(Topic ID: 93495)

P-ROC and copyrights


By StrangelovePhD

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 38 posts
  • 21 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by PPS
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    #1 5 years ago

    Can someone fill me in on what kind of copyright issues everyone who has P-ROC'd a themed game has come across? I understand the Matrix guys can't or won't release the code because it uses stuff from the movie. How have the pinnovating guys got around with what they have done with Demo Man? I am considering picking up a P-ROC board but if I do that I would like to release the code when I am done without a copyright headache. Do you just limit the releases to stay under the radar? Release the code to the internet and just never take credit or leave anything that can be traced back?

    #2 5 years ago

    You can do pretty much whatever you want as long as it's for personal use only. Copyright troubles enter the picture as soon as you release art, voices, sounds, designs, etc without permission of the copyright owner.

    However--some organizations/individuals turn a blind eye to fan-made content so long as it is for non-commercial/free use.

    #3 5 years ago

    If you felt the need to release code that contained copyrighted images, you would probably want to anonymously post it to the Usenet Newsgroups.

    -11
    #4 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    If you felt the need to release code that contained copyrighted images, you would probably want to anonymously post it to the Usenet Newsgroups.

    Yes do that ... And hope that no one cares ... As if they do they can subpoena your records as well as put you in a deposition .... So. It won't be so funny after that ... As the costs and the penalties are pretty extreme ... And hopefully some licensee does not want to make an example out of someone ...

    #5 5 years ago

    Yeah, remember how that guy got sued into oblivion for releasing that scrolling Matrix screensaver? Er, um, neither do I.

    #6 5 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    Yes do that ... And hope that no one cares ... As if they do they can subpoena your records as well as put you in a deposition .... So. It won't be so funny after that ... As the costs and the penalties are pretty extreme ... And hopefully some licensee does not want to make an example out of someone ...

    LAME. That kind of attitude makes me want to do it out of spite. Waste your money on me.

    BRING BACK BALLS OF STEEL.

    #7 5 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    And hopefully some licensee does not want to make an example out of someone ...

    Veiled threats are crass and unbecoming and makes you come off as a bully.

    I understand you have a financial stake in protecting your assets. Handle such matters behind the scenes.

    #8 5 years ago

    PPS needs a pinside PR department.

    #9 5 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    Yes do that ... And hope that no one cares ... As if they do they can subpoena your records as well as put you in a deposition .... So. It won't be so funny after that ... As the costs and the penalties are pretty extreme ... And hopefully some licensee does not want to make an example out of someone ...

    The Newsgroups are postable anonymously.

    So if someone wants to make a 2.0 version of Adam's Family and Raul Julia's widow doesn't like it, she is not going to be able to find anyone to send a S&D to.

    Ask Steve Ritchie how funny it was when people were posting about Stern on Usenet and Gary said "Call, and have that shit taken down!". LOL

    Anyone making a forum announcement of any "Fanware" needs to create a new account using TOR or IP Tunneling to hide their IP address and of course use a free email that was signed up for also under TOR.

    I never post on the net or email with my actual IP, and neither should you.

    edwardCIA-NSA-Edward-Snowden_1.jpg

    #10 5 years ago

    http://forums.arcade-museum.com/archive/index.php/t-136958.html

    im still hot about balls of steel getting shut down.

    the GTB no ROMs (hah) and no manuals is pretty damn annoying too. WHY WHY WHY oh thats right $$$

    #11 5 years ago

    GTB manuals are usually on alt.binaries.books.technical or alt.binaries.ebooks.technical

    #12 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    GTB manuals are usually on alt.binaries.books.technical or alt.binaries.ebooks.technical

    If you know where to look, you can find a lot of goodies. =D

    #13 5 years ago

    I'd think You can make a game based upon an existing theme ... just don't use the DMD animations, source code, or sound effects. Using an existing table / art is ok... as long as you don't distribute it with your release.

    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    I'd think You can make a game based upon an existing theme ... just don't use the DMD animations, source code, or sound effects. Using an existing table / art is ok... as long as you don't distribute it with your release.

    Why even take the chance?

    If you are going to release your Fanware to the the world, best to do it completely anonymously.

    -

    A few years ago I almost lost my job because a few PinDicks were trying to get me fired from work.

    I learned that 100% stealth is the way to be.

    #15 5 years ago

    Not disagreeing. But as PPS mentioned in a threatening tone... it's probably a good idea to do both.
    I'd welcome Rick or anyone else to sue me for using a non-licensed theme table for a completely new work on a table I already own.

    #16 5 years ago

    Yeah...Williams legal team is sitting around waiting for some guy in his garage to use an image or sound file from a 25 year old game so they can converge on his location and sue him for $500.00 in lost revenue.
    DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE.

    #17 5 years ago

    How were the Matrix guys able to sell a few pins?

    #18 5 years ago
    Quoted from jayhawkai:

    Yeah, remember how that guy got sued into oblivion for releasing that scrolling Matrix screensaver? Er, um, neither do I.

    Like I alluded to in an earlier post, movie franchise owners tend to be a bit more forgiving with freely distributed fan-made content--it's a kind of wink-and-nod arrangement. Pinball companies, on the other hand, are incredibly strict about copyright and licensing. Granted, there is a difference between content (movie characters and stories) and goods (pinball parts).

    #19 5 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    Yes do that ... And hope that no one cares ... As if they do they can subpoena your records as well as put you in a deposition .... So. It won't be so funny after that ... As the costs and the penalties are pretty extreme ... And hopefully some licensee does not want to make an example out of someone ...

    lol i love you man

    go sue some people on usenet, HBO and hollywood can't do it but I am sure you and Williams can!

    #21 5 years ago

    Some peoples ego's are getting to big for pinball.

    #22 5 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    When I fix a Bally MPU, and send it off to someone loaded with ROMs does it make you want to sue me?
    No one tell the GTB people, cuz it has happened too.

    That's a repair service, rather than a product purchase.

    The ROM software is freely accessible for Bally/Williams/DE machines, so there's no problem with ROMs there. Gottlieb is a bit different where their ROMs need to originate from an authorized reseller since they have not been publicly released.

    #23 5 years ago

    From the little digging around that I did with my F-14 "Second Sortie" (P-ROC) project, it's pretty much as folks above have said.

    - For your own personal use, anything goes. It's your machine, do what you like with it.
    - If you are looking to distribute the work (either selling it or giving it away) then it can't contain any of the original IP.

    So if it has a DMD display, you shouldn't be distributing any of the original animations or frames. You also should not be distributing any of the original sounds / music for the machine. Artwork too - the cab on my F-14 Second Sortie has custom decals that are very clearly a copy of the original Williams ones with some colour changes. Again, for my personal use that's OK, but I won't be distributing the decals themselves or the graphics files (and I have already been asked to).

    http://img-f.pinside.com/201405/1662299/235759.jpg

    Even the name "F-14 Tomcat" is a trademark for Williams when associated with a pinball machine:

    http://trademarks.justia.com/736/54/f-14-tomcat-73654771.html

    So in my case fortunately it won't be a consideration. Lots of websites with sounds that are free to use and redistribute, for example I'll be needing a bunch of missile sounds...

    http://soundbible.com/suggest.php?q=missile&x=0&y=0

    I'll have a DMD with either self-created animations or using work which is free to use, like this for example :

    On a general note I can see both sides to the argument. Sharing a little DMD or sound work in a real niche of a few folks doesn't sound so bad. But if PPS hadn't taken up the gauntlet and become the licensee for Williams we wouldn't be enjoying the parts availability which has been happening over the last few years IMHO. I much prefer the current situation to the old one. YMMV.

    #24 5 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    PPS needs a pinside PR department.

    Why, don't you want to know who you're really dealing with when considering spending a shit ton of money?
    It's good that people can get a small taste of who they're dealing with before giving them there money.

    -1
    #25 5 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    Yes do that ... And hope that no one cares ... As if they do they can subpoena your records as well as put you in a deposition .... So. It won't be so funny after that ... As the costs and the penalties are pretty extreme ... And hopefully some licensee does not want to make an example out of someone ...

    Whether it be for you or anyone else, I'm glad you seek out and police every posting with possible problems for a licensee. I love pinball HOBBY <edited> It keeps the HOBBY, oh so interesting in development of ideas for a HOBBY.

    Post edited by moderator: Please no personal attacks or political slights on Pinside.

    #26 5 years ago

    I am sure Gary Stern would post some bonehead stuff too, but they dont let him.

    #27 5 years ago

    I'm not sure why you guys are jumping down PPS's throat.

    He's probably still rather fresh over hammering out IP issues with his remake, so cut him some slack on this topic.

    Truth is, if you do something that infringes on IP or it's copyright for personal use you'll likely be fine. When you try to sell it (or even distribute it freely), you can get into some hot water.

    If I'm making a re-themed pinball machine, I'd expect to use it for personal use. If I expected to sell it, I'll also understand that there's going to be some money owing to the IP's owner.

    -2
    #28 5 years ago

    Uh-oh, the internet police showed up. You guys better behave !

    #29 5 years ago
    Quoted from StrangelovePhD:

    How were the Matrix guys able to sell a few pins?

    They broke the rules and counted on the fact that Village Roadshow would rather go after the factory in China producing 200,000 bootleg DVDs than some guys making a half dozen pinball machines.

    #31 5 years ago

    This is so completely inappropriate and your continual joking about the loss of a loved one is disgusting!

    This is the 2nd time I have read a similar post from you.

    -1
    #32 5 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    This is so completely inappropriate and your continual joking about the loss of a loved one is disgusting!

    It has nothing to with his loss. His bipolar antics are behind my comments. He's determined to follow me around pinside and derail topics. All he has to do is stop, and I won't respond.

    Back on topic:

    I think there's some good cases for copyright infringements. The pin 2K software or arcade game roms that aren't available anymore are good examples.

    #33 5 years ago
    Quoted from Firebaall:

    I think there's some good cases for copyright infringements. The pin 2K software or arcade game roms that aren't available anymore are good examples.

    Unless they went to trial and we have a ruling to read, these "cases" are worthless. Just one side accusing another. No guidance provided at all. If you want guidance, read the actual opinions in copyright infringement/fair use cases.

    -1
    #34 5 years ago

    Exchange the word "cases", with the word "reasons".

    You're right about those examples not being tried, and held up a shining examples of legal precedent. The premise is the opinion that violating copyright can be a positive avenue....although not a purely legal one.

    Take the P2K software, that I mentioned as an example.

    Nucore developed a replacement software/hardware resource (under license). They stopped producing the product, and another programmer picked up and modified/optimized their work to allow any hardware to be used. Did Pinbox receive legal action? I don't think they did (I could be mistaken). But they did pull down hosted links to their release. Cease and desist order perhaps?

    Would you use Pinbox to get a dead pin2K machine working? I know I would, facing no other options.

    Making a p-roc game that borrowed unlicensed material, then releasing it is a crap shoot. Selling it, instead of releasing it freely as a fan-based mod changes the stakes even more so. If the OP really wants to be truly safe, the only way is to contact the license holder and ask for permission.

    #35 5 years ago
    Quoted from wdpvideo:

    Some peoples ego's are getting to big for pinball.

    Nope it's arrogance.

    1 month later
    #36 5 years ago

    Use B movie titles then it is all good

    Thinking of the Evil dead that is getting passed back around.

    It is a labor of love. I think anyone in pinball for the same reason will not sue you unless you are making money that is rightfully theirs. Personal use 1 of games are not really worth the time and money for large companies to pursue. Could they pursue it anyways..... Of course they have every right to.

    I really do not care for the big brother attitude I think most people are doing as described above.
    Loving pinball and expanding on or making a theme that was never made.

    Just opinions flame suit on

    #37 5 years ago

    What I found most remarkable about The Matrix, in terms of copyrighted material, is that apparently the playfield design (a piece of plywood with holes and cutouts) was not protected/copyrighted. As has happened in the past, it appears anybody can take the playfield design of a game, throw different artwork on it and sell that without any problems.

    #38 5 years ago

    It's just there's not been a game to test it ... I would think they are protected but probably would take a real situation to see ... I guess this will come up if a commercial product is made that uses a pre-existing playfield ... I would imagine stern or gottlieb or WMS might want have an issue ... And whether they would prevail or not .. Imagine a rethemed tspp or acdc ...

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