Only one finite description IMO: NIB. All other descriptions/categories are entirely arbitrary.

You know what they say about assuming don't you?

Right...Unless the box fell of a truck before you buy it.

Ugh, does someone have to say that every time anyone uses that word?

"Collector Quality" is a nice-sounding but vague term used to make you want to buy the game, as are "mint", "huo", "must see", etc. Someone mentioned standardization of terms, but how can you standardize something that is really just an opinion? When I was into musclecars I once went to look at a '71 Mustang that was described as "mint", and the first thing I noticed was a rot hole on the top of the front fender that I could poke three fingers through.

Ambiguous terms in describing something for sale are useless. You want to describe a pin for sale, here are some non-ambiguous terms that would leave very little to my imagination:

"backglass is perfect, no scratches or blemishes, like brand new."
"dime-sized wear spot down to wood near left slingshot, some wear around inserts"
"everything works except flippers are weak and need a rebuild."
"cabinet repainted and restenciled but backbox has since been scratched on left side."

EDIT: even NIB is a vague term. It's new, it's in a box, but that's about it; batteries may still have leaked, inserts sunk, etc. This is why even brand new cars get a dealer prep.

Does somebody have to keep using "that" word?

There's nothing wrong with the word "assume". It's a perfectly useful word to describe people's expectations. But the "you make an ass of you and me" thing is like the "HOT ENOUGH FOR YA??" of snarky internet posts.

Lesson learned. Do not quote Pezpunk...donot quotepezpunk...dntqutepzpnk..forgetit.

or the ever dreaded, but real... fork-lift whack-a-pin during delivery process.

Here are the "IMPLIED" conditions:

Collector Quality - "Better than NIB" (Recent HEP's are a prime example).

NIB - "Self Explanatory"

Mint - "You could have just slid it out of the box yourself....same condition as NIB"

Restored HUO - "Never routed and everything has been cleaned/replaced/fixed. Not quite CQ but way better than average HUO".

HUO - " Never routed - Excellent Overall Condition, may have minor ding,scratch or crack, working 100%"

Players - "May have various cosmetic issues and some playfield wear/cracked plastics, but plays 100%, most likely been routed."

Project - "Needs major restorative work on body/playfield. Not fully functioning."

Fire wood - "May be used as kindling"

sadly, i have a couple that would be described explicitly as that....

This is a decent list but HUO is more a statement of history rather than current condition. HUO for newer Sterns/JJP only a few years old can certainly imply nice condition, but certainly less of a guarantee for decades-old games. In fact I've seen and owned routed games nicer than HUO, and even fully restored games can become players quality in just a few years. Current condition is a better indicator than history, and as such the only terms most people agree on are "mint"/NIB/CQ and "players quality".... finding common terms in-between is much tougher.

My thoughts on 'outing'....even if seller or whomever is wrong, there are still the good ol' boys(or girls)who will come out and defend him/her. Always avoid the drama but one time on RGP I felt I had to post a deal/promise gone wrong. Lots of yay me posts but also the ones who come out to defend 'bad' seller.....also got a lot of private emails 'defending' me but didn't want to post publicly as they didn't want to be known.

What ever you decide, best of luck to you and hopefully you can make the game what it should have been and enjoy. When I have gotten games that weren't as described I made them the best I could but never held onto them as it kinda' left a bad taste on my flippers. ; )

I would like to know the seller's handle so I could avoid dealing with them in the future.

When a pedophile moves into your neighborhood you sure want to know about it. If a cop stopped by just to let you know there was one around, good luck finding out who it is, you'd want answers.

You have let us know there's an undesirable in our midst, but wont give us the information to protect ourselves. I think you are obligated to name him, since you brought it to the public's attention.

IMO!

HUO has a dual-use. Just like where the term "routed" came from--the pin was on a "route", which might or might not actually be where it actually was. It's just a common way to try to describe the overall condition.

a CQ game to me is one thats cond will be in the top 5% of that tittle still in existence.
i focus more on HQ "hoarders quality" and there in the bottom 5%.

I'm late to the game, Out him!

For me, collector quality means the guy is asking more than I'm willing to pay for a particular title.

A CQ game for me can be one of the last 5% of a particular title left in existence.

Look at the final product of this restoration: this is "Collector Quality" in my book:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/star-trek-tng-next-chapter

FYI - I cannot afford Collector Quality pins!

Exactly.

That cabinet looks bad. I don't even need to see anything else to know that the game was routed. Not HUO, not CQ, not 10 out of 10 mint. None of them. Although, you could fix those cabinet chunks missing fairly easily, the seller mislead you and I would love to know who it is so I never deal with him/her.

As a rule, I never buy games I can't see and pick up in person. Nothing is so cool (to me) to risk what may happen in shipping or, taking someone's work as good (i.e. informed) in the pinball hobby.

Don't get me wrong...I don't condone the seller - he should have NEVER used the term Collector Quality. I just don't think he knows what "Collector Quality" means, and to him those issues were not severe and he saw it as a super nice machine (to him, it was collector quality). Again, I think the price reflects the condition, and having met the seller I don't think he intentionally was being deceptive, but just ignorant to our picky terminology.

Again everybody has their own tastes on this stuff.

I'll NEVER advertise a game as "players" as I think it undersells it. I might post that in a WTB ad though because I know what people generally think of it. I think there's a pretty big window between "players" and "HUO," though obviously the pickier people here don't.

You're missing the games that may have been routed, or their history is unknown, but are in excellent original condition. These can be in better (sometimes much better) condition than games that are home use only. Lots of times the home use only games have never been cleaned or serviced. Compare that to a game that was on location for a few months, was not abused, was rarely played, and then stored. I'd go for the "routed" game in better condition over the HUO that's been played more and never serviced.

I understand what you are saying here but let's be honest. Regarding the "pre Stern days of pinball machines", I would guess that the % of buyers that bought NEW IN BOX pins to "only play them in their own homes" was certainly < 10% of all total manufacturer's sales. Pre-2000 HUO pinball games are harder to find than the same title NIB a lot of times.

I've seen HUO pre-2000 games around and they are rare, but the point I was making is that just because they are HUO does not mean that they are in better condition than a "routed" game. I have seen "routed" games that are in fantastic shape with obviously low plays. I have seen HUO games that were played 1000s of times, have playfield wear, were abused by kids, never cleaned, never had replacement rubbers, etc. Some "routed" games sat in the corner of somebody's shop and never got heavy play. Some routed games got put in an arcade for a few months and then sit in storage, unplayed after that.

I just think that HUO is more of a hint that you could have a really nice machine, but that's about it. Frankly, HUO games can just about run the same variations in condition that any non-HUO game has. All it means to me is a better chance that the game will be nice, and maybe a warm fuzzy feeling.

Because of the above HUO is not a good term to describe condition.

Seriously man it's AMAZING how many people here don't get this. Well said

What we need is a company that will standardize condition and then provide inspection and appraisal services with a guarantee. Similar to CGC for comics, or auto appraisals.

So, the company would send someone to look at the game to rate it (or have local people certified to act as appraisers for the company) and then provide a certificate for that condition valid for a set period or until the game is sold / changes hands and maintaining an ownership paper trail. Providence, essentially.

Sounds like a terribly unprofitable business given the size of the collection community though!

ORIGINAL, WELL MAINTAINED and UNRESTORED condition. scratches, wear, bumps are accepted.

71 Mustang is not a "muscle car"

When it's a 429 Cobra Jet Mach 1 it sure as hell is.

Do tell

Must be thinking 1981?

Mustang was actually a "pony car". But we've been here before....

The first search I did on the internet told me "Can Pony Cars be Muscle Cars? Absolutely."
That's all that's needed to be considered a fact these days."

It is true. But even with that the muscle car era came to an end after 1970 when compression ratios and HP dropped dramatically. That is debatable too, when compared to cars that came later.

I by no means imply that there aren't mustangs that are muscle cars, just not between 1970 and 1985

Gotcha.

I was just responding to o-din's post.

Truth is on the internet it seems that there is no true timeline to the end of the era. Some say 1973. But it was always 1970 that was the last year of the real monsters.

I think HUO means home use only, not gently routed and then used in a home. I also believe NOS means new old stock, not removed from a machine and stored a long time. These terms are as certain as the words that make them.

Yes one would think that...but in reality doesn't work that way

You mean not nitrous oxide?

1970 was the start of an incremental decline in power, the 1970 LS6 Chevelle and the Stage III GSX had won the horsepower contest and ruined it for everyone. There is much debate to the end and the switch from gross to net hp ratings adds confusion but, in 1974 a 455 Trans Am had 250HP and by 1978 the fastest American vehicle produced was the 225hp 360 Lill red Express Dodge pickup, it only existed through an emission law exemption. In 1985 the H.O. 5.0 Mustang was 210 h.p. .
If I would be afraid to race it in street trim, with a 85 5.0 H.O. 4speed Mustang it may well be, a Muscle car.

That is N.O.S. (Nitrous Oxide Systems) a brand name, you know that though.

In reality, the true meaning of words, have to be accepted or, we are just bumbling in unreal fantasy land. We can't just apply word and terms that are commonly used and convenient, but untrue. Either a machine was only used in a home, or homes or it was not. It may have been stored carelessly, moved frequently and carelessly but it it was only used in a home, it is then Home use only. If it was purchased NIB used in a Bar for 30 days then taken home it is not HUO. Only means only or we have nothing as a society.

If it involves a Demolition Man, it needs to have the seal of approval from 9 out of 10 pinsiders after they have had the chance to inspect Stallone's junk.