(Topic ID: 280088)

Opinions - cheating or legit?

By RTS

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 17 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by mbeardsley
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

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Linked Games

Topic poll

“Opinions - cheating or legit?”

  • Fair - keep playing 18 votes
    67%
  • Unfair - pause game and remove balls 5 votes
    19%
  • Depends on the game. (Woz no. AF, AFM, SM okay) 4 votes
    15%

(Multiple choice - 27 votes)

#1 3 years ago

Had a game on Woz while during multiball the Winkie drop popped up trapping two balls behind it, both leaning on the backside of the drop target, unable to roll into the VUK.

At first it seemed legit since the game was performing all functions correctly, and the opportunity for this to happen is available to every player similar to dirty pool that occurs by design on AFM, SM, and AF.

I did eventually bump the target, creating a newton ball rebound to move the top ball into the vuk, while the other remained behind the target. Eventually I hit the target again, rebounding the remaining ball into the VUK, and everything was back to normal.

I recall a game on IM when the monger wedged ball beneath it while it was lowering during mb, and this was clearly an unfair beneficial malfunction.

I've also been told it's a legit move if you are quick enough to trap a weak shot with a diverter on a ramp in Shadow during mb.

Other games like TSPP are clearly designed so a ball can never get trapped behind the targets

Balls getting trapped behind a retractable target - what's the consensus opinion?

Fair, cheating, or depends on the game?

#2 3 years ago

That's a stuck ball that must be freed.
Same thing as it being stuck anywhere...on a pop bumper, one a switch, behind the AFM target back etc

EDIT: Not true on AFM, see dirty pool below.

#3 3 years ago

Fair. It's only pinball.

#4 3 years ago

If you are playing by yourself, who cares. I will usually keep playing until it drains or I'm able to clear it within normal play.

If you are in a tournament this is a no no and you need to clear it ASAP and/or notify the TD.

If you are playing your buddy for money, then ask him to go get you a beer or distract him long enough for you to get some advantage out of it. If he catches you, just play dumb.

#5 3 years ago

It's only cheating if you get caught.

#6 3 years ago

It's pinball so it's fair game!

#7 3 years ago

I believe IFPA states if the game has this as a feature(ie Dirty pool on AFM) it is allowed. An instance such as this would not be afaik

#8 3 years ago

Fair, Pins can be evil at times, so it's Karma. I am looking at you TWD.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

dirty pool that occurs by design on AFM, SM, and AF.

This is the key. According to the PAPA tournament rules, “ In multiball, some games offer the opportunity to stick a ball in an area that can only be freed if the player uses another ball to free it. Examples include getting a ball stuck behind a visor on games including Attack From Mars, Jackbot and Spider-Man. The ruling in this situation is based on whether the game has software written into it to specifically address the mode or situation.”

https://papa.org/wp-content/uploads/PAPA_IFPA-Complete-Competition-Rules-1.pdf

#wizard-of-oz has no software role to specifically address your described situation, therefore it’s a stuck ball. Trap up and call the TD to address the stuck ball.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

This is the key. According to the PAPA tournament rules, “ In multiball, some games offer the opportunity to stick a ball in an area that can only be freed if the player uses another ball to free it. Examples include getting a ball stuck behind a visor on games including Attack From Mars, Jackbot and Spider-Man. The ruling in this situation is based on whether the game has software written into it to specifically address the mode or situation.”
https://papa.org/wp-content/uploads/PAPA_IFPA-Complete-Competition-Rules-1.pdf
Wizard of Oz has no software role to specifically address your described situation, therefore it’s a stuck ball. Trap up and call the TD to address the stuck ball.

Thanks for the clarification!

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

The ruling in this situation is based on whether the game has software written into it to specifically address the mode or situation.”

This makes total sense. Does the same rule apply to trapping a ball with a diverter on Shadow?

It's clearly a skill move for a player to catch a ball on a ramp with a diverter, but there is no specific code written into the game to support the maneuver.

Consistent to the stated PAPA tournament rules, a "diverter catch" should also not be allowed, although such a move would clearly demonstrate one's skill and reward the player.

#12 3 years ago

Shadow catch is allowed, same as a ball trapped under an upper flipper. The player used skill to trap it and it's not 'stuck' bc the player can release it

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

Consistent to the stated PAPA tournament rules, a "diverter catch"

I agree with davjoszie - The Shadow diverter catch is tournament legal.
Same document, four paragraphs above my earlier quote, “ In situations where a ball is trapped in a way that it can be released through player action other than shaking or bumping – for example, a ball at rest underneath a flipper or any other mechanism which the player controls – this is not deemed to be a stuck ball. Balls trapped in this fashion during multiball modes are not generally considered to be a rules violation, although the ruling will depend on the exact machine and situation.”

Of course if you’re playing at home or not using PAPA or IFPA rules you can do whatever you like. My advice is be consistent. If you’re having tournaments, experienced players will appreciate having any deviations from the “official” rules noted somewhere accessible to all players. A post-it note on the game is helpful.

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

I agree with davjoszie - The Shadow diverter catch is tournament legal.
Same document, four paragraphs above my earlier quote, “ In situations where a ball is trapped in a way that it can be released through player action other than shaking or bumping – for example, a ball at rest underneath a flipper or any other mechanism which the player controls – this is not deemed to be a stuck ball. Balls trapped in this fashion during multiball modes are not generally considered to be a rules violation, although the ruling will depend on the exact machine and situation.”
Of course if you’re playing at home or not using PAPA or IFPA rules you can do whatever you like. My advice is be consistent. If you’re having tournaments, experienced players will appreciate having any deviations from the “official” rules noted somewhere accessible to all players. A post-it note on the game is helpful.

Good info. Makes sense.

#15 3 years ago

It is a stuck ball. It will clear when the other balls drain. The game will then do a ball search and release the ball. That is if you have not already dropped the target.

#16 3 years ago

In the old days, the unwritten rule was that you should try to free the stuck ball by shooting at it. Still can't free it after several shots? Cradle up and call the TD over.

The irony of the new rule is that stuck balls often happen to less experienced players and a lot of the time, they don't even notice (usually happens during multiball), let alone try to exploit the stuck ball. Sucks to have to tell a noob in league that technically they're cheating mid-ball. The fact that they could exploit the stuck ball never enters their mind, whether they know the ball is stuck or not. They're just trying to keep whatever balls are in front of them in play. I usually don't say anything. Explain it to them after the ball ends.

#17 3 years ago

This discussion reminds me of what happened to me during qualifying for PAPA 2 - a long time ago. Data East's HOOK had just been released, and hardly anyone had even seen it yet (and back then there was no internet videos to learn all about a new release).

I started up the game for my qualifying round (I was one of the first dozen or so players), and when I launched the ball, it immediately went underneath a bumper rubber at the back of the machine. As I was trying to figure out what was going on, it went through a very short ball search, and then served another ball to the plunger.

It didn't seem right to me, though I wasn't sure, so I called over the "judge" (who was Steve Epstein - though at that time to me he was just "the guy in charge"). I explained what happened and he said "oh, that's just a ball lock - keep playing". So I did.

After another ball or so, it was clear that the machine was totally confused about what ball(s) were in play or not. So I called Steve back over and he agreed that something was wrong (I don't think that early code on Hook handled stuck balls very well). He said that I could continue on with my game and they would address it for the next player, or I could abandon this game and start another after they fixed it.

I didn't think that I had done very well (though I wasn't really sure since I had no idea what a good score was on that game), so I said that I would abandon the game. It turned out to be a very good choice, as on my new game I scored 128 million and this was the main reason I qualified for the finals.

This was the first tournament that I had ever played in. Of course, in the playoffs I got paired against Rick Stetta, Dallas Overturf, and Roger Sharpe and got my ass kicked, but it was certainly a blast.

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