If the MM market falls any further I'm converting mine into an NBAFB!

LOL

i can't see that happening. Routed Tafs with heavy mansion wear still sell for $4-4500 and they made 22K of those. Not trying to burst your bubble, I could be wrong.

I am hoping for more like 3k-5k...

What's the over/under on number of days(or hours) before we see the first MM presale resale ad?

This is an excellent point. If a game is popular, it's popular.

I wonder how things will ultimately shake-out with the new vs. old MM's. It's been shown that NONE of the boards in the new MM's are the same as the old ones and a lot of us know that parts these days "ain't what they used to be", as far as build quality and fit and finish.

If the new MM's were 100% copies of the originals, yes, I could see the prices of those originals drop a bit. But since these machines are a horse of a different color(with respect to how they're built), it may not have the desired effect some collectors are hoping for....

Time will tell.

I'm guessing a day....

i think 3k is selling at a loss but i could be wrong.

Nice.

Post of the year

Wait for the next batch of non Les to start running. Then HUO. See what a routed old MM will fetch then.

Only if they prove to play 100% like the originals and their new board setup and parts have the same quality and longevity.....then, you've got a point.

Even worse what if the new boards and all parts for them are better and available.

means nothing if you have no plans to sell it nice to see them being remade, would love to see cactus canyon remade

My prediction for this and all the future countess similar threads:

1. A majority of current MM owners will predict a small drop.
2. A majority of non-MM owners will predict a large drop.

Happy flippin'...oh wait.

And 5 times the cost? That would be better....

A. Speculation
B. New game so why not speculate that I wont need those parts for a while.

Sounds like they are actually going to have more tournament options and possibly select-able DMD colors. I think this is a good thing.

Who in the hell is going to buy a routed one for over $5000? It doesn't matter if it's "original" as after you restore it with new cabinet decals and other reproductions bits it will no longer be.

I think you'll easily see a 30-40% drop

Originals will hold their value. Might drop a little by $1000-1500 but that's it.

Like a classic muscle car with original parts and matching numbers they are more valuable and collectible.

Not sure that the analogy holds. Original MMs will have more value to collectors, but if the rest of us pinball-playing hoard prefers the new MM, then there will be more than enough original MMs to satisfy the collectors. There is also the "threat" of continued production beyond the original 1000.

I am thinking that the masses vote with their wallets and expect a similar price on both. Think about it. Why would the average pinball player pay $12K for a old used MM when they can get a brand new one for $8K?

My prediction is that originals are worth about 20% more than new ones, no more ... so a new MM (at $8K) implies an old MM (in really nice condition) of slightly under $10k once the new ones are out.

MM, in my opinion, has just lost its place as a status symbol. AFM may be next.

The muscle car analogy does not even come close to applying here.

I am not a collector so original is always older than new and worth less. To me an older game will be third tier. A. NIB new game. B. HUO new game C. Old version great condition.
I have a feeling there are more of me than collectors.

That would make two of us. I prefer new and expect that most pinheads would agree with us.

Personally, If I liked MM, I would pay 8K for a new one. I wouldn't pay more than 6K for an original. I've had pins stripped down - every nut, bolt, screw, fastener removed, boards out, components out of the boards, cabinets down to bare wood, etc. At the end of the day, a stop nut is a stop nut. And in many cases, I find that reproductions are better than originals (Pinball, Inc.). Board serial numbers decals can be recreated. As can serial number labels.

Point is, I don't care that my machine was put together by Inspector #53 in 1997, or Inspector #1 in 2013. I just want to buy a pinball machine to play because I like the title. And if PPS doesn't cut corners, and delivers with Williams build quality, I think you see a lot less "8K routed MMs" get ANY attention).

I have been looking for an AFM for awhile, and have been contemplating a conversion. With this news, I believe the used AFM market has just lost me as a prospect. Of course I am assuming AFM is next. I can wait. So demand is now -1.

But that is just me- obvious not a "true collector."

Honestly, this is a silly perspective. Just trying to be real here...

There were 14 BBBs. Gene "remade" the game and was able to release about 190 more. There are now about 200 BBBs in existence. For the most part, until Gene remade the machine, the game wasn't overly expensive, probably because it wasn't so very well known. The remake started prices for it on the upward trend, and the fact the originals are SO limited (and almost none of them are willing to be moved) means that of course they are going to need a premium.

There were people selling original MMs yesterday, and there will be more selling them tomorrow. The supply of the market for the few collectors that want an original one isn't going to be overly tiny to create the sort of bidding war that keeps the original BBB price so far above the "repro" BBB price. But that is no different than the proto examples of just about *any* B/W title.

There is NO way that the price of an original MM won't go down at least somewhat by this development. How much is the question. For me, I didn't pay $3,500 for one when I had the chance (before the market exploded) so it doesn't really affect me one way or the other unless they come back down to about that level.

Ditto here. The only original owners who are going to be upset are those that were planning on selling for a profit in the near future...

Greatest thing to happen in pinball for years. This will certainly put an end to people paying crazy prices for pinballs just because they want it now and can afford it now. All it was doing was driving prices up to stupid levels for the rest of us who couldn't afford to pay over the top prices.

Finally the madness has stopped.

Wait till the other announcements are made.

Booming times for pinball ahead, get on for the ride.

IMO, most MM aren't going to be worth 4K.

Nobody should be paying more than half of what a NIB machine costs.

I agree that exceptionally nice ones would be worth 5K.....but those would have to be spectacular specimens. The days for a 8-10K beat up routed MM is over.

I can hear the slimy flippers squirming at the loss. It's a good day for pinball.

Wow. That's a target-rich environment. The best is "This will certainly put an end to people paying crazy prices for pinballs just because they want it now and can afford it now."....What is a "crazy" price? Do you realize that 1000 people just paid $8000 for a pinball game? You're talking like an $8000 MM is like buying a share of Google for $200. Does $8000 for a pinball game seem even a little bit crazy to you? As recently as 3 or 4 years ago, the concept of an $8000 pinball machine was unimaginable, and now it is being welcomed like a popsicle on a hot day.

Q: What's a "stupid" price level? What is an "over-the-top" price? A: It's a price someone else will pay, but which you can't afford.

And the comment about "booming times for pinball ahead"...OK, there are 1000 people that just dropped $8000 for a MM. There is also a Pinside thread asking "How are you going to pay for your MM?". If a guy couldn't afford the over-the-top, crazy price of, say, $15,000 for a MM, how is he going to afford $8000 for MM and then another $8000 for MB or CC or whatever? Where do the "boom times" come from?

The only way the that field of original MM's will drop drastically is if the reissues are better in every way. I just don't see that happening. In fact, people are going to pour over these machines to show how they are different with a bias towards how they are inferior to the original. It's not a bolt-for-bolt copy, but it is a way to get a MM in your basement!

I am more interested if these $8k machines will drop after a year or two to $7k or less since this seems to be happening to a lot of Stern games not named Tron. My buddy has been picking up great deals on LE machines because he can wait. MM is not equal to modern Stern games, but speculation is fun, right?

Just think of how cheap the standard version MM remake will be a year or so after it gets released! I'll probably get one then. Keep in mind that by the time they get those non-LE's out, all the bugs from the LE's will have been worked out and all the good, known, reliable parts will be in them! THAT will be the machine to get!

Like all "first time buyers" I am looking forward to the ripple down affect hope they get it right.

All markets (except the ones you are no doubt going to tell me about) need activity at the lower end enabling the movement up the chain.

Thats the point. AT 8k one a year is doable ,15 k its not. And MM is the king so we are expecting others to be less.

Noteworthy some state carte blanche they'd prefer a reproduction--when the build-quality vs. factory-original Williams is over a year away from being actually assessed.

Quite a leap.

And the classic-car vs. clone analogy is applicable IMO.

Any type of collectible is a collectible--pristine originals always trump reproductions in every instance in both quality and market value.

Pristine is the important word there. In my opinion, all of those restore candidate MMs that need cab decals, repro playfields, etc... Just got their price capped at $6500 or less. Who is going to buy one that needs a $1500 restoration when you can buy a repro for that same $8k.

The HEP MMs and other pristine originals will still remain ultra valuable.

Agree with the pristine distinction--but with respect to routed originals in need of resto, I think it still comes down to the yet-unknown actual quality result in the future...if a solid-build like JJP, then quite possibly so.

FWIW: agreed.

In summary: Day 1 is obviously way too early to tell how the reproduction will turn out--not exactly apples-to-apples but an IE.:

I've put quite a few games on the reproduction King of Diamonds since it landed at the PHOF; conclusion: I'd greatly prefer a pristine/restored original personally--just felt different among other reasons.

Wow this move is a major vacuum hit on the available money in the pin system.

Prices will drop on the market for a lot of items

Star Trek sales will take a major hit, so will The Hobbit.

People are all over this. I'm waiting for the dust to clear out but......wow.

Was on pinside this afternoon, before Da Bomb, now.........nobody is talking about anything else.

My guess is 2 days after the 1,000 are sold out.

This IS changing pinball, everybody will have one thing in mind : can they make a remake of this pin too ?

The sky is falling ..Arrrrrgg.. RUN FOR THE HILLS...The hills are falling...RUN AWAY.

The price for original HUO game will not be affected in the long run. But the days of getting $7000 out a routed beater are done.
Purist collectors will always hold a higher value on an original collectible item. As mentioned in other threads, the value of an original Cobra did not go down when 4 other aftermarket companies were building the identical car under a different license. The price of original HUO games will not take a hit except for the totally stupid prices of the Ebay games for $24,000.
This simply puts great looking and playing new games into the hands of owners to play. It cuts out some of the flippers that everyone in this hobby has been bitching about forever. But on the same topic it hurts some guys who bought the games cheap and put a lot of restoration time into them to resell. Hopefully there are not too many of those guys affected. But its obvious that someone had inside information that this remake was coming by the amount of MMs that showed up for sale in the past few months. It was a red flag that some of us discussed over beer but never on these forums.
This is only 1000 games. 4000+ were built originally and will be distinctive. To the purist collectors of perfect games it will not make much difference in their value. Collecting is all about "original". If you paid $15,000 for a game to actually play and have your kids beat up you're gonna take a hit. Sorry.....but no guarantees of future value are implied in any hobby.

Classic cars and pinball are way different.

If someone takes an original nice pinball machine, replaces the playfield, redecals the sides, replaces all the parts with new ones, etc, that game is going to be worth way more than when they started.

If someone takes a nice original car (like a corvette) with original engine, replaces the engine, repaints it, replaces all the parts with new ones, that car is going to worth less. Like I have a 72 vette...it doesn't have the original engine, so it's worth way less than one that does. Doesn't matter what engine I have, it's not original, and that's what matters in it's value. That concept does not exist in the pinball world at all, as all the new parts and focus on having restored games have made it non existent.

Originality matters a TON in the car world, it matters almost nothing in the pinball world except for some pristine examples. Frankly, I don't even understand why it's such a big deal in the car world, who cares if the engine isn't original as long as it drives ok...I think pinball has it right. Restomods are about the only place where there are some similarities in my opinion.

I mentioned pristine originals vs. reproductions.

Horrible comparison.....there were what 10 original BBB's compared to well over 4k original MM's? The Originals will come down some especially the beat up routed ones.

so whats a routed mm worth??

What's up guys , no love for my page one comment. Nobody bet against me but come on not even a freakin thumbs up!

They are making more indeed. I'll give you your thumb up but don't take it too personal I think all that MMR is overwhelming.

Too many threads and people are having problems keeping up.

I'd wait, after a while you will be able to buy a Huo mmr for that same money. Ed