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(Topic ID: 146570)

Outhole kicker won't fire - out of ideas


By ForceFlow

4 years ago



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  • 36 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by ForceFlow
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#1 4 years ago

I'm working on an Allied Leisure dynomite. It's been somewhat of a challenging machine.

Somewhat in EM fashion, coils fire when a relay is engaged. The relays engage when triggered by the relay PCB.

In this particular case, the kickout coil doesn't seem to fire. This is the only problem in the game, as far as I can tell--everything else in the game appears to operate correctly. I've been trying to figure this issue out off and on for a few weeks. I think I need a fresh pair of eyes.

  • The coil gets the proper voltage.
  • The coil gives the correct resistance rating.
  • The ball reset relay is triggered at the expected times, however, the coil doesn't actually fire.
  • The plunger can slide unhindered through the coil.
  • Holding the plunger half-way into the coil doesn't cause the coil to "grab" it.
  • The wires are attached to the correct lugs on the coil (another owner supplied photos for comparison).
  • Removing relays from their sockets and swapping them around has no effect. All relays appear to be in working order.
  • The connectors have been re-pinned (which resolved most issues except for this one)
  • Grounding the coil (or any coil) to earth ground does not cause a coil to fire. The circuit for the coils appears to be a loop through the 24v bridge rectifier, but I'm hesitant to ground a coil through it anything since the schematics don't seem to match up 100%.
  • The wiring schematics are a bit difficult to follow, making it challenging to trace signal paths.

If you have any ideas or could steer me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. Photos and schematics below. I can easily provide more if they would be helpful.

ali_-_cabinet.jpg
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#3 4 years ago

If you're getting proper voltage and have the correct ohm rating current should flow and that sucker should fire. Is it possible somebody reversed the leads which in a DC circuit should produce an opposite magnetic field in the coil maybe it's pulling the plunger instead of pushing it, just a thought.

#4 4 years ago

You could always put an old compass next to it when its suppose to fire to see if a magnetic field is even generating.

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

If you're getting proper voltage and have the correct ohm rating current should flow and that sucker should fire. Is it possible somebody reversed the leads which in a DC circuit should produce an opposite magnetic field in the coil maybe it's pulling the plunger instead of pushing it, just a thought.

I tried holding the plunger half way into the coil to see if it would move one way or the other, but it didn't even twitch.

I also verified that the wiring on the lugs was correct with a photo from another owner.

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

You could always put an old compass next to it when its suppose to fire to see if a magnetic field is even generating.

Good idea...I don't think I have a compass, though

#7 4 years ago

Ok stupid question but have you swaped coils within the game just to rule out the coil even though it tested ok? Other coils fire as they should right?

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Good idea...I don't think I have a compass, though

Maybe on your phone? Lol

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

Ok stupid question but have you swaped coils within the game just to rule out the coil even though it tested ok? Other coils fire as they should right?

I already replaced the original coil. All the other coils fire as they should.

#10 4 years ago

Ok. Try pushing in ball reset relay manually for a couple seconds to see if coil fires, maybe the "predriver" relay closure is too breif, timing issue?

#11 4 years ago

Or hell, jump the 30v right to it for few seconds

#12 4 years ago

The only other thing i can think of is maybe the coil rating is wrong somehow, if you jump around the reset relay contacts its a straight shot from the bridge rectifier to the coil and back to the rectifier. And if other coils are working we know your fuse is good and the bridge is good as it feeds others, have you taken if completely out of the coil bracket? And yes its stupid but make sure that plunger is magnetic still with another magnet if you dont have a compass to test for a field.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

The only other thing i can think of is maybe the coil rating is wrong somehow, if you jump around the reset relay contacts its a straight shot from the bridge rectifier to the coil and back to the rectifier. And if other coils are working we know your fuse is good and the bridge is good as it feeds others, have you taken if completely out of the coil bracket? And yes its stupid but make sure that plunger is magnetic still with another magnet if you dont have a compass to test for a field.

The coil is correct according to the parts manual. The resistance value is printed on the coil's label (which is a good idea, IMHO--not sure why more modern manufacturers don't do that).

A magnet sticks to the plunger with no trouble.

Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

Or hell, jump the 30v right to it for few seconds

I'm not 100% sure which lug is which on the bridge rectifier. The wiring and colors don't quite match up. This isn't the only difference between the schematics and production machine. There were a handful of changes made after the fact.

Although, would connecting each lead on the coil to each terminal on the 8700uF capacitor accomplish the same thing?

Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

Ok. Try pushing in ball reset relay manually for a couple seconds to see if coil fires, maybe the "predriver" relay closure is too breif, timing issue?

Worth a shot...I may give that a try.

#14 4 years ago

heres a thought, aligator lead jump over to another coil of the same rating and see if the "pulse" ment for the kickout coil fires another coil.

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I'm not 100% sure which lug is which on the bridge rectifier. The wiring and colors don't quite match up. This isn't the only difference between the schematics and production machine

Use a meter and find out which is which. Then jump it to make sure its not the coil.

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

heres a thought, aligator lead jump over to another coil of the same rating and see if the "pulse" ment for the kickout coil fires another coil.

Good suggestion--I jumpered the kickout coil to another coil and the kickout coil fired simultaneously with the other coil.

So, that at least tells me that the coil itself is good.

#17 4 years ago

I bet the connection on the coil itself is intermittent, or follow the "ground" back all the way and check those connections to the bridge. Ive put a clip from a meter on coils and they start working because of a loose connection, i know you just changed it but you never know

#18 4 years ago

This wiring has been really tough to trace. On the diagram it looks simple enough, but the actual wiring is fairly complex. The schematics only show about half of where the pins actually go.

So, I traced the wire from the coil down to the relay socket.

The socket is set up in an odd way. Pins 9, 10, and 11 are jumpered together and not connected to anything else. Pins 6 & 7 are jumpered together, and connect to the coil.

Pin 8 is a bit of a mystery. Multimeter tests reveal that it connects to the male side of the J2 connector, but it connects to multiiple pins (J2-7 and J2-9). Those pins somehow connect to both positive and negative sides of the filter caps, and what I'm assuming are the 24v and 6v grounds on the bridge rectifiers.

#19 4 years ago

As it turned out, pin 8 on the ball reset relay fed into one of the pins in the game relay socket.

So, both the game relay and ball reset relay have to be engaged simultaneously in order for there to be a good ground connection between the coil and the ground lug on the bridge rectifier.

1) The coil is good and fires when the ground wire is jumpered to another coil's ground wire.
2) The signal path for the coil's grounding wire is good when I manually engage the relays during a continuity test with a multimeter.

However--the kickout coil still does not fire when it is supposed to. Possibly a timing issue of some sort? Maybe the two relays aren't engaged simultaneously or for a long enough period of time to fire the coil?

#20 4 years ago

The game relay stays engaged the whole time until the game is over. So...it doesn't seem to be a timing issue between the two relays.

Separately, everything seems to test good--the wiring, the coil, and manually engaging the relays (to test continuity).

However, when I try to start a game, the coil still just does not want to fire. Any other ideas?

#21 4 years ago

I held in the ball reset relay coil for a few seconds just to see if the momentary activation of the relay wasn't enough to fire the coil.

However, all it did was blow the 24VDC fuse. I'm not sure if that's actually a clue or not.

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#22 4 years ago

I noticed that the pins on the black J15 connector in the cabinet don't match up. I'm not sure if that's an error, or if it's intentional since many of these pins have two wires per pin. Can anyone confirm?

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#23 4 years ago

Looks like you may have found the issue. Make sure the wire colors match coming and going at that connector.

Steve

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

Looks like you may have found the issue. Make sure the wire colors match coming and going at that connector.
Steve

Well, it looks like I fixed a problem that I wasn't aware of yet. The coils for the lane gates weren't energizing during the playfield reset sequence, but since I moved one of the mismatched connector pins, now they are.

However, the kickout coil still isn't firing

#25 4 years ago

Hm, I'm thinking that you may need to check more of those connector wires for other miss-wired connections. I had that same thing happen to me when I tried swapping a better playfield into a nicer cabinet to make a cleaner game. One of the sockets was wired differently and it drove me nuts trying to figure out why the game wouldn't work right (perhaps this happened to your game too?). After all, the factory would never wire a socket connection different from game to game ..... right?

Steve

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Well, it looks like I fixed a problem that I wasn't aware of yet. The coils for the lane gates weren't energizing during the playfield reset sequence, but since I moved one of the mismatched connector pins, now they are.
However, the kickout coil still isn't firing

#26 4 years ago

I looked over the wires, and the colors seemed to match up.

The wire for the ball reset coil is hard to miss on that connector--it's bright red.

And like I said earlier, I get continuity from the grounding wire to the ground bridge lug when I manually close the game & ball relays, so I'm at a loss here.

#27 4 years ago

I've been trying to map out the exact signal path of the coil. It passes through several relays. This has not been an easy task to unravel, and there's still a number of question marks.

For instance, on the ball reset relay at pin 7, it goes to J4-6, but after that I'm not sure. It doesn't appear to be noted on the schematics.

Also, on the tilt relay, pin 2 & 3 are connected, and seems like it might to go to 30VDC on the schematics, but I can't seem to find actual continuity for it anywhere.

I'll probably have to scrap and redraw my original scribblings. I wasn't expecting the signal path to get so complicated.

[Edit]: Redrawing everything with the relays in the same position as in the game made things a bit easier to understand (though there are still a few question marks I'll have to suss out tomorrow.)

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#28 4 years ago

I took some voltage readings, but they're not making any sense. I can't seem to be able to tell which are supposed to be supplying power and which are supposed to be ground for the circuit. Note that with the multimeter, I was connecting the black lead to earth ground, and probing with the red lead.

20151223242302453.jpg

I'm really rather stumped here.

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

Is it possible somebody reversed the leads which in a DC circuit should produce an opposite magnetic field in the coil maybe it's pulling the plunger instead of pushing it, just a thought.

That's not a thing. I had a misconception about that too, but coils can only pull, they can't push.

Think about the fact that coils can use AC power.

#30 4 years ago
Quoted from mot:

That's not a thing. I had a misconception about that too, but coils can only pull, they can't push.
Think about the fact that coils can use AC power.

Right i looked that up later, coils can and do all the time push or pull depending on design, but in this thing we call pinball it magnetizes the plunger stop in the coil assembly so polarity doesnt matter at that point.

1 week later
#31 4 years ago

So, an update on this issue. Not a whole lot of headway, though.

Rverything in the game appears to functioning, aside from the kickout coil and some flaky lamp sockets.

When the game coins up, and the start button is pressed, the game relay energizes, the playfield goes through the reset cycle, and the ball reset relay energizes momentarily (with the expectation of firing the coil).

Instead the coil does not fire, and the reset cycle continues repeatedly until I remove the ball from the outhole.

1) The coil and diode are good. If I jumper the coil to another coil (the 30VDC side with the single wire), I can get it to fire along with the other coil.

2) I've tried swapping the relays around. A working relay from another socket makes no difference. The relay from the ball reset socket works without trouble elsewhere.

3) From what I can tell, continuity is consistent with the schematics. I even drew up a visual layout of the relay sockets and were the wires went.

487214[1]_(resized).jpg

4) There appears to be continuity between the relay socket's pins and corresponding points within the relay.

5) On the underside of the ball reset relay's socket, if I jump either pins 5&9 or pins 6&10, the kickout coil fires and holds as soon as the game relay energizes.
20160103234003058_(resized).jpg

6) On the underside of reset relay socket, jumpering pins 5&6 has no effect. Neither does jumpering 9&10 or 10&11.

In the ball reset relay's socket, I removed each pin and squeezed the leafs of the pins closer together in order to make sure they held tighter to the relay.

Example of a pin: znYQHL2[1]_(resized).jpg

9) Removing the relay from the socket, jamming jumper wires in the socket of each pin, then using alligator clips to connect to the relay's pins does not produce a change.

2hBYGfL[1]_(resized).jpg

10) I gave all the pins in the relay socket an extra squeeze with crimpers to make sure that they were all making contact with the wires they were crimped to. There was no change.

So--jumpering the ball reset relay socket pins 5&9 or 6&10 tells me the circuit can be completed, but something seems to be preventing it from doing so without the jumper.

2 months later
#32 4 years ago

Just as a follow-up on this issue, which appears to have been resolved as of a few weeks ago.

I was able to confirm that there was a jumper wire going from game reset relay socket pin 7 to J4-6, which goes to the negative DC side to the 24v bridge rectifier.

Disconnecting that wire from the circuit seemed to reveal no ill-effects. The game played, everything scored as expected, all the relays and solenoids fired as expected.

The jumper wire appeared to be factory-installed. I'm not sure why it was there, especially since it doesn't match the schematics.

#33 4 years ago

Scratching any and all Allied Leisure games off my wish list.

Glad you found it. I have a stray wire on my Firepower that has me wondering. What if I disconnect it? What if it's a hack job, and who knows what won't work anymore?

Completely understand your frustration. I would have given u on post 2.

#34 4 years ago
Quoted from Keetur:

Scratching any and all Allied Leisure games off my wish list.
Glad you found it. I have a stray wire on my Firepower that has me wondering. What if I disconnect it? What if it's a hack job, and who knows what won't work anymore?
Completely understand your frustration. I would have given u on post 2.

I was very determined to fix it. There aren't too many examples of these games floating around. I always do what I can to bring dead games back to life.

If it wasn't for that one issue, it probably would not have taken too much longer to repair and shop than any other early solid state game.

At this point, I've finished shopping the underside of the playfield, and just started on the top side. Just waiting on some parts for the flipper assemblies (I found out that gen2 flippers aren't a direct replacement for gen1 flippers, so I had to order gen2 bushings to accommodate them--hopefully that should work. If not, I may have to use a Gottlieb System 1/80 flipper assembly instead. I've seen someone else go that route).

After that, it's onto the coin door, chime assembly, and then I'll be pretty much all done.

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#35 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I was very determined to fix it. There aren't too many examples of these games floating around. I always do what I can to bring dead games back to life.
If it wasn't for that one issue, it probably would not have taken too much longer to repair and shop than any other early solid state game.
At this point, I've finished shopping the underside of the playfield, and just started on the top side. Just waiting on some parts for the flipper assemblies (I found out that gen2 flippers aren't a direct replacement for gen1 flippers, so I had to order gen2 bushings to accommodate them--hopefully that should work. If not, I may have to use a Gottlieb System 1/80 flipper assembly instead. I've seen someone else go that route).
After that, it's onto the coin door, chime assembly, and then I'll be pretty much all done.

I really want a pre-SS game, but all those switches and the logic scare me. How hard are they really? I consider myself intermediate to advanced "beginner" in the SS realm, (still working on understanding schematics and logic). I certainly understand leaf switches, but that is about it......

#36 4 years ago
Quoted from Keetur:

I really want a pre-SS game, but all those switches and the logic scare me. How hard are they really? I consider myself intermediate to advanced "beginner" in the SS realm, (still working on understanding schematics and logic). I certainly understand leaf switches, but that is about it......

On one hand, they're simpler than later games. On the other hand, since they're a bit obscure, you're pretty much on your own when it comes to troubleshooting. However, for Allied Leisure, there is a very good theory of operation guide for all the boards. Additionally, pretty much everything is 7400-series chip logic (on generation 1 games) so all the board components are easily obtainable.

I would recommend that if you are not proficient with repairing *at least* one other early solid state system (Bally -17/-35, Stern M100/M200, Gottlieb System 1, Williams System 3-6), that you might want to hold off. It's better for a beginner to work with a system that has plenty of documentation, resources, and spare parts available.

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