(Topic ID: 43114)

Opinions about P3...Why no excitement?


By Cheeks

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by sven
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    There are 83 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    The playfield layout will always be identical. So 5 different games is still pretty much the same core game

    No, the layouts won't be identical. The upper module with the ramps and such can be removed and replaced with different modules for different layouts. That's one of the things that's so cool about it.

    #52 6 years ago

    I really feel this concept will live or die by the quality of software/theme they incorporate into it, particularly out of the gate. I attended their seminar at PPE and it's a clever piece of tech with wild possibilities.

    Seeing their demo of the machine playing itself, I think it would be great if a pinbot visor shield opened up to reveal a set of flippers and you had to battle the game - like a boss battle.

    #53 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    No it's really 1 physical game with different stuff on the LCD.

    You really need to go to the seminar, this is NOT what it is. It is interchangeable, and you are buying a platform. You can swap many, many things.

    You do prove my point that another model that is more advanced is needed as people need to see and understand this aspect. It is 2 for 1 and not a shrek/family guy thing.

    Quoted from sb80:

    I prefer the pins in your collection minus one.

    Now you got me curious? My guess? XM (my only Stern) 2nd Guess TOTAN (Many people don't like the rules)

    #54 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    What color was the pill? And again, would you trade MB for P3 or spend 10K? I havent said anything negative about this machine period, just asking.

    You ignored my questions, why should I answer your irrelevant one?

    ...but I will humor you.

    -I wouldn't trade MB for anything. Am I allowed to keep it and buy something else?

    -Asking me if I'd spend 10k on P3 is asking me if I'd spend 'x' on P2K. It's a platform. Would I spend 'x' on RFM? Yes, because I like that game. Would I spend 'x' on SWep1? No, cuz I don't like that game. The point of this thread - excitement about P3. Yes, I'm excited, cuz I think it's an innovative evolution of the physical game of pinball...yes, physical, a fact you seem to be convincing yourself isn't true. You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.

    -I cannot say if I will buy it, as I haven't seen a finished game yet. I only own one P2K game - RFM, cuz I love it as a GAME....the platform is cool, but it's the game I like at the end of the day. I think the JJP platform is cool, but I cancelled my WOZ order because I didn't like the GAME when I played it. Maybe the next one. I think the P3 platform is cool...I'll decide to buy it when I play an actual game on it.

    #55 6 years ago

    Can't afford one (and even if I had the extra scratch laying around I would likely put it towards other hobbies (why does everything have to be so damn expensive!?!?)), but I am eager to see where this tech goes over the long-term.

    They should go full epileptic mode and build an add-on that puts a P2K head on the game and uses both the interactive PF and the 3D overlay from P2K . Doubt it's possible with patents, but if you have an open source programming from the community, who's to say there wouldn't be a DIY write-up out there after base model release and full code to implement into your P3 pin

    #56 6 years ago

    It's obvious from this thread that the P3 platform is being misunderstood by many. So far we have only been shown the tools that the platform can use but not much of how the games will use them. I think that the demos like Farmyard and Asteroids showed the tracking technology well but also made it look like that was the main gameplay element which a lot of people don't like, including me. Thankfully, I've actually read and listened to the P3 guys' intentions and plans and everything they've said is spot on and makes me very excited. They know what it is that people love about pinball but they are open to changing any part of that if it makes sense to do it.

    Right now we need to see some visualisation of what a finished game might look, sound and play like so pinheads can compare it to classic pinball. Unfortunately many people see a prototype and take it at face value rather than filling in the gaps imaginatively. Dennis Nordman's presentations hopefully will help show the connection between this new platform and pinball as we know and love currently.

    #57 6 years ago
    Quoted from krupa:

    No, the layouts won't be identical. The upper module with the ramps and such can be removed and replaced with different modules for different layouts. That's one of the things that's so cool about it.

    I understand that but changing the upper 30% of a playfield doesnt change the experience all that much.

    #58 6 years ago

    I'm not sure why you think that Pinchroma. I guess we'll see soon enough. I am a bit worried about the bottom half being the same for every module. I'm thinking perhaps there could be parts of that that could be changed like adding a post and a rubber here or there just to change the way it bounce around down there to stop it becoming too predictible.

    Also, I'm wondering whether it will be possible to have a third flipper or is every module going to be limited to a fan layout.

    #59 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    I understand that but changing the upper 30% of a playfield doesnt change the experience all that much.

    It's more than the upper 30% of the playfield. The module that is replaced is the upper 30% sure, but you could have many things attached to that that hover over the lower playfield. You could have ramps that are attached to the upper playfield that exit on the lower playfield. That whole thing could be part of the detachable module. But if you look at most games, the differences are almost all entirely in the upper playfield. This could include added flippers, ramps, toys, etc. I think this accounts for the majority of the uniqueness of the playfield. In fact, almost all of Hulk LE could have been done using this model.

    Then you take ultra creative designers like Dennis Nordman who has never used the same ideas twice, and you give him this platform and say "make something unique each time, but you can only change the upper section of the playfield". I guarantee he'll come up with unique things for us to play. I'm totally thrilled for the release of this platform.

    #60 6 years ago

    Can't afford one right now, but excited about this project. Might have joined if I had not signed up already for Nemo and Predator. With so many new projects on the way (add Full Throttle, BHZA, WOZ, Hobbit...) there might not be enough collectors ready to jump on all these pins. But P3 has something special, really. Eager to play one someday!

    #61 6 years ago
    Quoted from Cheeks:

    At $10K they are expensive, but that gets you 2 upper playfield layouts, which they describe as 2 separate games. Future add-on games seem cheap too. Why isn't anyone excited?

    My concern is how they are going to pull off this modular upper playfield concept while not making portions of the game look or feel "generic." P2K ran into this issue with the cabinet art - and in my opinion made the right call by creating original game specific art for each title.

    I guess if each upper playfield has its own artwork, it could work, but then the lower playfield would have to have generic art, while the display shows game specific art. Then there's the issue of multiple software packages for the same upper playfield... Maybe the concept of unique themes is not the goal here.

    That said, I think we can all agree it's a creative concept that hasn't been done yet, so I'm definitely keeping track of the progress.

    -BB

    #62 6 years ago
    Quoted from chocky909:

    I think that the demos like Farmyard and Asteroids showed the tracking technology well but also made it look like that was the main gameplay element which a lot of people don't like, including me.

    Have to agree. It takes a bit of imagination to see the full potential at this point. And from a marketing perspective, it's never a good idea to count on the public's imagination. Hopefully they're far enough along now that more people will "get it" after TPF.

    Quoted from chocky909:

    Also, I'm wondering whether it will be possible to have a third flipper or is every module going to be limited to a fan layout.

    I'm wondering the same. Hopefully that will be answered soon.

    #63 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    People here bitch if stern uses a similar layout for 2 different games even with a retheme and different software. Could you imagine the exact same layout, base artwork, etc with the only variance being what's shown on the LCD? I can see the witch hunt now.

    My thoughts as well, a very cool concept but I personally like the way pinball is now with the innovations that everybody is doing....maybe when themes are announced etc. this will look better to me but I don't see how like changing out the upper play field can dramatically change the artwork, feel of the game etc. other than what's show on the LCD and with so many pins integrating rails from the upper to the lower how is that going to affect flow?

    Plugging in an upper play field and having the software change on the LCD is what make it somewhat "like" a video game....with a playstation obviously you get a whole new everything with you pop in Resident Evil or NBA...with P3 the box itself will always be an integral part of the play which makes it less appealing to me....

    But, like with every other project I pre order I'm open to a change of mind!

    #64 6 years ago

    I'm excited alright, but I think indeed it's hard to picture the opportunities in our minds. I really like the idea of different playfield-modules, just like I like the 'playfield switching-idea' of Heighway Pinball. P3 will be less expensive (entire playfield with flippers, targets, etc vs. part of the playfield without the flippers, part of the (side) targets), not sure how much the difference will be. I like both ideas: entire new games and software vs entire new software, different use of the monitor with ball-tracking(really cool!) and partly new layout. Both seem very fun to me: P3 is more innovative, for some a good thing, for others less welcome. For myself? I'll patiently wait what they'll come up with and I'll judge them when I see them! (And make a final judgement when I've played them multiple times).

    #65 6 years ago

    I said since the moment I saw the first P3 video that it had the potential to be a game changer. I can't wait to see the finished product.

    -1
    #66 6 years ago

    I got into buying machines because of the fond memories I had as a youth.
    I am not really interested in a video screen in/as the playfield - I can bring up pinball arcade on the xbox for a video pinball experience.

    I really enjoy the purely mechanical aspect of pinball - the "Rat in a maze" aspect of the ball traveling different places through ramps, doors, holes etc ....

    #67 6 years ago
    Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

    I am not really interested in a video screen in/as the playfield - I can bring up pinball arcade on the xbox for a video pinball experience.

    I really enjoy the purely mechanical aspect of pinball - the "Rat in a maze" aspect of the ball traveling different places through ramps, doors, holes etc ....

    It is interesting how some are against the very idea of a video screen no matter the incorporation. I see this with P2K as well. And that's cool. We all have our preferences.

    P3 seems very "mechanical" to me. It has all the ramps, doors, and holes that you mention. Actually, I think it's the only new machine that has ball going under the playfield. I could be wrong though. And I have no idea what Jpop's up to.

    #68 6 years ago

    To me, the P3 is where the only true innovation in pinball is occurring. The ball tracking technology essentially turns the middle of the playfield into a giant iPad, using the ball as the stylus instead of your finger.

    I can imagine endless possibilites like animated, moving arrows showing you where to shoot, or a "covered" playfield where you have to use the ball to wipe away the "sand" to discover archaeological artifacts, or a completely random moving target you've got to hit in under 5 seconds.

    Yes, the lower playfield will be the same, but the upper can be anything from a simple field of pop bumpers, to a swarm of interconnected ramps and forms. If you look at how the slings are cantilevered off the apron, there's nothing saying you couldn't bolt an upper playfield feature's support onto a side of the lower playfield.

    Combine that modular flexibility with the endless variation from the software/rules/art side, and you've got the ability to have a ton of variety in one package.

    I for one can't wait!

    Later,
    EV

    #69 6 years ago

    I totally agree with the comment about the early demos (Farmyard, etc) doing as much good as harm in the minds of people's perception. These were amazing in showing the ball tracking abilities, but also were just proof-of-concepts and made people associate this to virtual pinball.

    I'm somewhere between Alex and Markmon about the impact that changing the upper playfield will have on making the games feel different. I hope Mark is right about things connected to the top that potentially hang lower on the playfield. This would help to keep every game from having nothing but long, full-playfield shots.

    The ball tracking is super cool, and supplementing play with the virtual targets on the playfield screen can be a nice addition, but if too much relies on that, it will lose the feel of real pinball. Anything that could add some physical interruption on the lower playfield would really complete the full circle on this.

    That said, the individually controlled barrier/scoops at the top of the LCD have tons of potential as well.

    Oh, and the variable flipper power, that could be super cool. Imagine something like the Borg battle in STTNG, where you need to hit the spinner to re-power the shields. What if this concept impacted the flipper power as you lose strength for a certain mode.

    As many have said, there appears to be all the potential in the world, it will really come down to creative uses of this technology and how well they can implement the strategies.

    #70 6 years ago
    Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

    I got into buying machines because of the fond memories I had as a youth.

    This, I understand.

    I am not really interested in a video screen in/as the playfield - I can bring up pinball arcade on the xbox for a video pinball experience.
    I really enjoy the purely mechanical aspect of pinball - the "Rat in a maze" aspect of the ball traveling different places through ramps, doors, holes etc ....

    This, I don't. It's still an entirely normal physical machine with all the same ball travel/action on ramps and such.

    Lots of people seem to be only thinking of it as "video in the pinball" -- completely ignoring the fact that the whole surface is any multitude of switches. More correctly, it's a dynamic interactive playfield. Not "video"

    #71 6 years ago

    Let me clear up my comments - I don't really care for the marriage of pinball and video games.
    Never liked the Pinball 2000 games and could care less about the video display on the WOZ machine.

    It may turn out to be a really fun machine and attract a lot of new players, but I am old school I guess.

    #72 6 years ago

    I'm excited for P3!!! Depending on my bonus this year, I might even then have enough saved up to consider a pre-order. (if I don't get lucky and win one at TPF)

    Besides the infinite possibilities of ball-tracking and on-the-fly interactive flipper power to completely revolutionize what the REAL PHYSICAL ROLLING ball does as it ROLLS across the playfield screen, I love how it draws my kids into the joy of pinball. I may buy it for this reason alone.

    Looking forward to seeing it at TPF!

    #73 6 years ago

    Do these help with visualization any?

    Some notes:
    1. These aren't meant to say "look, you can remake these classics with a P3" -- the idea is to just to try to illustrate how much of the main area of an open playfield design is very similar to the P3

    2. The blue lines are arbitrary - that's not necessarily where the wall/scoop separation on a P3 is exactly, it's just meant to show "Look, all the necessary mechanical business is above here"

    3. While I understand a plain acrylic "wall" doesn't LOOK exactly like a molded troll head, the function is still the same. Something that pops up, that you can bang a ball off of.

    You could draw all the same inserts on the P3 screen and have them blink -- or you can do things that are a lot more dynamic and interesting.

    Theatre_of_Magic.jpg Cactus_Canyon.jpg Medieval_Madness.jpg Attack_from_Mars.jpg

    #74 6 years ago

    With open ended shareware we will see some interesting games. Reminds me of little big planet, they give you a game that shows what can be done but the limitation is our imaginations...well on the software side. I liked that all the games settings and tests are visible on the screen its got a built in level with audible tone when you find level so you dont have to crank the leg look at level crank some more look now you just crank it till you here the sound telling you its level.

    #75 6 years ago

    For any that missed it, here are some seminars from PPE 2012, including the P3.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/hwh6k?feature=watch

    Judging by the number of views, they need to hire Tim Arnold as their pitch man.

    Lousy overhead cam in the P3, JJP and Gomez seminars was provided by me. I brought it for my own seminar but then several people asked to use it as well. Had I known further in advance, I would have sprung for the high def setup. Oh well.

    #76 6 years ago

    I really need to find time to buy and play around with P-ROC. This could be the thing that draws my son into pinball.

    #77 6 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    I really need to find time to buy and play around with P-ROC. This could be the thing that draws my son into pinball.

    I see you're right up in Lawrenceville. I'm in Bethlehem, and I'm an avid P-ROC developer, feel free to send me a message or ask any questions about it. It's a great system.

    #78 6 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    For any that missed it, here are some seminars from PPE 2012, including the P3.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/hwh6k?feature=watch
    Judging by the number of views, they need to hire Tim Arnold as their pitch man.
    Lousy overhead cam in the P3, JJP and Gomez seminars was provided by me. I brought it for my own seminar but then several people asked to use it as well. Had I known further in advance, I would have sprung for the high def setup. Oh well.

    Well, at least MrHardSausage is a fan.

    #79 6 years ago

    Not excited because I don;t really get excited aboot things that aren't out yet.

    #80 6 years ago

    From my perspective it is a dev tool at this stage. The general public can't get excited about it much more beyond discussing what it could, potentially, be used for. Like being excited about the latest features of UnrealEd or Photoshop.

    It's up to the pinball designers and developers to come up with something utilizing the tech that will make people excited. Not so much generate excitement for the tool itself.

    #81 6 years ago
    Quoted from chocky909:

    Right now we need to see some visualisation of what a finished game might look, sound and play like so pinheads can compare it to classic pinball.

    Agreed - that's the next step, or set of steps. We couldn't do that prior to announcing themes.

    Bear in mind that this is a process. It started 4 years ago when I came up with the initial concept and designed the P-ROC:

    Early ball tracking concept... check
    P-ROC... check
    Software framework (co-developed with Adam Preble)... check
    Full ball tracking implementation... check
    Serial driver boards... check
    P3 - proto 1... check
    Serial RGB boards... check
    Serial switch boards... check
    P3 - proto 2... check
    Get feedback at shows (PPE, Expo, Houston, SXSW)... check
    Hire an experienced game designer (Nordman)... check
    Engage an artist... check
    Release early concept art... (next week @ TPF)
    Fill in staffing gaps (sound/music, more software, more mechanical, marketing, etc)
    Develop game concepts... check
    P3 - proto 3 w/ full backbox/translite... in process
    Game development... in process
    Back end logistics (too many to list)... preparations being made

    Until now, it's all been about the technology and building a playable demo game. Now it's all about the end product (theme, cabinet, artwork, sound/music, etc). Just remember this doesn't all happen instantly. The good news is that the game design process is well understood by veterans like Dennis. That's not to say it's easy or that success is guaranteed, but the process is understood. Contrast that with what we've done up to this point, much of which had never done before.

    There will likely still be some confusion after TPF. We're announcing themes, but our proto machines are still tech demos. Unfortunately there's no way to avoid that without disappearing for the next 6-12 months and reappearing with completed games, but we won't do that. As we progress on game dev, the end product and more of our vision will become clearer. Until then, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

    - Gerry
    http://www.multimorphic.com

    #82 6 years ago
    Quoted from krupa:

    Actually, I think it's the only new machine that has ball going under the playfield. I could be wrong though. And I have no idea what Jpop's up to.

    Full Throttle has that as well.

    #83 6 years ago
    Quoted from gstellenberg:

    Agreed - that's the next step, or set of steps. We couldn't do that prior to announcing themes.
    Bear in mind that this is a process. It started 4 years ago when I came up with the initial concept and designed the P-ROC:
    Early ball tracking concept... check
    P-ROC... check
    Software framework (co-developed with Adam Preble)... check
    Full ball tracking implementation... check
    Serial driver boards... check
    P3 - proto 1... check
    Serial RGB boards... check
    Serial switch boards... check
    P3 - proto 2... check
    Get feedback at shows (PPE, Expo, Houston, SXSW)... check
    Hire an experienced game designer (Nordman)... check
    Engage an artist... check
    Release early concept art... (next week @ TPF)
    Fill in staffing gaps (sound/music, more software, more mechanical, marketing, etc)
    Develop game concepts... check
    P3 - proto 3 w/ full backbox/translite... in process
    Game development... in process
    Back end logistics (too many to list)... preparations being made
    Until now, it's all been about the technology and building a playable demo game. Now it's all about the end product (theme, cabinet, artwork, sound/music, etc). Just remember this doesn't all happen instantly. The good news is that the game design process is well understood by veterans like Dennis. That's not to say it's easy or that success is guaranteed, but the process is understood. Contrast that with what we've done up to this point, much of which had never done before.
    There will likely still be some confusion after TPF. We're announcing themes, but our proto machines are still tech demos. Unfortunately there's no way to avoid that without disappearing for the next 6-12 months and reappearing with completed games, but we won't do that. As we progress on game dev, the end product and more of our vision will become clearer. Until then, I'll try to answer any questions you have.
    - Gerry
    http://www.multimorphic.com

    Quite a list of already accomplished things and also enough to look forward to the next 12 months!
    Well, I'm looking forward to seeing more (concept-pics and/or info) about the game(s) the next week.

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