Original. <close thread>

What he said original all the way

I'll take a nice new remake over a twenty year old game any day. If I already have the original I'd stick with it though.

What he said, remake all the way.

This is an interesting question that honestly requires a crystal ball to predict. The boards in the remakes are obviously newer, but when they break no matter how much you shout "hey, you are only 3 years old, you should not have broken!" it won't make them start working again. What is going against the remakes is that the boards aren't quite as repairable as the old ones (although I know MMR and AFMR both have thru-hole mounts on the transistors at least). In the end it will depend on how many remakes are made as that will determine the future market for parts availability.

Case in point, they made about 3000 of the original MM games. And there are lots of part available for it. In fairness Chicago Gaming is probably closing in on that number as far as remakes. But what helps the original is all the other titles made during that era that share the same boards and components. So today someone can make or stock WPC driver boards and sell them to the owner of all the games from that generation. Hopefully at least the boards going into the remakes will interchange with each title as that will help, if they are all game specific I would be fearful of keeping one running long term. But that is me, ymmv of course.

Would you want a reliable new car with updated features or a used car with 100,000 on the odometer?

That depends, does the new car have node boards?

Good thing about owning a few wpc95 pins is you can troubleshoot things pretty easy if something has a issue. You can get a nice restored mm with lots of mods for around the same as a nib shipped. Id say go for a original if u are able to work on them .

I have a 66 year old pickup truck that is still running with the original power train. Not because it is better than a 2017 truck, it's just simpler. In a hundred years it's possible it may still be around and running, I doubt there will be many 66 year old 2017 pickups on the road. Stuff today is throwaway, it is not meant to last.

I'm not speaking to your fine remake pinball machine, but you did start the cargument...

Sounds like you're trying to talk yourself out of a remake....

I got to look at afmr at pinburgh (thanks Joe) and it plays fine. A couple things stood out to me though. The amber inserts seemed very translucent and coupled with the bright leds were nearly blinding. I have restored two afm's with mirco playfield swapped in and leds at those inserts. I don't recal them being as harsh as the afmr. It may just be my memory but afmr was distracting at those inserts. The blue inserts were hard to read between the flippers. Those leds were too dim. The plate at the back for the cord wasn't like the bubbled one on wpc games. It was just a flat plate. The jiggling of the martians was nearly nonexistent. I'm not sure if there's a setting in the menu to turn up but it was underwhelming on the one at pinburgh. The other was the cabinet head construction. The sides were just butt jointed versus a lock mitre joint. That seems cheap to me. I didn't get strobe multiball to have an opinion on that. I wish I would have been able to. Other than that, the screen was cool and the animations cooler. Plays like afm.

No, they're not Stern games. They're Chicago Gaming Company. They run on a Beaglebone Black & big boards under the playfield. I've had mine since May 2015 with zero major issues.

IMO the electronics have proven themselves reliable. Ask yourself this. Do you want what the remake offers?

1. NEW. Games from the 90's, but new!
2. Higher rez color dots. You can't get CGC's new dot-work on a ColorDMD for an original. It's proprietary and looks awesome.
3. Shaker integration. Games come with coded shakers. Original doesn't have that.

There are a few more bits exclusive to the remake which could be pros/cons depending on your perspective - but those 3 are the main pros for the remake.

Your statement about having parts available may not hold up in the future, as many IC chips and transisters that are thru hole parts are quickly becoming obsolete. Not to mention finding a working sound board replacement. Sure, you could replace it with a pinsound board, but could you repair it 20 years down the road?

No.

LTG : )

I owned a collector quality, low play, original MM and sold it to pay bills. I was distraught at the though of very likely never being able to purchase another one. Soon after, MMR was announced and given the cost was able to purchase one. I am now a complete convert. My MMR plays equally as well if not better than my original machine. I do plan to pick up an extra board set at some point in the future (not sure if they are available yet). I look at it this way, even if I spend $1K on two extra board sets, it's still significantly less expensive than a 20 year old machine. I vote for new all the way and by the time an issue arises, Stern and Chicago Gaming will have other titles to keep us all engaged. Lastly, the more we all purchase the new remakes, we increase the probability that parts will always be available. I anticipate some really great titles to come from Chicago G. in the future. I'm hopeful that they reproduce AF, another game I had to sell due to an evil ex. Best!

This is the first I have heard of these 2 issues, can anyone with a production AFMr confirm this?

I'd like to see one of those restored original MM pins you think are available for around the same price as a new one shipped. I have never seen it and I have refurbished several pins, a dogged out original MM brings at least 6k, then you start the restoration and I'd bet you have another $4k in it with cab restoration or a new cab, playfield restoration or a new one, then add in all the replacement parts like coils, linkages, board repair, plastics, LEDs, trim, all the shipping and all the other small parts that nickel and dime a restoration to death. Now you can start adding in the mods you are talking about. Now, you have a restored pin together, now dial it in and make all the adjustments and work out any bugs. Then figure up all the time that was put into this restoration, most claim time doesn't count but ask anybody who has done a restoration and they will either tell you otherwise, or that they wouldn't sell their pin at the "going rate" because they couldn't replace it for that cost, or they paid Chris at HEP $4k-$6k for labor.

With all that said, where can I get one of these original and restored MM pins for around $8k?

I'm seriously considering an AFMR instead of an original. But if an original were to come available in the right condition for the right price I might consider grabbing it because I am really in the hobby to buy and fix up older games not but new ones. But I must say I am torn a bit between the two. I really like the remake and what it has to offer and I am somewhat in doubt that an original would come available for the right price. I also believe that the remake would hold its value over time (especially the standard).

The martians didn't bounce much at all on the one I played in Allentown.

I've heard multiple reports about the martians being underwhelming and that Strobe multiball is weak because they are using LEDs to simulate the Strobe and it was not bright enough. Both of these were supposedly addressed via software that recently released but I haven't asked in the owner's thread if they are fixed because people in those threads tend to get testy if you suggest there might be problems with their new games.

They are around.... i have one sitting in my house that i picked up not long ago. Has color dmd, lightup lightning backboard (very awesome mod), lighted troll-dragon-merlin, upgraded sound chrome edition ( not installed)leds, mantis-cliffy special lighted apron (not installed) , lighted troll eyes, pinblades (not installed yet) , moat led strip and some other things. Its has a very nice restored original playfied and game looks better than new inside and out. I have a friend that just picked up a restored one 2 months ago for 8k but no mods. Mine was a killer deal at just under 9k bc if all the expensive mods . Ive gotten great deals on all my restored pins and usually make a few thousand off them once i sell. Ive learned that persistence and patience pay off in this hobby. Also being at the right place at the right time lol. 20170227_060755 (resized).jpg
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Heres a video of my mm and the cool mods...

beaut clark (resized).jpg

Friend just sold a very nice afm with nice upgrades(bill ung, color dmd ) and many other mods for 6500. It was also re decaled . There are deals out there for sure.

That's a real nice one you have there! That's not the norm to find a MM machine in that condition for that price. Even you state you normally make a couple thousand more when you sell and that puts your MM in the $11k range, well above the $7-$8k for a NIB MMr. That is a nice machine, I'd like to have it!

Id sell mm for around 9500-10k when the time comes bc i have did a fair amount to it . I just sold my restored mb for 9500 bc i needed room for dile. Op got a great deal imo. Prices on potential remakes are going down some imo.

Isnt a nib mmr shipped around 8300?

I think so, I haven't bought one but have heard people get them cheaper

I may have been wrong about the head. I swear it appeared but jointed on the one at pinburgh. I actually ran my hand over the joint because it wasn't flush with the back panel. Looking at pictures online, it certainly looks like a lock mitre joint was used. Those look to be the top of the line one for the topper and the one at pinburgh wasn't so who knows. I very well could be wrong on that part. The martians were most assuredly not as lively as those on a wpc. IMG_2761 (resized).JPG

I say buy a remake because it's brand new and cheaper. You can just make a phone call and get one shipped to your house. Findnig an original in great shape takes time, energy, and lots of cash. In the case of AFM, you might be able to find an original a little cheaper but it's still a 20 year old pin. I guess if you are a true collector you want original. I honestly don't care about all that and just want to own fun pins to play. If you are worried about reliability then you are in the wrong hobby. Old or new, something is always going to be an issue at some point. I would be more worried about boards going bad in old games were replacements are near impossible - like WPC95 av boards.

I made my decision and it was remake. Its sounds like CGC has been very responsive with any issues so far, so I'm comfortable from a support reliability standpoint. Plus they will be making games for years to come.

Awesome.
However if you were to look around, your neighbors are probably not in this boat.

Remakes are awesome... beautiful machines. I'd buy one. But, modern games use a lot of SMD chips that are basically impossible for most of us to replace. I had a Stern game go down and it was costly to get an SMD swapped.

So, something to keep in mind.

Remake all the way. Very happy with both of mine.

Except for some of the processor chips, surface mount parts really aren't any harder to replace than through hole parts. I always avoided surface mount until I actually tried it. Watch a youtube video, and practice on some cheap toy. If you are comfortable soldering the old stuff, you will be fine on these.

The chips that use ball grid array are a different story. If repairs start becoming common on these boards, I am pretty sure there will be people out there with the equipment to repair them.

From what I've seen and played, these remakes are absolutely stunning. Higher quality clearcoat, higher quality audio, higher quality video, LEDs (with built-in OCD functions), and they're brand new, not 20+ years old beaten around on location. For the same amount of money (or more), you can get the same game without those features. Why bother?

Personally, in the future, I foresee the originals still being prized and collectable by those who place a meaningful emphasis on originality. But for literally everyone else who just wants a badass looking game that plays fantastically and looks brand new, the remakes are the way to go.

Since you asked... Clear coat that doesn't chip, inserts that are original and have very easy to read text on them, ability to put whatever color or brightness bulb (LED or incandescent) where you want them, an incredible amount of knowledge available on how to fix any problem that comes up and board sets that are in 10s of thousands of games. The remakes certainly have their pros, I'm not denying that and I agree that if you just want to unbox it and play it the remake MAY be a better choice but let's not forget that for both remakes so far there have been / are things that make them look and play unlike the originals and some issues.

It seems nice or very nice original MMs are way more expensive in the US in comparison to Germany.

A new MMR is about 9200EUR. A perfect professionally restored original MM you can get for 9-10KEUR.

Due to this I would always go with the original. Its more reliable (every single part has been given loving attention) and easier to repair (because I can repair WPC95s in my sleep and usually without even pulling out a manual).

And I have to admit that I do value the heritage of it having been originally assembled at Bally Williams a lot. I just like the thought that this very machine has been played and enjoyed for 20 years and is now in my gameroom in pristine condition.
To me the fact that it's original does transport way more value than the "just any readily available and replaceable brand new consumer product" that MMR is. The original is a toy AND collectible, MMR is "just" a toy.

They both play basically the same, MMR is also good quality - i guess they're pretty much par on that.

I don't like LEDs very much, so in my book that's another slight minus for MMR.

In the end, if I would get a (very nice) original for close to the same price as MMR I'd always go original.
If MMR is $2000+ cheaper than the original in your country, I'd probably go for MMR - even more so if I were a newbie.

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There are brightness and fade-style options ...you can basically make it look just like incandescent.

LEDOCD has got you covered. And for such a huge change / improvement, it is Cheap!

He was referring to the options to make an MMR/AFMR look more like incandescent bulbs.

Yeah... no. Sound chip was so ridiculously small... no way I have the tools on hand to take care of it. I talked to the repair guy (well known in pinball circles) and he confirmed they are super difficult to swap.

If you have the tools and know how to do it, more power to ya.

Original but only if really, really nice, so that means non faded, screen printed cabinet, plus nice original p/f.

Otherwise remake.

I think this is actually pretty easy to determine really. If you have an original, then the answer is original. If you have a remake, then the answer is going to be remake. I guess the only ones that could truly make an unbiased opinion is someone who currently has neither.

Ok, so about par on that. But then you still have the strange inserts.

Whatever, I'm not a MMR hater at all. Just a matter of personal preferences.

This thread is interesting because I'm currently on the hunt for an original MM myself.
My goal is to find a close to perfect original (no cleared PF, no mods, no new decals) for not more than 9K. That's my kind of thing. Been tied up in work and missed two great offers exactly fitting my needs, was to slow. I love hunting down that perfect one from the lot, discussing the price, picking it up meeting other pinheads! I've seen tears roll from childrens cheeks while I'm carrying the beloved family pin out of their house. Who would want to miss all that?
Seriously though, ordering a pin like a coffee machine, having it delivered and pulling it out of the box does nothing for me.
I guess I'm just strange.

I don't think that's true, I've thought about selling my MM and buying either an AFM or AFMR and I'm honestly on the fence about which direction I'd go. If the right deal on a really nice original came up that would be my preference but I could easily see myself buying the AFMR instead.