(Topic ID: 205640)

The Nifty Playboy Bulldog Incident

By Sticky

6 years ago


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  • 1,375 posts
  • 220 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Who-Dey
  • Topic is favorited by 37 Pinsiders

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Topic index (key posts)

33 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #30 @NiftyLED lists the customer's machine for sale on Ebay. Posted by Sticky (6 years ago)

Post #51 Sticky posts more screenshots of messages exchanged with Nifty. Posted by Sticky (6 years ago)

Post #154 @NiftyLED offers to buy the machine for $800. Posted by NiftyLED (6 years ago)

Post #186 Additional screenshots from @Sticky Posted by Sticky (6 years ago)


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-60
#146 6 years ago

The Pinside Pitchforks are really out strong on this one without ever hearing the other side of the story.

The UNDISPUTED FACTS ARE Customer agreed to all of the work done to the machine, i've got this all on text message.

I am not looking for a big payday here, ive got time and money in to this machine, ordering parts, paying contractors for work done to this machine, all at the customers direction and permission.

Am I just supposed to eat all of this work done to it because the customer now decides he doesnt want to pay for it?

-40
#152 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

You're not supposed to sell my machine for over $5k just because you decide to. That's probably the first place to start.
Pitchforks? I posted the texts. I'll gladly post more.
So sorry you got caught.

You dont want to pay for the work done.. what am i supposed to do? Hold the machine in perpetuity forever?

-139
#154 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

Guys, ask yourselves if I would have ever agreed to the work if the cost would be $4200.
What is more likely? I agree to $1850 and we add on a board and playfield touch up since it's taking so long or I just said go wild and give me whatever price you feel like. Then, sell the machine if you feel like it too.
Horrible feeling.

How about i give you the $800 you paid for the machine and this all goes away? Since you wont answer your texts anymore

-79
#163 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

Do you guys see what this is about now? He took my machine, treated it like his own, and now wants to cash it out. So he sends me $800 and makes whatever he is listing it at on Ebay or Craigslist or whatever.
You're a clown. Also, a petty scammer. This is how you need to make money?

So instead of trying to work this out, you resort to name calling? great..

-3
#169 6 years ago
Quoted from Fezmid:

How is "I'll pay you $800 to keep your game" working it out?

This game was in shambles when it came to me, couldnt even stand on all 4 legs...

#180 6 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Just WHY are you not honoring original quote plus extras???

The OP isnt telling you the whole story here..

He agreed to replace all the boards, LED displays, LED kit, chrome on all the metal, new plastic set, replace the cabinet... I did all of this without asking for a dime in advance

The original quote was to paint the cab & shop out the game - nothing more

#184 6 years ago
Quoted from Buzz:

No wonder it's 2k more they contract out the restoration work.

Contracting out chrome and touchup isnt something we do ourselves...

-9
#207 6 years ago
Quoted from davebart5:

It’s clear Nifty wants to keep the game. They probably fell in love with it after seeing all the drooling responses all over their social media pages. They’ve taken many photos of your game and used it for marketing.
Now they want to keep a restored Playboy for $800.
#nevernifty

We want nothing to do with this game - dont even like the theme - we just want to be made whole

#208 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

From what I read
$1850 for original work
$100 in touch ups
$375 for boards
$225 for MPU
so you expected to pay: $2550

Chrome
LED Displays
LED lights
Plastic set
Theres more that he approved to do that he isnt telling you about

#212 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

That's odd considering you told me you bought this game previously. Not this theme, this exact machine.

We bought it as a package - sold this game to the guy you bought it from for $500

#219 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

ok then please show us that....

I've got all the texts for them except for the LED displays, since that was quite some time ago...

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#223 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

We 'discussed' those things when we set upong $1850 at my house. The very first thing we agreed to in that price was the LED's and plastics.
The price was $2k but I asked if he would do $1850 cash and he said yes.

Plastics and LEDs were never agreed to in that price..

I dont think playboy plastics were even available when i first picked up the machine

-2
#237 6 years ago
Quoted from bpa:

1,850 seems a bit high for paint and a shop job.

The guys cabinet was falling apart and he had a doorbell button as a start button drilled in to the cabinet... the cabinet needed SERIOUS work. It would not even stand on 4 legs cause you couldnt get them all on without the game falling over

-3
#247 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

Odd there isn't proof of it. Also odd you would knowing that we agreed to $1850 do work for beyond the amount we agreed to unless you thought I would pay without thinking twice about it.
I guess that happens when you see someone younger than you with a nicer home, a bulldog, two Porsches, a 70 inch 4k screen, three pinball machines, and whatever else you were drooling over.

I saw the Cayenne in the garage that you said isnt yours and the 1 High Speed pinball machine you have... nothing more.. I could give a crap

#252 6 years ago
Quoted from albummydavis:

Sounds like your best argument is that you don't know how to quote your own work accurately and now want more because your expenses were higher than you thought. Lame. You screwed up, and unless you gave the OP a heads up on increased costs, you blew it. No one to blame but yourself. Now you think the machine is worth more, so you want to sell it. Or keep it as a showcase. Pretty shady, and likely completely illegal.
Unless you can produce anything showing the OP agreed to these new charges, you're 100% in the wrong.

100% not the case here - The work done to this game was 100% approved by JOSEPH

#261 6 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Well I’m sure the last straw was listing the game for sale with no documented attempt by nifty to get the guy this game for the agreed upon cost or something inbetween that and the final cost experienced.
Nifty did a terrible job estimating/managing this project and had cost overruns. Unless the customer approves those through a change order, nifty eats it. Plain and simple. It happens. They just need to get this game to the OP for 2550 and call it a day.

So he agrees to do chrome but doesnt have to pay for it? Thats how that works?

-3
#272 6 years ago
Quoted from too-many-pins:

I have been in the "service business" most of my life and I would always call a customer if there was a major change to work being done or cost. With something like this machine I could see a couple hundred over original quote but you can't up your cost by over $2000 without customers OK regardless of you reasons.
Second - you can't put machine up for sale for at least 90 days - if at all. You must give owner time to get machine regardless of "what you think".
Third - you are luck not to end up in court after having a machine 4 times as long as you agreed on originally. Owner has been more than fair so do the right thing or destroy your business & end up losing in court.
There might be two sides to every story but as a business owner your side seems very weak at best!

This all added up, slowly over time

Do you want to do this? Yes, Do you want to do this? yes - over the 3 or whatever many years ive had this game...

#289 6 years ago
Quoted from pipes:

niftyled how exactly did you come up with that $4200 number anyways? Where's the cost breakdown? Parts, Labor, etc...

Heres a list of parts used

stencil kit
chrome leg bolts
purple gels
Alltek lamp board
Alltek MPU board
Alltek Solenoid board
lane guides
coil
playfield red posts
flipper & shaft
chrome lift trim
cabinet buttons and housings
leg bolt plate
plastic set
LED displays
pop bumper cap set
pop bumper body
led kit
rubber kit
coin door price plates
coin door sticker
pop bumper skirt

and the list of services performed - excluding my labor - how many hours do you think it would take to get this game to where it is?

Cabinet repair, sand, basecoat
playfield touchup
chrome/polishing of metal parts

-2
#294 6 years ago
Quoted from JeffreeStar:

Hey niftyled you need to learn how to talk to a customer without being an idiot. but quick question... Why did you steal your website URL and business name from Evan from Orange County Pinball in Fullerton, CA? His website has a "s" after pinball... http://www.orangecountypinballs.com and has been in business way longer than you have. Was it you goal to confuse customers since his company is so well known and has a great reputation?

Sorry, it was 100% the other way around as far as i know.

I didnt even know about Evan

#297 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The guy knows the price of bulldogs and TVs, not pinball machines.
I do similar work sometimes for folks. Whenever more work is requested, or issues come up, THE FIRST THING I DO is talk money. The guy kept asking for things and expected it would be free? That's silly. You kept agreeing/suggesting more work and never mentioned that this crappy game was turning into a money pit? That's silly too.
What's the cost of a nice bulldog go for these days anyway? I'm looking to impress my mailman!

Ill agree with you 100% here... there appears to have been a communication issue

#318 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

I disagree about the projector as since I've been doing 4k gaming on it I just don't think a projector would offer the same image quality in all light levels or do as well with the image speed.
Anyway, obviously communication was poor that doesn't excuse stealing my machine. He didn't even say anything. He didn't even try to come to terms.
It was more like, 'He won't give me $4200? Screw it I'll sell it and get even more.'
He can't produce anything saying he intends to a do a 'lien' or whatever else. He literally as caught red handed and instead of stepping up to do the right thing taunts me to go the police. What a shame.

So, were at a stalemate here... what do we do? You wont discuss over text message "do whatever you want but do it while texting someone else"

Im in this machine for X - your budget is Y - what is the Z here?

-70
#321 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

Yeah, I'm really hard to reach, eh?
The Z is not sell my property illegally, I can tell you that. I don't want you doing any equations.
The offer is $2550 after trying to steal my machine and I suggest you take it.

$3000 and ill be done with this mess... thats my final offer, needs to be paid in CASH.

Your $2550 doesnt even cover what im in it on parts/sub work

#330 6 years ago
Quoted from BrewNinja:

So for the things I have prices listed for, that's roughly $1360 in parts, without any kind of discount and some of the prices are high, but figured I would go to the high end vs low. Being you are a business, I would also assume you get a discount on those.

Youre not including any sub work and no, i pay retail for all of my parts and had to get some unobtanium parts from England too..

#347 6 years ago

Ive offered to settle this for 3k to be done with it, im eating all of my time and labor here -

All of this noise from everyone saying I need to make this right - this is my "make it right"

OP 100% AGREED TO ALL OF THE WORK ON THIS MACHINE.... hes not debating any of that - he approved the chrome, the led displays, the leds, ive got most of the approvals in my text messages..

Everything else is just noise... lets be done with this..

-60
#357 6 years ago

stalemate it is... I'm fine with going to small claims if needed

-10
#362 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

what about jail?

What law has been broken here? please quote me the PC?

#368 6 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

is this really worth your business? I hope you have another job besides pinball.

Damage is done already

#374 6 years ago
Quoted from Fezmid:

You shouldn't be. He'll be able to sue for more than just the machine being sold for $2550. He'll be able to get damages on top of that. My landlord learned that the hard way when he refused to return my security deposit...

damages? what damages does he have?

-6
#393 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

If I was vindictive I wouldn't be trying to resolve this but I'd be at the Corona police department and filing in small claims court as we speak.

Youre not at all trying to resolve this.

Youre being a brick and not moving an inch..

Ive given you a yard and you want more...

You havent disputed ever throughout this thread that you authorized every last piece of work on this game...

#414 6 years ago
Quoted from Fezmid:

Why do you say it would go to an arbitrator? Is that a California thing? In my situation (not the same, as mine was rental law, but whatever), I went directly to court and won the judgement. (of course, the landlord literally said at one point, "I raised my right hand and promised to tell the truth, isn't that good enough?" The judge was not amused... ).

Small claims makes you arbitrate first in California - they really try and make you settle it without having to get a judge involved

#425 6 years ago
Quoted from tommyp:

And this is coming from...experience? From what I've seen here that "10" people that wont do business with you can be upped to 11. Not that you'd care..

Experience, no.. reading, yes

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/basic_info.shtml

"Before filing a case in small claims court, it’s important to decide whether going to small claims court is the best way to resolve your dispute. Many disputes can be resolved by using other dispute resolution methods, such as mediation. Many counties help resolve disputes informally through their local consumer affairs offices, or through local public or private dispute resolution or mediation programs."

-54
#452 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

So what the hell are we waiting for here niftyled?

You've got my number, text or call when youve got 3k in your hand and we can meet up. I came down $1200, you can come up $500.

I'm fine with letting a judge decide this if thats the route you want to go.

-22
#460 6 years ago
Quoted from Fezmid:

Right, which is why I think the OP is probably in the clear here, although he'd have to research what California lets him claim for extra damages (in Minnesota, I found that I was allowed to sue for twice the security deposit plus $200 because landlord illegally withheld it). He has lots of texts he can print out. He can also print out this thread and highlight the important pieces. And if Nifty is as much of a jerk in court as he is here (my landlord was...), it's a slam dunk.
You're right that the judge will want to make both sides "happy" and "mad" at the same time, but this really feels like an open and shut case to me based on what we've seen.

What exact damages does OP have? has he lost any money? has he lost his machine? no, he can have the machine if he pays for the repairs done to it. Its the same thing if you take your car to a mechanic.

-1
#465 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

So I see you're still resorting to pinball terrorism.
That's fine man. It's not like I had high hopes for your character.
Let's start with the police report today as selling stolen goods isn't a good thing. Also saved you ended the Ebay auction.

Asking for money for proper work thats ive done isnt terrorism.

Make sure to show the police your unpaid invoice.

-1
#468 6 years ago
Quoted from Fezmid:

I already answered this earlier. The damages are time from you not sticking to the agreement. In Minnesota (I can't speak to California), a landlord not returning your security deposit means the tenant can sue for twice the deposit plus a $200 penalty. So in my case, my landlord didn't want to give me my $500 security deposit back -- and I was able to sue him for $1200.
This is pretty similar in concept. You have his machine and you aren't giving it back for the agreed upon price. You're holding him hostage. There will be penalties for his damages.

He agreed to have his machine worked on, he agreed to every last part modified or installed on his machine.

-15
#541 6 years ago

I'd still like to point out that OP has still not ever denied letting me proceed with the work even if cost wasnt mentioned..

Did he really think chrome was free? LED displays are free? LEDs? Plastic set?

11/28/2017 is the date I told you the total and the date that I wrote up that invoice...

#545 6 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Nifty, don't be anymore stupid , accept the legal $2805 and be done with it.

Where are you getting that figure? nowhere has he said he'd pay that

-13
#562 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

Um I denied it and posted the texts denying it. You just have poor reading comprehension. Anyone who spends the morning after being caught selling someone's machine creating an invoice after the fact has to have poor reading skills.

Thats a lie

"chrome would look great"

"yeah new posts, plastics pop bumpers"

"yeah id like that"

"ive waited that long, lets just do it"

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

-1
#572 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

'AS WE DISCUSSED.'
Why leave that part out? Oh, because we freaking discussed it when we agreed to the price. Why else would I say that?
I already posted all those texts. They show what I agreed to which adds up to $700 not an additional $2350.
Wow.

Nowhere in our discussion did i agree to that!

-23
#584 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

Prices listed in the texts are $225 + $375 + $100 = 700
ALL OF WHICH I AGREED TO.
How does $700 turn into $2350 and $4200?

Did you honestly think a plastic set was free? LED displays are FREE? honestly? just tell me that and ill try to wrap my head around it

#594 6 years ago
Quoted from Seatmandan:

So what did the initial $2000, discounted to $1850 resto price ACTUALLY cover if it didn't include these pieces? Plactics are ~$300.00 and posts are dirt cheap

Cab repaint/repair and a shop out

#598 6 years ago
Quoted from FrankJ:

Just agree to the $2805, agree to a middle person insure the machine is complete as advertised and get on with life - BOTH of you...

Im fine with this - have op send a neutral 3rd party with cash to pick it up... im so done...

#614 6 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

It's over. I'll have some guys sent with the cash to his Corona address today.
I'm being as calm and civil as possible I think all things considering.

One guy, ONE GUY.

You have my number, please make arrangements that way...

-1
#624 6 years ago
Quoted from Fezmid:

Oh, you're going to load the machine for him? And take the loss if you accidentally drop it? Otherwise I think he'll need at least two. Maybe 3.

I will happily assist the one guy in loading the machine.

Sorry ive got a family and i do not need 10 unknown strangers in my house

#652 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The dude has a bulldog and a big TV. This shit is small potatoes for him.
It's not about the money at this point bro!

Nifty...please for the love of all that is holy, take him up on this offer.
He's gonna come back with "throw in a bag of Cool Ranch and I'll consider it."

ive accepted and just waiting for him to call/text whatever and arrange a time to come get it

#670 6 years ago

For all of you doubters about when the machine was finished...and how much work went in to it...

It makes me a little sad how this ended...

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#682 6 years ago

Before pics

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-54
#690 6 years ago

Hi All,
Nate here. I'm Daniel's partner in Nifty LED and the repair side of the business, from which this all began. I'm sorry this has gotten so out of hand, and had a couple other things I'd like to clarify: The communication with the customer was there the whole time. It wasn't a sudden increase in price, it was just a sudden shock of all the things he agreed to as this went along. We've been completely transparent and whenever pricing was asked, we provided, honored and have been in contact. Before we took the machine, we told the customer that the wait time was going to be VERY long, simply because we had a lot of other machines in queue and changes in our lives were going to slow work even further. We finally got to his and started working on it. We like to take our time, to ensure a good job, and this one was no different.... it took a long time, just as we had told the customer up front. It's sometimes said, "The one who shoots first, is usually the one that wins the gun fight". Clearly, several pages of posts before we had a chance to say out side of the story made us look like the bad guy and we were too late to defend ourselves. Your minds had already been made up, and there's really no use beating a dead horse.

Besides all of this, it's so disheartening to see where this has gone. Daniel and I have a strong client base and if you know us, personally, or have shaken our hand at the shows, I'm sure you'd agree that the way we've been made out to look like is certainly not our character. The posting of the game on eBay was inappropriate and we have no excuses for it. We were seeking reimbursement for the time and parts we had put into the game. For that, we apologize for the lapse in judgement. After invoicing the customer, he eventually stopped communicating and we were left wondering what to do from there. We tried reaching out several times but there was radio silence from him.

As a side note, I fell in love with pinball several years ago and became a member of Pinside almost immediately (private acct) and have since been less active due to a busy schedule. So many people in our local pinball league have said what a toxic place Pinside has become and I've always tried to stay positive and see the good in people on this forum but unfortunately we have become the one which fingers are being pointed at. This hurts. I can't help but feel the same way as them and although Pinside is supposed to be a conduit for us as a place to learn, help each other it seems to have turned into something else. I'm sad that this place, the very thing that's supposed to HELP pinball, is one of the reasons I've begun to lose a lot of interest in pinball. The fun is gone here.

To those of you who have sent us PM's, text messages and have called us, we appreciate the support. To those of you who think you know the whole story and have condemned us, that's your decision based on an incomplete set of facts and we respect that. Feel free to reply if you wish, but we will not be responding to any more posts.

Regards,
Nate

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