(Topic ID: 286981)

OXO Issues


By wayinla

33 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 58 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 days ago by SpyroFTW
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

  • OXO Williams, 1973

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There are 58 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 33 days ago

I am attempting to bring an OXO back from the dead and am making progress. This is my first really big dive into em repair so I'm still learning to decipher the schematics. I hope you all can help!

There are several issues but the one currently bothering me is the left O and X the top six roll overs do not register and the same with the left and right roll overs (left and right of middle row in the tic-tac-toe grid). The top O and X do not seem to register anything at all, while the left and right in the middle rollovers do activate the left and right roll over relays but not the corresponding relays on the long relay bank. Sorry if this is confusing!

Switches have been cleaned and gapped. I tried tracing the wires and checking continuity but probably doing it wrong. Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

#2 33 days ago
Quoted from wayinla:

I am attempting to bring an OXO back from the dead and am making progress. This is my first really big dive into em repair so I'm still learning to decipher the schematics. I hope you all can help!
There are several issues but the one currently bothering me is the left O and X the top six roll overs do not register and the same with the left and right roll overs (left and right of middle row in the tic-tac-toe grid). The top O and X do not seem to register anything at all, while the left and right in the middle rollovers do activate the left and right roll over relays but not the corresponding relays on the long relay bank. Sorry if this is confusing!
Switches have been cleaned and gapped. I tried tracing the wires and checking continuity but probably doing it wrong. Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

Look up the relay(s) on the schematic that trip when the ball goes down those lanes... follow to see what the common denominator is... could be a motor switch that is dirty or not making properly disallowing that relay to fire, or perhaps the relay fires but a switch or set of switches on that relay are dirty... I don't have that game/schematic so can't look it up myself... let us know what you find.

#3 33 days ago

Does the middle center target, 2 lower lane switches, or the lower middle rollover trigger the 6, 7, 8, or 9 relays on the long bank of relays?

#4 33 days ago

I believe that for the 6 upper rollover switches, triggering the bank relays is simply controlled by the switch itself.

The middle rows 2 rollover switches and stand up target along with the lower 2 lane switches and rollover button all run through a change relay and then to the 6, 7, 8, and 9 relays.

Given that, I’d triple check your playfield Jones plug.

If none of the 9 are working you need to check the N.O. Advance relay as that would be the only common culprit.

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#5 33 days ago

I had a similar problem with mine and the relay switches for those rollovers were not functioning as intended. Double check on the large bank of relays under the playfield and make sure that when triggered, they open/close like the should. Obviously do this with the power off.

Have you gone through and cleaned all the switch contacts yet? If you havent, make sure you systematically go through and clean them all with a really dull file, super light sand paper, or q-tips and alcohol/naptha. Also clean the jones plugs as suggested. The score reels especially need cleaning so that they work well and reset.

#6 33 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

I believe that for the 6 upper rollover switches, triggering the bank relays is simply controlled by the switch itself.
The middle rows 2 rollover switches and stand up target along with the lower 2 lane switches and rollover button all run through a change relay and then to the 6, 7, 8, and 9 relays.
Given that, I’d triple check your playfield Jones plug.
If none of the 9 are working you need to check the N.O. Advance relay as that would be the only common culprit.
[quoted image]

Thanks for the detailed information. Jones plugs are cleaned and seated solidly, both in the head and bottom cabinet.

Switches for 2, 3, 5, 7 and 9 are working.

If I hit the 4 and 6 switches I hear their relays click but it doesn’t score or light up the tic tac toe board. But after those are hit and I then hit the 7 and 9 switches, the the 4, 7 and 6, 9 light up. Likewise if I hit the 7 switch first and then the 4 switch, the 7 would light and score but not the 4.

I did discover that the Match Unit coil is dead so the unit isn’t stepping up. Would this affect these switches?

#7 33 days ago
Quoted from SpyroFTW:

I had a similar problem with mine and the relay switches for those rollovers were not functioning as intended. Double check on the large bank of relays under the playfield and make sure that when triggered, they open/close like the should. Obviously do this with the power off.
Have you gone through and cleaned all the switch contacts yet? If you havent, make sure you systematically go through and clean them all with a really dull file, super light sand paper, or q-tips and alcohol/naptha. Also clean the jones plugs as suggested. The score reels especially need cleaning so that they work well and reset.

I cleaned all the score reels and stepper units and went through all the switches. Same with the large bank of switches. There’s a lot and could have made some errors.

The trouble I’m having is the problem switches are not firing the corresponding Relay Bank switches.

#8 33 days ago

I think match unit is what controls the X/O toggle on the playfield. Is that alternating between x and o on each 10 point score right now?

#9 33 days ago
Quoted from wayinla:the trouble I’m having is the problem switches are not firing the corresponding Relay Bank switches.

if you run your finger over the top left O rollover, does the 1-O relay on the big bank trip?

#10 33 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

I think match unit is what controls the X/O toggle on the playfield. Is that alternating between x and o on each 10 point score right now?

X and o are not alternating. That was another issue I was going to tackle later!

#11 33 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

if you run your finger over the top left O rollover, does the 1-O relay on the big bank trip?

Neither the top left o or x rollovers trip the big relay bank.

#12 33 days ago

If you manually trip the 1-X or 1-O relay, does it score and light?

#13 33 days ago

Let’s focus on switch 1 first. This is the top rollover for 1-O and 1-X. Ball entering either should score 1k. If no letter occupies the top left board position, the rollover lane the ball passes through is lit.

From your description above, switch 1 does not work. Is this 1-X and 1-O?

The top 6 rollovers all trigger the 1,000 pt relay directly from the switch (see the second line in the schematic). If you aren’t getting 1k when you rollover some of the top switches (1-X and 1-O) but are getting 1k points on 2-X, 2-O, 3-X, and 3-O, then it’s either the switches on the 1 rollovers, a disconnected or broken wire, or a bad Jones plug.

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#14 33 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

Let’s focus on switch 1 first. This is the top rollover for 1-O and 1-X. Ball entering either should score 1k. If no letter occupies the top left board position, the rollover lane the ball passes through is lit.
From your description above, switch 1 does not work. Is this 1-X and 1-O?
The top 6 rollovers all trigger the 1,000 pt relay directly from the switch (see the second line in the schematic). If you aren’t getting 1k when you rollover some of the top switches (1-X and 1-O) but are getting 1k points on 2-X, 2-O, 3-X, and 3-O, then it’s either the switches on the 1 rollovers, a disconnected or broken wire, or a bad Jones plug.
[quoted image]

Yep, great explanation. The circuit is relatively simple... if OP is to keep this game and learn how to work on it, this is a perfect way to start understanding schematics concepts.

#15 33 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

If you manually trip the 1-X or 1-O relay, does it score and light?

Thank you for all the great explanations and diagrams. If I manually trip the 1-x or the 1-o relay it lights but doesn’t score. But after, they do score if the switch is rolled over. So the coil is not being activated for these two switches.

When rolled over, the other four top switches do trip their corresponding relays.

#16 33 days ago

Using the coil resistance chart

https://flippers.com/coil-resistance.html

I checked the resistance of the coils for 1-x and 1-o on the relay bank and they seem to be ok.

#17 33 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

Let’s focus on switch 1 first. This is the top rollover for 1-O and 1-X. Ball entering either should score 1k. If no letter occupies the top left board position, the rollover lane the ball passes through is lit.
From your description above, switch 1 does not work. Is this 1-X and 1-O?
The top 6 rollovers all trigger the 1,000 pt relay directly from the switch (see the second line in the schematic). If you aren’t getting 1k when you rollover some of the top switches (1-X and 1-O) but are getting 1k points on 2-X, 2-O, 3-X, and 3-O, then it’s either the switches on the 1 rollovers, a disconnected or broken wire, or a bad Jones plug.
[quoted image]

Yes, switch 1 is for the 1-o and 1-x.
So the switch should first score 1000 points and then, if unoccupied, light the left corner?

Still trying to wrap my head around this. Appreciate the help!

#18 33 days ago
Quoted from wayinla:

If I manually trip the 1-x or the 1-o relay it lights but doesn’t score.

That is expected behavior. The 1-X relay does not control the scoring aspect.

Quoted from wayinla:

So the switch should first score 1000 points and then, if unoccupied, light the left corner?

The switch will always score 1000 points. Every time the rollover is hit, the 1k relay should be pulsed. Does scoring always happen whEn you trip the rollover?

The relay is only triggered once per ball. If no letter is lit in the top left corner of the tic tac toe board, the letter of the rollover should light in the board (based on the relay tripping).

You’re saying that the 1-X and 1-O relays never trigger on their own, correct?

#19 33 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

Does scoring always happen whEn you trip the rollover?

Yes, for the four working rollovers.

Quoted from steviechs:

You’re saying that the 1-X and 1-O relays never trigger on their own, correct?

Correct.

#20 33 days ago

Unfortunately, I don’t have access to our OXO right now. If I recall correctly, there are two leaf switches on each rollover? One switch scores 1000 points and the other latches the relay and increments the bonus through the advance relay if the square isn’t already lit.
Since you have both sides not working, either both sides have misadjusted switches, or there’s a broken wire that is common to the circuit (yellow). I’d trace those switch wires and see if they’re broken where they join up with the wires on the other rollovers.

The yellow will be common on all 6 switches. The 1000 point relay wire will also be common. The 1-x and 1-o will be separate wires going to the giant relay bank.

This is a really fun game but it is definitely one of the most complex EMs that I have.

Good luck,
Dave

#21 33 days ago

Scoring never happens, or only intermittently on the 1-x and 1-O?

All of the top rollover relays work through essentially the same logic. If some are working to score and to trip the corresponding relay and 1-x and 1-0 are not, then you need to look at the switch under the rollover, the wires at the switch, the common yellow like mentioned in the post above, the Jones plug, or the relay coil.

#22 33 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

Scoring never happens, or only intermittently on the 1-x and 1-O?
All of the top rollover relays work through essentially the same logic. If some are working to score and to trip the corresponding relay and 1-x and 1-0 are not, then you need to look at the switch under the rollover, the wires at the switch, the common yellow like mentioned in the post above, the Jones plug, or the relay coil.

Scoring never happens for the 1-o and 1-x unless I manually trip their relay on the large bank and then roll over their switch.

I will dig around a bit more and see what I can find. Again, your comments are invaluable!

#23 31 days ago

Solved! I used a multimeter with safety pins attached to the leads to search for continuity. Looking at the schematics I knew the BR-Y wire was common to the all the top rollover switches and some worked so it must be the connection common only to the 1-O and 1-X switches. The R-BLU wire was only common wire to the two problem switches and they traced back to the large relay bank (see picture)

Turns out that Make Break contacts on the 1-O and 1-X relay bank needed to be cleaned and gapped better. You think you did it but you never know until you trace the problem.

So using the same logic for the other problem switches I cleaned and gapped those relays and now all the switches seem to be working. I’ll test some more but it is looking promising! I know I need a new coil for the match unit. Thanks for all the help, especially steviechs. I hope I don’t need to but I might post more problems to be solved if I run into a brick wall. Thanks again!!

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#24 29 days ago

That’s great news wayinla!! I’ve gotten some good help from others here and just glad to be able to return the favor a little.

Is that 1-x and 1-o rollover lighting the board now too?

Any luck with your middle rollovers that were struggling?

#25 29 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

That’s great news wayinla!! I’ve gotten some good help from others here and just glad to be able to return the favor a little.
Is that 1-x and 1-o rollover lighting the board now too?
Any luck with your middle rollovers that were struggling?

Thanks for the help. All rollover switches are scoring and lighting the board correctly, for all four players.

The medium chime doesn’t activate but the coil just vibrates slightly. Is that a bad coil?

My next issue is a new coil for the Match Unit (the O and X selection light doesn’t alternate).

Here’s a picture of the project. Might need a little paint touch up on the cabinet!

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#26 29 days ago
Quoted from wayinla:

The medium chime doesn’t activate but the coil just vibrates slightly. Is that a bad coil?

Diagnose by checking its resistance with an ohmmeter and compare with the resistance of your other A-23-600 on the Ball Count Stepup solenoid. To get an accurate meter reading, unsolder one wire from each coil before testing.
You could even swap coils.

#27 29 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Diagnose by checking its resistance with an ohmmeter and compare with the resistance of your other A-23-600 on the Ball Count Stepup solenoid. To get an accurate meter reading, unsolder one wire from each coil before testing.
You could even swap coils.

I checked the resistance of the chime coils (unsoldered wires). I didn’t see them in the coil resistance chart but they were all around 11.7, 11.8 and 11.9, so probably ok?

I also triggered a pop bumper that should chime the medium chime and saw that the chime’s plunger does indeed move but weakly. Maybe I’ll try swapping coils.

#28 29 days ago

Good lord that is a bad paint job. Once you get everything figured out and working correctly, this is a fun game. I wish my backglass was as nice as yours. Did you happen to clean the plunger and sleeve for that coil? Sometimes you need to change out a coil sleeve because they get warped and don’t allow the plunger to move freely.

#29 29 days ago
Quoted from SpyroFTW:

Good lord that is a bad paint job. Once you get everything figured out and working correctly, this is a fun game. I wish my backglass was as nice as yours. Did you happen to clean the plunger and sleeve for that coil? Sometimes you need to change out a coil sleeve because they get warped and don’t allow the plunger to move freely.

The paint job is a head scratcher!
I did clean the sleeves and plunger and all three move freely.

#30 29 days ago

Are the wires to the chime coils soldered on or are they the quick release connection tabs? I think it was my Gottlieb surfer that had the wires connected to the wrong sides of the first coil and as there is a common that ran to all 3 chimes, I was getting very little movement out of the 100s.

If they are soldered on, ignore this as it’s unlikely someone reversed the connections

#31 29 days ago

The other thing to check if the coil seems good is the 100pt relay in the back box. There should be a switch on that relay that controls the chime. Give it a good cleaning and gap

#32 28 days ago

Wires to coil were soldered and they looked old so they were probably from the factory.

I believed it’s the 10 pt. relay that fires the middle chime. The left and right pop bumpers start at 10 pts. and should ring the middle chime but doesn’t. But when it is lit it becomes 100 pts. and it rings the other chime. I’ll try cleaning the 10 pt. relay switches again.

#33 28 days ago

Do the other 10 point features (slingshots) ring the chime?

What happens when you manually hit the 10pt relay in the backbox?

#34 28 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

Do the other 10 point features (slingshots) ring the chime?
What happens when you manually hit the 10pt relay in the backbox?

None of the 10 pt. switches ring the chime. Manually hitting the 10 pt. relay doesn’t ring the chime.

Update: after tapping some 10 pt. switches for testing, the 15 amp fuse blew. Probably a short somewhere? Could that short be robbing power to the chime coil? In the meantime I need to buy some 15 amp fuses.

#35 28 days ago

The 10 pt relay is the only control of the chime coil (see schematic). The switch that controls the chime should be an orange wire.

You can test that single switch with an alligator clip on each switch blade and then touch the other ends of the clips together.

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#36 28 days ago
Quoted from wayinla:

Update: after tapping some 10 pt. switches for testing, the 15 amp fuse blew. Probably a short somewhere? Could that short be robbing power to the chime coil? In the meantime I need to buy some 15 amp fuses.

I can’t imagine that hitting the 10 pt would blow the 15amp fuse unless you were poking with something metal and shorted it

#37 28 days ago
Quoted from steviechs:

I can’t imagine that hitting the 10 pt would blow the 15amp fuse unless you were poking with something metal and shorted it

Just used my finger to hit each switch.

#38 28 days ago

I disconnected the playfield and pressed the 10 pt. relay and the medium chime does ring. It doesn’t with the playfield connected and the each time the relay fires the GI lights brighten.

#39 27 days ago

The 10pt relay will also advance the match unit when the center target and the bottom rollover are both closed. When the match unit pulses, the No. change rely also gets pulsed. That No 2 relay controls the the X and O toggle on the playfield and lights the according light.

Maybe check there. Might also be partially related to your burnt up match unit coil?!? Maybe advance the match unit manually one step to see if the opposite light lights up and if hitting the 10pt still ramps up the brightness of the playfield lights.

#40 26 days ago

Thanks. I think I’m going to worry about the chime after I replace the match unit coil.

So while trying cleaning some switches another issue has come up which is even worse than the chime problem. The machine adds games when starting a game and draining a ball. I noticed that the 25cent relay is always energized. Is that how it’s supposed to be?

#41 26 days ago

There might be a coin switch closed keeping the relay energized.

#42 25 days ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

There might be a coin switch closed keeping the relay energized.

So the 25 cent relay should not be constantly energized, correct?

#43 25 days ago

Correct
Post a pic of the coin door switches if possible.

#44 23 days ago

So I fixed the issue of the 25 cent relay being constant energized. It appears that the coin unit had a short between two wires near the solder joint. That also fixed the issue of the pin adding games when starting a game and draining a ball.

So now back to the medium chime not sounding. I disconnected the chime unit and measure each of the coils’ resistance and all three were 11.7. But when connected to the pin the medium chime was 0.5 while the others were still 11.7. Does that mean there’s a short somewhere?

#45 23 days ago

You tried swapping the coils right?

#46 23 days ago

The Medium chime is wired in parallel with the No. Match solenoid through 2 normally closed switches. Is your No Match solenoid fried?

pasted_image (resized).png
#47 23 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

The Medium chime is wired in parallel with the No. Match solenoid through 2 normally closed switches. Is your No Match solenoid fried?
[quoted image]

I just saw that on the schematic. Yes, the No. Match coil is toast. I am ordering a new coil and will see if that fixes the chime issue.

Quoted from SpyroFTW:

You tried swapping the coils right?

I was going to but the problems with the pin adding more games came up and I got side tracked. Then when that was resolved I forgot to switch the coils. But I do need to replace the No. Match coil.

#48 22 days ago

If that doesnt fix it, the chime coil might be dead. It should still show the same resistance value as the others when not under a load. If you unsolder the coils and you still get a different resistance value, then that coil has a problem. Hopefully its just the match coil. Its a fun game once you get it all fixed. I would repaint the cab though.

#49 22 days ago
Quoted from SpyroFTW:

If that doesnt fix it, the chime coil might be dead. It should still show the same resistance value as the others when not under a load. If you unsolder the coils and you still get a different resistance value, then that coil has a problem. Hopefully its just the match coil. Its a fun game once you get it all fixed. I would repaint the cab though.

Thanks. I’m hoping replacing the No. Match Unit coil will fix it. I do plan on repainting the cabinet. What an eye sore!

#50 22 days ago

I found this picture from an older post https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/oxo-change-relay-issue.

With a new coil for my Match Unit fixing (fingers crossed) the chime issue I hope not too many new problems come to the surface!

I think my biggest challenge is improving my understanding and the flow of the schematics.

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