p

Before I ever played one, I remember seeing some video and pics of their first few years and thought it was super cool. I had a few people say the flipper felt weird etc. and at the time the price point was well beyond what I could afford. Once my local friend traded for a p3 and I came over and played it. Totally hooked. Heist and ritr did it in for me. Sold some games and ordered one!

I can’t wait for new games and modules. With more talent and ideas you can see how the platform has progressed. With the new FR it may finally hit with some of the people that didn’t get it or think it was “normal”, or didn’t like a theme?

I think the p3 does a fantastic job of making cool/good/fun games even if you don’t “love” the theme. Many people are obsessed with buying games based on theme as they have to have it even if it isn’t a great game. The more I play lexy the more I figure out and enjoy. Same with ccr and heist. The best part, I can swap games, and if I don’t like a game or module, I don’t buy or play it less but the other games could be my jam.

Playing p3 at a show doesn’t do full justice. But being at an owners house, playing, talking, then swapping modules etc, that’s the magic…

Oh, I don’t get the flipper thing. Even pre fuk update they felt like flippers….

#3 11 months ago

Had never heard of Multimorphic or P3 until I saw and played a prototype Lexy at Pin-a-gogo in 2016. Still had the look of a[n incredibly sophisticated] homebrew but was already fun. The flippers struck me as crisp and snappy; I look forward to trying the latest iteration.

The playfield animations and virtual targets were cool; I did not care about how “open” the playfield was because I could always tell what I was meant to shoot and there were always multiple targets beckoning. P3 and Heighway made my watch list at the festival. Cannon Lagoon did not appeal to me, then I went through a phase of relative disengagement so missed the release of CCR.

My grail pins, High Speed and LoTR saw me through the pandemic lockdown and much as I enjoy them, there were times when they were boring. Made me think about adaptability and variety in a smaller footprint, especially since space is at a premium in our HCOL area.

Finally saw Kevin’s Heist! videos and was 100% convinced the platform had matured. Due diligence confirmed: default digital back box, 4 flipper standard and Bluetooth on base machine. Looking forward to team play, playing live against others in different locations and the ability to save progress.

Have one on order and am very excited to play a production model for the first time. It’s a leap of faith for my first NIB but the Multimorphic team inspires confidence. I don’t need targets in the bottom third to be happy- the wall o’ scoops and side targets are low enough for my taste. Hitting the Yagov kicker, Shire, catapult in MM, creature in MB etc. were fortuitous bounces, rarely satisfying feats of pinball prowess. (I am not that good).

I also figure TJ and team will engineer something to outdo the Heist crane in terms of reaching the lower playfield. (Am openly hoping for a floating pop bumper/spaceship). And the existing modules plus FR will while away whatever time is needed for that to happen.

And while I believe and agree with the business proposition of bang for the buck per game being the best in the industry once you reach a certain number of modules, the attraction for me is not in value per game, but in the variety of style and engineering elegance the platform offers. I will never own more than a few machines (3), but thanks to Multimorphic, I will have the option to own many, many games. I intend to exercise those options liberally.

#4 11 months ago

I’m eager to try new ideas and new manufacturers. Tried AP (loved Houdini), Spooky, early JJP owner. Then Multimorphic. Took them a few years to get some steam going but I really think they have some incredibly creative engineers, game developers, artists… and the business model is very intriguing. I do wish they would do a horror theme (Drained is getting closer!). I’ve bought every single thing they’ve put out so far, and now I’m having to choose favourites, and honestly I think that’s a phenomenal thing. There’s a lot of complaining about the platform: “it’s expensive”, “the playfield is barren”, the “flippers are weird…”. It’s all bollocks

#5 11 months ago

Love my P3 so far. Maybe only downside for me right now is the quantity of bugs I am hitting in Weird Al. Games loses count of balls. Scoops go up and stay up in error. Game ending stuff.

Can’t wait for other modules to arrive though. Hope the code is a bit more mature on those.

#6 11 months ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

Love my P3 so far. Maybe only downside for me right now is the quantity of bugs I am hitting in Weird Al. Games loses count of balls. Scoops go up and stay up in error. Game ending stuff.
Can’t wait for other modules to arrive though. Hope the code is a bit more mature on those.

That’s not the code - you have some other, likely mechanical/opto issues going on. Have you posted in the main Multimorphic thread ?

#7 11 months ago

This ended up long I'll stick a tl;dr at the end.

When I was working with Heighway they were trying to push the idea of modular playfields. What I quickly realized is when you take that approach you're married to the very first cabinet design you release, because every playfield you make after that has to be backwards compatible with it. They went out of business long before that could really bite them in the ass, but it would have. They weren't forward looking enough.

Multimorphic clearly planned ahead better, but they're not immune to the same problem.

With the P3 what strikes me about it is how dated the LCD decision feels in 2023, and how it handcuffs every title to it. The problem of course being that you can't put any holes in the bottom 2/3rds of your playfield. Instead of being this "game of the future" it feels like we're in this new era of exciting design choices in pinball and the P3 can't take advantage of them because it's stuck with everything interesting happening up at the top of the game.

Just by way of demonstrating what I mean, let's look at this bonanza of new games that have been announced, and how the P3 would handle them.

--

Scooby-Doo: Interesting use of a widebody cabinet, P3 ruled out from the gate. But it also couldn't do the 2 banks of drop targets, the apron locks, or the controller drop target between the flippers.

--

Bond 60th: No shooter lane, so obviously no shooter lane return shot on the P3. No drop targets on the side. No spinning hat since you can't put one through the LCD.

--

Foo Fighters: No Dead Post to pop up through the LCD screen for the ball save. Inlane targets not possible unless you replace the entire flipper mechs with a new design just for that game. No double ramps on the left, or angled drop targets with the mono target behind them. No upkicker on the right. Limited in where you can put extra flippers, gotta work with the exist cab geometry.

--

Pulp Fiction: Probably no angled drop targets. It gets hard to tell when things are "over the line" on some of these playfields to be clear of the LCD or not. No subway shot from the top, because you can't run a subway under (and through) the LCD screen.

--

Galactic Tank Force: The least interesting new layout of all the new games, and it still couldn't be done on a P3. No way to do the Lucky flipper lanes, at least not without a whole new flipper set, and even then might be tricky. Can't tell if the middle ship targets and rocking UFO are too close for the LCD. But either way, no way to do shield between flippers.

--

Godfather: Has the same issue as Foo Fighters with the inlane target, which is maybe the most interesting innovation in the game design to me because of the speed of that return. I can't think of another pin that does anything like that. Can't float the pop bumper close to the flippers. Maybe more, I'm getting tired of typing these, I think I've made point.

--

Maybe I'm off about where something falls on one of these too btw, I'm not taking measurements. I'm just trying to make this point that you're restricted. And what do you get in return for those restrictions? I dunno honestly. Some effects? Mini games with shooting through things that don't change the ball trajectory?

Nothing on the LCD itself seems that interesting. Scott is doing a static insert layout, which I think is smart, but what is he truly getting back from the screen in return for not being able to add anything close to it? Some particle effects, and the ability to display some info. What else? I'm struggling to see the upside.

tl;dr I'm not even touching on the graphics, or actual visual design on the LCD. Just the big picture concept. I don't see the screen itself adding a lot, in relation to everything it takes away.

#8 11 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

That’s not the code - you have some other, likely mechanical/opto issues going on. Have you posted in the main Multimorphic thread ?

I have tickets open with support w/logs. I over simplified my comment. Trust me it’s code. I’ve hitting weird combinations of things.

Example: hitting the last VIP target on the way up through the pops. VIP gets announced, scoops turn yellow, don’t have time to come up because I just started Hardware store. VIP gets cancelled and I play the MB. With 2 balls left the scoops come back up for vip but turn blue. Start another MB at the same time(UHF I think). Scoops stay up and can’t shoot anything. Center is blocked. Had to let it all drain.

#9 11 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

There’s a lot of complaining about the platform: “it’s expensive”, “the playfield is barren”, the “flippers are weird…”. It’s all bollocks

The price was expensive. Everything else caught up, it's not now. And clearly modules are the best deal once you're bought in. No argument there.

All manufacturers have different flipper feel. Preference is personal, I don't think that's a big issue. Being stuck with the same layout without swapping them (and adding expense and removing some of the upside of the kit swapping) is more of a problem imo. I love all the new flipper area layout experimenting we're seeing.

But the "barren" thing isn't bollocks. It's a simple fact, you can't do as much with most of the playfield. Does that mean you can't make fun games? Of course not. But they're more limited in their freedom for geometry and mechs in a way that I find less interesting in this era of people trying more things.

Neither TNA or Rick & Morty could have been made on the P3. Scott's new game might be great, I really want to play it, but his experimentation and norm breaking is part of what has made him such an influential designer even with as few games as he's done.

#10 11 months ago

I'm a big theme park fan, and I've often thought "Universal Studios" or "Disneyland" could be a great theme for a game. But it'd be really hard to include all the "stuff" of a park in a single game. Consider Disneyland: You could maybe have a big castle on the playfield, maybe a winding "Space Mountain" ramp, but then how much real estate is left to work with? "Haunted Mansion" drop target, "Jungle Cruise" orbit?

However, I think the P3 format is capable of capturing a broad theme like that. Instead of having specific shots or targets represent aspects of the park, you can have a more flexible layout and utilize the screen etc. to set the stage. I.e. you hit a few shots to start a "Haunted Mansion" mode, and then the screen graphics/lighting change to give the whole playfield a Haunted Mansion look, and you follow the goals as instructed. When the mode is done, you "exit" the mansion and the playfield is back to Main Street USA. (I haven't played Weird Al yet, but it seems like they utilize a very similar structure with the "museum lobby" being the default area and then the game transforming for the different song modes).

I'm sure the license for Disneyland or Universal Studios would be very challenging to get, but I'm inspired by the flexibility the P3 platform provides, and in the meantime i'll daydream about these themes.

#11 11 months ago

The screen may take away possibilities, but it also adds others. I still think we will see more items added above the lower playfield, maybe even the pop bumpers they teased in the past. I have some ideas floating in my head on some of these that I look forward to experimenting with.

We definitely will see different flipper/lower third configurations because if nothing else I plan on making some. swapping lower thirds could add much different feel to already existing games/modules.

At the moment I'm still waiting for my P3 and 4 modules to arrive, but I definitely enjoy making and tinkering with things just as much as playing with them, and to me at least the P3 is the ultimate tinkerers playground. I have no delusions that I have a LOT to learn, but I look forward to it.

#12 11 months ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

I have tickets open with support w/logs. I over simplified my comment. Trust me it’s code. I’ve hitting weird combinations of things.

The code is responding to events from the hardware, and so a hardware issue gives the code an incorrect view of the world. The longer the game is played in an invalid state, the more assumptions break and behavior appears more and more strange to the player.

My guess is that you have an opto out of alignment, specifically the ticket counter hole (legit events from that opto cause the game to kick a ball into play and also can abort VIP/harvey scoops) That would explain the multiball being over from a software perspective but two physical balls still in play.

Of course, I'm guessing, but I will be able to check tomorrow with your log and we will get you sorted asap.

#13 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I'm just trying to make this point that you're restricted. And what do you get in return for those restrictions? I dunno honestly. Some effects? Mini games with shooting through things that don't change the ball trajectory?

Nothing on the LCD itself seems that interesting. Scott is doing a static insert layout, which I think is smart, but what is he truly getting back from the screen in return for not being able to add anything close to it? Some particle effects, and the ability to display some info. What else? I'm struggling to see the upside.

There's a few things to say here. Firstly, the removable playfield cannot be too large, otherwise it becomes too heavy and difficult to swap games. If swapping games is too much of a chore, people won't do it. The P3 design is the sweet spot, the upper playfield is a manageable size and weight and it is where most of the mechs and features in a pinball game reside.
So, ok, you are restricted to having your traditional shots in the upper 1/3 or so. However, as others have said, the platform is designed in such a way that the the rest of the machine is also modular. You can swap in different flipper configurations, different side modules (we've already seen the addition of upper flipper modules on each side) and it is also possible to design mechs which can be positioned over the middle 3rd of the game. The last of these hasn't been done yet, but it's coming.
What do you get from the screen? A bunch. "The ability to display some info" is huge because it gives you the ability switch scenes, tell more of a story, create more complex rules and explore different types of games.

#14 11 months ago
Quoted from BorgDog:

The screen may take away possibilities, but it also adds others.

For sure, everything is a tradeoff. I just don't see much of what it adds as particularly interesting or valuable. And I find the vast majority of the graphics done so far rather unappealing. A lot of "Flash web style" animation. I used to be a Flash developer, not knocking it, but it's kind janky at the same time. Weird Al moving his arms like a paper doll kind of stuff.

It takes tremendous time and effort (and realistically budget) to fill a huge screen with graphic nicely, or you have to be very clever in your usage. What Scott is doing is clever, but I also see it and think "why couldn't this have just been a real playfield, and what else could he have done if it was?" Just not sure what it's adding beyond some particle effects.

The 'Asteroids' demo was neat. The ball tracking is clever. But without physical interaction I don't find shooting virtual targets very compelling. I can get that kind of experience in a video game already.

#15 11 months ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

"The ability to display some info" is huge because it gives you the ability switch scenes, tell more of a story, create more complex rules and explore different types of games.

I care about all of that about as much as I care about the LCD in the backbox of a Stern or a JJP tbh, which is to say, not very much. I was really glad when Pinball Bros yanked the screen out of the playfield of Alien too.

I guess for me I'd say it's not really huge. Or at least I have yet to see someone demonstrate it as such. If a game does it I'll admit it.

As far as rules go, I already think Stern and JJP have pushed the limits of what rule complexity should be. I don't want them more complex than that, and they've managed it without a screen on the playfield. So I don't find that particular argument compelling.

Quoted from solarvalue:

So, ok, you are restricted to having your traditional shots in the upper 1/3 or so. However, as others have said, the platform is designed in such a way that the the rest of the machine is also modular. You can swap in different flipper configurations, different side modules (we've already seen the addition of upper flipper modules on each side) and it is also possible to design mechs which can be positioned over the middle 3rd of the game. The last of these hasn't been done yet, but it's coming

When someone manages to show a P3 with a playfield like Godzilla's I'm happy to evaluate where we are. Until then I feel like I've heard it's coming for a long time. So I'm going to judge based on what I've seen for now.

I actually thought when Scott told me he was going to do something different he meant a new lower playfield mech, that would be totally his style. It's not that I don't believe someone could do it. But let's see it first.

#16 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

As far as rules go, I already think Stern and JJP have pushed the limits of what rule complexity should be. I don't want them more complex than that, and they've managed it without a screen on the playfield. So I don't find that particular argument compelling.

Yeah, what I am saying is that you can have a deeper game but make it easy to understand and intuitive via the screen. It also provides a level of immersion that isn't possible in traditional pinball.

Quoted from Aurich:

It's not that I don't believe someone could do it. But let's see it first.

Fair enough. I would also say that the fact that you don't have to provide a cabinet each time means that there is more money left for other things, like mechs. If you look at the mechs in Heist, Weird Al and now Final Resistance, I would argue that the level of interaction, complexity and innovation compares very favorably with traditional games.

#17 11 months ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

It also provides a level of immersion that isn't possible in traditional pinball.

With all due respect these are empty buzzwords to me. I play pinball to play pinball, I'm immersed in the 'world under glass', I don't need a screen. If anything I find it distracting from the purpose of play, which is to be watching the ball and the physical interactions.

I'm delighted that in 2023 we have a new pinball with alphanumeric displays and no LCD. The art is holding me back for the price, but if you offered me any of the new games announced for free Pulp Fiction is the one I'd take.

Quoted from solarvalue:

I would also say that the fact that you don't have to provide a cabinet each time means that there is more money left for other things, like mechs. If you look at the mechs in Heist, Weird Al and now Final Resistance, I would argue that the level of interaction, complexity and innovation compares very favorably with traditional games.

The price of modules is the one clear advantage the P3 has. If there were a bunch I thought were great it would be compelling for sure. And they all have real mechs, this isn't some dumb "it's virtual pinball" argument.

#18 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

With the P3 what strikes me about it is how dated the LCD decision feels in 2023, and how it handcuffs every title to it.

shooting through things that don't change the ball trajectory

Directions on the lcd make rule sets more accessible which opens up the possibility of more complexity with an easier learning curve. I personally find that appealing.

The ball trajectory not changing with the lcd based targets is an interesting point. I view that as a challenge for the game designers; the satisfaction of hitting a bash toy must be replaced with something else. The floating dollars in Heist! are a good use of the tech in lieu of mech (imo). But it is limited.

The lcd doesn’t feel dated to me at all. It does seem to pose unique challenges for game design. I am encouraged that each game seems to explore different approaches.

Thanks for your perspective, Aurich. I may or may not agree on any given point but I appreciate your observations and how you present them.

#19 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

With all due respect these are empty buzzwords to me. I play pinball to play pinball, I'm immersed in the 'world under glass', I don't need a screen. If anything I find it distracting from the purpose of play, which is to be watching the ball and the physical interactions.

What I mean by that is that the playfield screen becomes part of the the "world under glass" and allows you to have multiple worlds with different backgrounds for different modes. For example in Heist where you have the cat burglar dangling from the crane over a room in one mode and the car chase scene in another mode. It's hard to create this level of immersion in the theme when you only have flashing inserts and sound to differentiate between modes. Of course, you can show different things on the backbox display in traditional pinball too, but then you are not able to watch the ball and the screen at the same time.

10
#20 11 months ago

Have a P3, love it. Have Weird Al, and Heist, CCR, and FR are all on order.

The first time I played a P3... I hated it. The second time I played a P3, I thought it was dumb. The third time, it was okay to good. What changed? The first few times I was at pinball shows. They were those short mini games. Barnyard, a few I can't remember. If all you could play were those I would say it was dumb. The third time I played Heist. It's a good game, but totally not worth dropping $11,000 on a machine. I like it about as much as a Random 90s Bally Williams. I ponied up for the Weird Al as it looked different and I'm that "it's a dream theme guy". When I ordered, I ordered the Heist because $3,000 for a game you like as much as a random Bally Williams is still a great deal. On Cosmic Cart Racing, Sorcerers Apprentice and Ranger in the Ruins look good, so $3,000 (at the time) for CCR, Sorcerer's Apprentice (yes, it's $500) and RITR is really neat. Scott Danesi on Final resistance? All of the sudden 1/2 of the games in my lineup will be P3 modules. The secondary market for modules seems pretty strong, and I should be able to move any of them for about what I paid -$500 which is not bad for NIB depreciation. I trade pins alot and these can be shot through the mail.

As an owner, I really dig the modular functionality of these. I like being able to pull out the flippers and screen, change the art, and the whole thing is actually really serviceable minus the weight.

My kids like Weird Al and its the pin they play most when they actually play pins in the basement.

I did have an issue with my NIB Weird Al, and the "send logs to multimorphic" along with some tickets got me a new part and instructions on how to fix it along with a VTC with tech support.

I think the biggest thing hurting the system right now is lack of public locations to play it, and the way it is often presented at pinball shows. Try out a P3 with this mini game that is a small sliver of what it can do! You know that mode in Avengers where you have a limited number of flips to make certain shots? Imagine if you waited in line at a show to try Avengers and your only exposure to the game was that mode. It wouldn't feel like real pinball to you right?

I'm bringing my WAMONH LE to Pinfest and putting it on freeplay this year if anyone wants to try it out.

Multi (resized).jpgMulti (resized).jpg
#21 11 months ago
Quoted from Mocean:

The code is responding to events from the hardware, and so a hardware issue gives the code an incorrect view of the world. The longer the game is played in an invalid state, the more assumptions break and behavior appears more and more strange to the player.
My guess is that you have an opto out of alignment, specifically the ticket counter hole (legit events from that opto cause the game to kick a ball into play and also can abort VIP/harvey scoops) That would explain the multiball being over from a software perspective but two physical balls still in play.
Of course, I'm guessing, but I will be able to check tomorrow with your log and we will get you sorted asap.

That certainly would explain why I have have multiple MB bugs submitted. How they get triggered was the thing that made me think bug. All were a rapid sequence of unlikely events.

#22 11 months ago

I really like the ability to switch between the main module game like Heist and ROCs. ROCs is the only software based game available for my modules that intrigues me. I would really like to see multimorphic develop more software options for existing playfields. Not sure if it would make sense from a business perspective though.

#23 11 months ago
Quoted from Kwaheltrut:I really like the ability to switch between the main module game like Heist and ROCs. ROCs is the only software based game available for my modules that intrigues me. I would really like to see multimorphic develop more software options for existing playfields. Not sure if it would make sense from a business perspective though.

It absolutely does. Not really for something licensed like Weird Al, but Sorcerer's apprentice got me to order a CCR. Is CCR worth it as a stand alone? I don't thinks so... but is it worth it with 2 fully fledged games on one module? I think so... and the mini game RITR can be added if you really want to change it up. I have no interest in a stand alone Canon lagoon... but the pitch and bat software makes it appealing.

#24 11 months ago
Quoted from Kwaheltrut:I really like the ability to switch between the main module game like Heist and ROCs. ROCs is the only software based game available for my modules that intrigues me. I would really like to see multimorphic develop more software options for existing playfields. Not sure if it would make sense from a business perspective though.

Same here - the Sorcerer's Apprentice game really added a lot to the CCR playfield - I tend to keep the playfields in for long periods of time, and CCR/SA stayed in for months and months. Being able to switch out to play a game like ROCs is so quick; suddenly you're playing whole different game. I do wish they'd do another game like ROCs, maybe based on Missile Command for example.

#25 11 months ago

Final Resistance stream in 1.5 hours
8pm ET/7pm CT/5pm PT
Streaming on http://twitch.tv/buffalopinball

#26 11 months ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Final resistance stream in 2. 5 hours
8pm ET/7pm CT/5pm PT
Streaming on http://twitch.tv/buffalopinball

might want to check your math

#27 11 months ago
Quoted from BorgDog:

might want to check your math

Oh, thanks, I'm not in the US so your time zones always baffle me.

#28 11 months ago

Watched the FR stream. Game looks like a lot of fun! Definitely still has Scott's DNA all over it still. But I never said you couldn't make a fun game or express yourself on the P3 so not really surprising.

I 100% support my friend and wish nothing but success for his game, and I very much want to play it.

Also, just being honest, I'd find it personally more compelling if it was just a standard new game with a traditional playfield. I think making the screen inserts static was a good call though, and tying the virtual and real lighting animations together was slick. I just couldn't help but see that and think "this would work on any platform really". It would be different too, just possible. And it wasn't what Scott wanted, which is fine.

Anyways, that's just me being honest about my bias. The truth is this is the most compelling P3 game I've seen so far, and I think it's a combination of Scott's energy, both in terms of design and music and theme, and the call to utilize the LCD in a way that wasn't so distracting and un-integrated with the traditional core pinball experience.

#29 11 months ago

"P3 can't do what these mordern traditional games are doing."

Well... the manufacturers of those games can't do what P3 is doing.

#30 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The truth is this is the most compelling P3 game I've seen so far, and I think it's a combination of Scott's energy, both in terms of design and music and theme, and the call to utilize the LCD in a way that wasn't so distracting and un-integrated with the traditional core pinball experience.

I appreciate your preference for the look and familiarity of a typical pinball playfield, but disagree with broadly characterizing the LCD on the other P3 pinball modules as distracting or un-integrated. It’s just different. LL, Heist and WA all use the LCD in ways that are very well integrated with the theme and gameplay. And there seems to have been a conscious effort not to use the screen in superfluous ways. How is the playfield LCD different then other developments like the backbox LCD or the addition of pinstadium type lighting? The great thing about the P3, highlighted by FR, is its ability to offer such a variety of truly different experiences within a single platform.

#31 11 months ago

Multimorphic uses the LCD in innovative ways --> Pinside: I wish they would just have static inserts like on a traditional game
Multimorphic uses static inserts --> Pinside: This could just be a traditional game with a standard playfield

#32 11 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

LL, Heist and WA all use the LCD in ways that are very well integrated with the theme and gameplay.

We can play this "they're all different in their own way!" game all day. It's true, but it's not really meaningful to a discussion.

If you like it you like it, it comes down to a judgement call, not an objective truth. I personally disagree, I don't think they're well integrated, I think they mostly look bad, are unnecessarily distracting, and don't actually add anything of any value to the experience for me.

I'm not going to sugarcoat it, I think this looks really unappealing:

Lexy (resized).pngLexy (resized).png

I pulled up a Deadflip stream of Lexy and jumped randomly in the video for a screenshot. I've played it, so I know I could list lots more, but one example will do. You can call that integration if you wish. I call it a huge waste of space that could be actually interesting. It's definitely not a "conscious effort not to use the screen in superfluous ways" in my book.

Quoted from luckymoey:

How is the playfield LCD different then other developments like the backbox LCD or the addition of pinstadium type lighting?

It's different because none of those things are the same in how they affect the game. I don't use Pinstadiums and I think they're dumb, and I think the backbox LCD has probably overall been a bad thing for pinball. But neither one of them take away physical space for interesting layout choices, so I don't think they're really worth comparing. You can have a game with a full backbox LCD and the brightest, most obnoxious Pinstadiums they sell and you can still put a ramp near the flippers.

#33 11 months ago

Meanwhile...

FR (resized).pngFR (resized).png
#34 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

If you like it you like it, it comes down to a judgement call, not an objective truth.

Didn't say it was an objective truth. Just that I disagreed with broadly characterizing the LCD on other P3 games as distracting and unintegrated, and would encourage anyone considering the platform to watch some streams and ideally get quality play time to make up their own mind. You have a large voice on the site, not that different than a podcaster, and can have a significant influence on the perception of the platform. Fair enough, but I generally don't like it when someone who hasn't really played a machine expresses such strong opinions - similar to someone who leaves a crappy review in the rating system after putting on a few games at the bar.

Quoted from Aurich:

It's different because none of those things are the same in how they affect the game.

I highlighted the back-box LCD because similar to the P3 LCD it elicits strong opinions and has fundamentally affected the playing experience. It's not just the LCD, but how it's changed the approach to rules, story telling, etc. And in reality, sucked $'s from the mechanical side. With the modularity of the P3 though, Multimorphic doesn't necessarily face the same trade-offs and has delivered loaded modules with Heist and Weird Al. Would be great to have some more on the lower playfield, but like Stern reminds us every time they raise prices it's about the level of fun.

#35 11 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

You have a large voice on the site, not that different than a podcaster, and can have a significant influence on the perception of the platform.

I'm just another poster on a forum. I'm not a mod, I'm not employed by any pinball companies, I don't have a podcast or a YouTube presence. I don't wield any power. If you find my posts influential for some reason I hope it's because I put time into trying to express a point of view I guess? I try and be thoughtful.

This thread was started at my suggestion, but I specifically didn't want to be the opening poster and look like I had an agenda. I didn't want to get hung up on my criticisms in Scott's announcement thread. I've tried to not drag negativity into the P3 club.

Furthermore, I put my own work out there, subject to the same criticism as anything else. I can promise you plenty of people have made things far more personal than I ever have. I honestly try to be as fair as I can.

The real truth is I only post about things I care about. If I think a game is a waste of time I don't discuss it. I could list a bunch of recent releases I've not written much if anything about because they do nothing for me and it doesn't really mean anything to me if they improve or not.

Quoted from luckymoey:

I highlighted the back-box LCD because similar to the P3 LCD it elicits strong opinions and has fundamentally affected the playing experience.

I think you're right, but what it's affected is the rules. If you were to say for instance "I think rules have become overly complicated since LCDs became standard" I wouldn't disagree. But that's a separate conversation really, because the thing I'm trying to discuss is playfield design.

I think we're in a new era of really interesting development in pinball playfields. We'll see where it goes, but 10 years ago the idea of Stern releasing a game without pops would have been preposterous. We have several new single level games. New designers.

If you are a P3 fan I think it's counter-productive to try and drown out criticism of the platform (this isn't directed at you, but it's very much true for a lot of vocal P3 fans on this site) and actually push to see more mechanical innovation in that empty bottom 2/3rds of the game. To see more than a big screen. Owners of the platform would benefit.

#36 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

more mechanical innovation in that empty bottom 2/3rds of the game.

There's definitely been steps in that direction, the crane in Heist and the cross-over wireform in Weird Al, for example. I think everyone would love to see mechs over the screen and different flipper modules.

#37 11 months ago

How have owners found maintenance? There’s a cool UK guys thread on mastodon I found that was super interesting. Also how have home collectors found the games additional weight? I have a hard enough time with two people getting stern games into my basement.

https://mstdn.social/@ifixcoinops/109955865323595810

#38 11 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

How have owners found maintenance? There’s a cool UK guys thread on mastodon I found that was super interesting. Also how have home collectors found the games additional weight? I have a hard enough time with two people getting stern games into my basement.
https://mstdn.social/@ifixcoinops/109955865323595810

Overall, it’s a bunch of clueless operators having fun playing off each other. In particular, their comments about the hardware and software looking dodgy are the opposite of the truth. The design is very robust. Just look at the relatively few issues raised by owners. But they do raise some legitimate questions about ease of maintenance.

The thing weighs a ton, even with the module out. If you struggle getting a Stern down stairs you’ll be in the hospital trying to move the P3.

The menu system can also be confusing. The multiple menus they complain about are necessary given the different modules. Not sure how you’d simplify but there does seem to be some redundancies. Everything you could possibly want is there but isn’t always intuitive to find. Like other things with the P3, you need to spend time learning it to fully appreciate the design/logic. It’s a geek’s paradise.

While the design & build are robust, I do worry about working on some of the heavily packed modules. The cabinet components are straightforward, but the modules are so packed getting at things to maintain or replace can be difficult. The good thing is they are easy to ship back to MM if really needed. Plus the warranty and tech support are excellent.

Overall, the machine can be intimidating because it’s so different, even for experienced hobbyists, but you just need to invest time in learning the platform. If you’re the type that just doesn’t work on machines, then would be careful buying without access to someone who can help.

#39 11 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

How have owners found maintenance? There’s a cool UK guys thread on mastodon I found that was super interesting. Also how have home collectors found the games additional weight? I have a hard enough time with two people getting stern games into my basement.
https://mstdn.social/@ifixcoinops/109955865323595810

That thread has been debunked. It was written tongue in cheek and with exaggeration. Basically it's the amusing thoughts of an old time pinball mechanic working on a P3 for the first time and with no background. That would be like taking a 15th century horse and buggy driver and putting him in a car of today and just handing him the keys.

The article was written this past March 2nd and he refers to them at one point as, The Heighway Pinball guys. He claims the flippers are going to break a lot so they should be replaced each time you wax? Oh, and waxing the acrylic playfield will leave a sticky residue? LOL! It's all ridiculous as you don't use wax.

He goes on and on and it's pretty funny once you understand its creative writing.

To answer your two questions:

"How have owners found maintenance"?
Maintenance is easy and the machine was engineered for serviceability. There is a learning curve and it reminded me of the good old days as an enthusiastic newbie with my first pinball machine. Plenty of online tutorials from Multimorphic and super fast tech support.

"How have home collectors found the games additional weight"?
Yep, this machine is built like a tank and heavy. But not "twice as heavy" as the thread claims. I moved my P3 in by myself with my escalera and set it up myself with my HF lift table. If you don't have those tools, a second person as you've already been doing, will be needed. But once set up, I have furniture sliders and move it around by myself all of the time.

A lot of false rumors are floating around on Pinside and elsewhere and I recommend you find someone local that has a P3 and ask for a walk through. I've just ordered a second cabinet so I'll have two in my game room.

#40 11 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

There’s a cool UK guys thread on mastodon I found that was super interesting.

There's a response to that thread in the P3 owner's club. I would characterize it as dismissive, you can read it yourself though. Which doesn't mean the tech's complaints are all valid, but if someone is that confused it should be an opportunity to learn from their response, not be so defensive. Other people are going to struggle in the same way, demanding that everyone just learn why your different system works the way it does isn't a path to acceptance. These people aren't morons, they're experienced techs. Being different is kinda your problem, not theirs.

The problem is the P3 is basically incapable of broad change. So there's no real incentive to take systemic feedback to heart. You can't say "you know, we actually have a way to do that thing this guy struggled with, but clearly we need to make it easier to understand or access" when your hardware base has to remain the same in order to stay backwards compatible.

You're already seeing the classic problem with modular systems, there's a divide between people with translites and backbox screens. Which means you ultimately can't use the backbox in a way that's required for your game unless you're willing to cut off those who didn't upgrade. (I really like the virtual segments on it for Scott's game, but that's mirrored below the flippers obviously and not necessary.)

I watched Heighway walk into that exact same trap.

The P3 is clearly meant for home ownership and not operator needs (you don't put games on route with magnetically removable side art). But I see a lot of people who are curious about it lament they're never able to find one on location to try.

#41 11 months ago

Wasnt someone coming out with some nice cases to store the p3 modules? Are they for sale?

#42 11 months ago

Count us in as a public P3 venue.

I wouldn’t put one on location unattended, but having it at the front of our boutique museum for everyone to see (and respond quickly if anything needs attention)? Perfect.

#43 11 months ago
Quoted from NicoVolta:

Count us in as a public P3 venue.
I wouldn’t put one on location unattended, but having it at the front of our boutique museum for everyone to see (and respond quickly if anything needs attention)? Perfect.

That's great, and genuinely good for you, the P3 needs it.

But "I don't leave it unattended and I'm always nearby to respond if it needs attention" is a passion project, not operating.

I need to get out to AYCE Gogi West Hills, they have a Weird Al on location there. I want to try it. But Shane is a P3 distributor and also the best kind of madman with half his location games being LEs, and not really a typical model either.

They do exist, just hard to find.

#44 11 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

How have owners found maintenance? There’s a cool UK guys thread on mastodon I found that was super interesting. Also how have home collectors found the games additional weight? I have a hard enough time with two people getting stern games into my basement.
https://mstdn.social/@ifixcoinops/109955865323595810

That is a HILARIOUS thread but does not really reflect the ease or difficulty of maintenance on the platform. Like any game, there’s some stuff that’s kind of a pain, but by and large the majority of maintenance is well thought out and it’s very easy to get to most components (certainly the components which wear quickly). The “ifixcoinops” guy’s thread there is mostly an illustration that you should probably read the support documents when trying to fix something you’re unfamiliar with !

#45 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

You're already seeing the classic problem with modular systems, there's a divide between people with translites and backbox screens. Which means you ultimately can't use the backbox in a way that's required for your game unless you're willing to cut off those who didn't upgrade. (I really like the virtual segments on it for Scott's game, but that's mirrored below the flippers obviously and not necessary.)
I watched Heighway walk into that exact same trap.

That is not a problem, all of the games work regardless of which backbox you have, the backbox screen is not required for any games. You are not playing any of the games on the backbox. Is it different if you have the translite, sure spectators don't get as good of a view, for the player no difference.

Quoted from Aurich:

The problem is the P3 is basically incapable of broad change.

Seriously? The P3 is the definition of broad change. What do you think it is when you swap modules in and out. Also, they have already made changes to the VUK system from coils to servos, and guess what everyone still works. May there come a time when something breaks backwards compatibility? maybe, but yeah lets just go back to making machines the traditional way and not do any innovation because eventually something might not be backwards compatible. Because yeah spike 2 is backwards compatible with spike 1 and SAM and whitestar.. oh wait.

We get it, you don't like P3. Fine, not everyone has to like everything, but to come on here supposedly to have a 'discussion' and then just continue to spout your biases and make stuff up is just ridiculous.

#46 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The problem is the P3 is basically incapable of broad change.

Quoted from BorgDog:

Also, they have already made changes to the VUK system from coils to servos, and guess what everyone still works.

It also started as a 2 flipper system. With Heist it added a 3rd, and now Al added a 4th (not counting the upper playfield).

Moving forward, let's either transition to a broader discussion of the P3 or else change the thread title to "Everyone try to convince Aurich to like the P3." Hopefully the former, because no amount of "discussion" is going to change anything - and that's fine. I personally don't care who doesn't like the P3, and don't have the interest/energy to try and convince someone.

Everyone I have introduced to the P3 at my place has LOVED it, which was cool. But if any future guests don't like it, that's cool too, I have lots of other games for them to play.

#47 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

There's a response to that thread in the P3 owner's club. I would characterize it as dismissive, you can read it yourself though. Which doesn't mean the tech's complaints are all valid, but if someone is that confused it should be an opportunity to learn from their response, not be so defensive. Other people are going to struggle in the same way, demanding that everyone just learn why your different system works the way it does isn't a path to acceptance. These people aren't morons, they're experienced techs. Being different is kinda your problem, not theirs.
The problem is the P3 is basically incapable of broad change. So there's no real incentive to take systemic feedback to heart. You can't say "you know, we actually have a way to do that thing this guy struggled with, but clearly we need to make it easier to understand or access" when your hardware base has to remain the same in order to stay backwards compatible.
You're already seeing the classic problem with modular systems, there's a divide between people with translites and backbox screens. Which means you ultimately can't use the backbox in a way that's required for your game unless you're willing to cut off those who didn't upgrade. (I really like the virtual segments on it for Scott's game, but that's mirrored below the flippers obviously and not necessary.)
I watched Heighway walk into that exact same trap.
The P3 is clearly meant for home ownership and not operator needs (you don't put games on route with magnetically removable side art). But I see a lot of people who are curious about it lament they're never able to find one on location to try.

I’m a P3 owner and would like the chime in about the tech/repair aspect of this game. For background, I’ve rebuilt or repaired over 100 games from woodrails all the way up to what is being sold new. I also have a Bachelors Degree in Systems Engineering.

From a repair and troubleshooting aspect, the P3 is the best pinball machine I have seen thus far. Holes are even drilled in brackets to allow bolts and screws to be removed from behind them without disassembling the bracket. The platform was clearly designed with repair and disassembly in mind. I had to change a wall servo last week and it was a pain in the ass, but could have been way worse.

I think the menus are well thought out and repair instructions are well written. They have many good videos for first time owners. Initial ownership is daunting. A criticism I have is Multimorphics resources are not clearly laid out. Everything is there and very well done, but you have to dig a little behind an account on their website to find it.

For anyone looking for an an example of the very best guide/manual I’ve seen in pinball, Check out the owners manual for Dutch Pinballs TBL.

#48 11 months ago

Alright, well it's pretty obvious at this point that people are just looking for P3 Owners Thread Part 2, so I'm going to stop wasting my time.

#49 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Alright, well it's pretty obvious at this point that people are just looking for P3 Owners Thread Part 2, so I'm going to stop wasting my time.

We don't need another owners thread. But if all this thread is going to be is people trying to talk you into liking the platform, not only is that futile, but then I know not to bother checking back in.

#50 11 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Alright, well it's pretty obvious at this point that people are just looking for P3 Owners Thread Part 2, so I'm going to stop wasting my time.

The way I hope to convince people to like the P3 is by making games that people enjoy. I've put a metric ton of time, effort, and passion into these last two games that I've been involved in --and it's not just me: it has been a metric ton of work for everyone on these teams-- but my point is that I am very happy with the results. Both WAMONH and FR feel very special to me. I'm proud of them.

My point is this: please just play the games at some point? I honestly hope you enjoy them. I hope everyone does. That's the intention here.

I don't expect you to be a buyer after playing these games, heck I don't even expect you to say something nice about them! I just hope that through actually experiencing these games first-hand that you might enjoy yourself *just enough* so that you can connect with something good about them, and feel less compelled to add negativity/disapproval in threads where someone posts that they do enjoy these games.

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