(Topic ID: 249422)

Outhole triggers tilt

By Gaming4Potatoes

1 year ago

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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Gaming4Potatoes
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#1 1 year ago

My Williams Alpine Club will send current to the tilt relay lever when a ball enters the trough to be kicked out the outhole. The schematic doesn't even connect these two together, and all the connections related to those two areas were checked. I even consulted many EM repair guides and none cover this. You all are my last hope on this one

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from Gaming4Potatoes:

My Williams Alpine Club will send current to the tilt relay lever

What do you mean by 'tilt relay lever'? And do you have a high quality schematic scan you can post?

#3 1 year ago

Make sure all tilt switches are not touching. Might sound silly, but you never know

#4 1 year ago

currieddog The tilt relay lever is the lever that turns on and off the tilt features for the game (Like when a tilt switch is connected, the lever falls, putting the machine in 'tilt'). It's located in the reset bank. As for a HQ schematic, the paper is as old as the pinball machine, but I could try to get a good picture of it

#5 1 year ago

Hi Gaming4Potatoes
in the early days Williams pins did not have an Game-Over-RELAY (to actuate when we reach Game-Over) --- the stuff was handled with "TILT-RELAY and the position of the Ball-Count-Unit" - see the JPG. The camera of an mobile phone is good enough - they usually make JPG-pictures --- please show the areas of Alpine Club schematics "section lights, Tilt-Relay or Game-Over-Relay --- actuating the TILT-Relay. Greetings Rolf

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#6 1 year ago

I'm sorry, my terminology was a little wrong. Instead of tilt relay lever it was tilt relay switch located in the relay bank. The relay bank reset arm pops up to reset the 5 relays: tilt, game, game over, 300 pt, and 500 pt. whenever a ball falls into the outhole, the outhole kicker also energizes the tilt as if the game was tilting. It may not even be related to the outhole, but the problem happens at the same time as the outhole kicker solenoid firing. At this point it's useful as the switches are bent just right so the tilt relay pushes down the bank reset arm (tilt doesn't trigger) as this allows for game over, and 300-500pt advancements in scoring. After the bank reset arm falls though, tilt doesn't activate because the bank reset arm fell which disconnected the tilt switch.

Anyway I included a tilt relay snapshot and an outhole relay snapshot

rolf_martin_062 surely Alpine Club has a game-over relay. Both my schematics and my game have it. I've had issues with the game-over relay not being strong enough to push down the bank reset arm

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#7 1 year ago

Hi Gaming4Potatoes
thanks for the parts of the schematics. I do not fully understand Your explanation in post-6 (I am Swiss-German speaking) --- could You find the fault and fix it - then please mark the topic as solved --- If You still have the problem / fault: Please write again, please explain some more to Your (post-6) "At this point it's useful ..." . what is the Tilt-Relay doing with the Bank-Reset-Arm ?

I show the Relay-Bank in my Shangri La --- hanging down on the underneath side of the playfield --- does You Relay Bank looks similar ? Greetings Rolf

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#8 1 year ago

rolf_martin_062 the relay bank looks exactly like that one, but with less relays on it. I edited your image and made a visual of what is happening below.

Quoted from Gaming4Potatoes:

At this point it's useful as the switches are bent just right so the tilt relay pushes down the bank reset arm (tilt doesn't trigger) as this allows for game over, and 300-500pt advancements in scoring.

Let me clarify...The bank reset arm stays up at game start instead of falling down right after.

So the tilt relay is strong enough to push the reset bar down, but not strong enough to open or close switches on the tilt relay the first time, so after the first time tilt is triggered from the outhole switch, it results in exactly how the reset bank below looks. After that, the tilt relay sags a little so another tilt can't be registered.

Hopefully I was more clear this post...this is my first restoration of a pinball machine

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#9 1 year ago

Hi Gaming4Potatoes
thanks for post-8. Before really digging into the schematics I would like to ask some questions:
- Did You buy the pin with the fault ? Or did You have a fully running Alpine Club and the fault showed up ? Showed up all of a sudden, permanent ? Or showing up sometimes - then more and more often - then permanent ?
- Did You do some work on the pin and then the fault showed up ? Did You adjust the gapping on switches ? (switches on relays - Tilt-Switches ?)
- Did You adjust the leg-levellers to make the playfield less steep ? See here http://www.stevechannel.com/tiltmechanism.htm , last picture, the ball rests on the left --- the ball is not allowed to roll to the right (and so closing the Ball-Roll-Tilt-Switch***). (((Also - on the 2nd last and 3rd last pictures we see weighted Tilt-Switches)))

Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) --- can You (temporarily) put a rubber band to help pulling - to the spring on the Relay-Bank so when You manually actuate the Reset-Arm on the Bank: Mechanically the stuff works (beeing pulled back all the way) ?

A little bit of temporary cheating: See in Your pin on the Coil on Tilt-Relay - from one side (solderlug) on the coil runs a short wire to a switch*** mounted on the Tilt-Relay - see it ? A little bit of cheating: Sneak-in a stripe of paper into this switch*** making the two blades always separated. Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- Can You play now ? (((The sneaked-in stripe of paper hinders the Tilt-Relay "to actuate". Of course the stripe of paper shall only be in the switch*** for a while --- but with it: You can play.)))

Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord - take the stripe of paper out - so the fault can happen again - manually reset the Relay-Bank, plug-in - now watch the Tilt-Relay as You toggle-on (maybe by pressing the left flipper button) - does the Tilt-Relay actuate ? (From Your schematics I say: It must***) Start a new game --- at what time the Tilt-Relay faulty actuates ? Does it faulty actuate when the Reset-Relay changes from "pulling is resetting stuff in the pin" to non-pulling ?

See the JPG - "Ball-Roll-Tilt-Switch*** is my blue number 7", "this switch*** is my blue number 1", "it must*** is caused by my blue 5", "my blue 2": At the end of start-up, resetting: The Reset-Relay let go means my blue 2 moves into state "as drawn in the schematics" - now through "blue 2, 3, 4" and then along "my light-blue lines": The fault may show up. Greetings Rolf

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#10 1 year ago

rolf_martin_062 so after trying everything you had suggested, I thought maybe it wasn't the outhole, but on the score motor, then I saw your #6 (C 4A) above on the schematics and sure enough, the picture below states my issue. The ball release and tilt relay trip are on the same score motor switch set. Now I'm even more confused as to why this is happening because the schematics say it is supposed to happen. Maybe this is leading to the match circuit, but maybe you could help me figure this out more?

Also I realized when I was at my computer to show you all the schematics I left out a segment, so that is below too.

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#11 1 year ago

Hi Gaming4Potatoes
when making the JPG shown in post-9 I did not know about connection downwards (whats going on on "Ball Release" ?). Here I show with added part downwards - thanks for more parts of the schematics. See "encircled blue 'threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on Game-Over-Relay', my blue-4" --- when the middle blade faulty has contact leftbound in the JPG, faulty connecting to blade-wire-83-1: As the Reset-Relay quits pulling at the end of resetting (switch blue-2 moves back to as shown in the schematics) - connection is made - along "marked-red lines" and the turning motor closing the motor-switch-4A: Tilt-Relay faulty is activated. Please check "encircled blue 'threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on Game-Over-Relay', my blue-4". Greetings Rolf

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#12 1 year ago

rolf_martin_062 that was the issue! My game doesn't tilt by the score motor anymore! Thanks for you help!

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