(Topic ID: 211590)

Outhole sequence issue 1974 williams

By TripAct93

3 years ago

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  • 11 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by currieddog
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders


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Triple Action Bonus relay (resized).jpg

#1 3 years ago

Okay guys looking for opinions. I've got a williams triple action from 1974. When the ball drains ball unit counts down twice also bonus counts to zero and back up to 1 a second time ball ejector fires a second time. Its like the whole outhole sequence Happens twice on a ball drain and also is happening at start up.

If i have the ball out of the game or sitting in the shooter lane and start the game the ball count acts normal i dont lose a ball on start up like i do when the ball is in there. If i "TAP" the outhole switch outhole sequence fires like normal one ball is lost.

Seems the outhole switch is staying conected to long and triggering a second outhole sequence right as the ball is being kicked.

My question is this: is my problem with the outhole switch itself. Or is it a timing issue where the motor switch that pulses the ball eject needs to be adjusted to kick the ball sooner/quicker so the outhole switch disconects before the outhole sequence ends?

#2 3 years ago

There is a whole interesting sequence at 11-12 on the schematic, involving the Bonus, Outhole, and Ball Index relays. Check that thru, as well as score motor sw. Index-E and 3B.

Schematic available here, if you don't have it: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2648/Williams_1974_Triple_Action_Schematic_Diagram_continuous.pdf

#3 3 years ago

Let's try to break this down into smaller pieces. The schematic shows that the Outhole switch fires the Bonus relay, and then the Bonus relay holds itself on (through the Bonus relay switch) until a switch on the Advance Unit opens when the Advance unit reaches the zero position.

Triple Action Bonus relay (resized).jpg

It sounds like the Outhole switch is always doing something so the Bonus relay is probably firing. Does the Bonus relay release once the Advance Unit reaches zero? If not look for the switch that should open once it reaches the zero position, between the grey-green wire and the yellow wire.


#4 3 years ago

That is corect the bonus relay pulls when outhole is triggered and releases when advance hits zero. Then somehow right as advance hits zero and the bonus is released its getting pulled again causeing outhole and ball index to fire.

#5 3 years ago

Also when the game starts the bonus relay is triggered when the advance unit hits zero. Causeing me to lose a ball at the start of the game.

#6 3 years ago

Idk if this helps or makes thing more confusing but before this problem i had a problem where the outhole triggered and worked normal but diddnt step down the ball. I figured out that the ball index relay wassnt energizing with the outhole relay. And thats why the ball count wouldnt change. (During this point the outhole diddnt do this double loop.) now the only thing i could find that would energize the ball index relay during this process was if a switch on the game over relay was closed. The problem being the game was designed so this switch is only closed if game over relay is triped. Now i cant find anything that shows the game over relay should be triping during this process. After getting advice from someone i was instructed to rig this switch so it would be closed while game over relay was latched. (Once again i was insure because acording to the manual this is against the relays design) so now when bonus relay is triggered by the outhole switch the outhole relay pulls and the ball index pulls but im also getting the double outhole loop. So is the path to energize the ball index through the game over and outhole relays not the proper path? Is there another way the ball index should get energized during this sequence?

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from TripAct93:

i was instructed to rig this switch so it would be closed while game over relay was latched

Step one is to remove any non-factory modifications.

#8 3 years ago

I've allready done that. Now i'm back to the outhole sequence only hapening once per drain, but the ball count doesn not step down due to the ball index relay not being pulled

#9 3 years ago

Check score motor 3B and the make/break on the Outhole relay for your Ball Index problem.

#10 3 years ago

Okay this is hard to admit but i dont want to abandon this topic i started unresolved.

Let me start by thanking anyone who tried to help me with this. If it wassnt for people like you this machine would still be the 250lb paper weight it was when i bought it.

So before this issue cropped up i had been having issues with reset. After some good advice from someone on a different forum i fixed the reset issue and played 2-3 full games with no issues. Then i decided to change adjustment from adding replays to add a ball. It was late and i was ready for bed but i wanted to test add a ball to make sure it was working. Wanting to make as little noise as possible (kids were sleeping, it was late) instead of playing the game to test it i knocked the appropriate targets down by hand (had the glass off) and racked up a few extra balls. I was then satified that the machine was in working order and wanted to get it to game over so i could unplug it and go to bed. Once again wanting to make as little noise as possible i picked up the ball from the shooter lane and droped it down the drain. Outhole triggered but ball count diddnt change. (Houston, we have a problem.....or so i thought.) At the time not fully understanding the schematic i thought the ball index relay was energized by the outhole relay when outhole is triggered. This is not the case the ball index is energized and held the first time 100pts is scored which during normal gameplay is pretty much at the start of every game.....unless your an idoit like me and start the game and then pick up the ball and drop it straight down the drain in which case the ball index wouldnt be energized and ball count wouldnt step down.

In short the answer to my problem is there is no problem i've just been having a 48hr long blonde moment.

#11 3 years ago

A learning experience, so a positive. Please check as "resolved."

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