(Topic ID: 43114)

Opinions about P3...Why no excitement?


By Cheeks

6 years ago



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    #1 6 years ago

    So, I know P3 has a seminar coming up at TPF this weekend, and Dennis Nordman will be revealing more details about his theme. These games are a totally new concept with new technology, but there doesn't seem to be any buzz about them. The only recent excitement I saw was the opportunity for an attendee to win a free game, while not so much about the game and theme announcement.

    At $10K they are expensive, but that gets you 2 upper playfield layouts, which they describe as 2 separate games. Future add-on games seem cheap too. Why isn't anyone excited?

    I ask this mainly because I seem to be trying to talk myself into being excited. I'm really on the fence about getting on the pre-order, but I'm just not as excited as I should be for $10K. For example, I'm stoked about the likely Star Trek.

    So, are you excited? If not, why not? Is it because you don't trust in the technology yet? Is it because you need to know the theme(s) to get excited?

    #2 6 years ago

    For me it's strictly price.

    #3 6 years ago

    I am not. I have said it before in p3 topics, never got a response.

    But i am not excited cause i have no idea how the end product will look like. Plus i find the prototype cabinet just like something any lousy carpenter could make, nothing special.

    Dont like the shots, hate the cheap looking tubes. No poppers, no slings, just nothing but two boring tubes, some targets and a screen....

    But like i said, i have no idea how the end product will look like, so maybe some day i understand it and maybe then i like it.

    10.000 for this makes me never wanting this, even when i was a millionaire. Ridiculous.

    #4 6 years ago

    Very excited here. Most innovative development in pinball since RFM. So many possibilities for cool tables. I can't wait to see what Dennis came up with. But until we get a better idea of what the final software and playfields are like there's not a lot to talk about.

    #5 6 years ago

    These are quite expensive, cost of a both new Tron pro and a Predator.

    I know jpop has pre sold games for this price, but overall to me $10K is a hard sell.

    #6 6 years ago

    It's super expensive, but if it is the greatest pinball machine ever, I'll buy it.

    I also like that it is open source so others can code new games for it.

    #7 6 years ago

    I think for a lot of people, it's hard to see the final product in the prototype. It's just TOO different than anything pinball is right now. Which is kind of a shame, because the power that the system gives to game creators should be pretty incredible.

    High resolution interactive graphics right where you're always looking is going to be huge when there's "final" game applications on it. The full width channel of of dynamic scoops and walls allows for changing shot layouts for various modes. The rear sections can be all sorts of different physical layouts.

    Several really popular games don't make much use of the main middle playfield area for anything other than lamps (MM, AFM, etc) all the physicality of it is in the upper playfield. P3 can take all that space and do something dynamic with it. How about fighting something like the trolls in MM, but they can move around? Taking down an alien ship wouldn't be so easy when it doesn't stay in one place. And so on.

    #8 6 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    Several really popular games don't make much use of the main middle playfield area for anything other than lamps (MM, AFM, etc) all the physicality of it is in the upper playfield. P3 can take all that space and do something dynamic with it. How about fighting something like the trolls in MM, but they can move around? Taking down an alien ship wouldn't be so easy when it doesn't stay in one place. And so on.

    Well put. I've thought the same myself.

    #9 6 years ago

    I think you guys are missing the possibilities. Since I live in Austin, I've been fortunate enough to play all of the prototypes and watch the development from early on. Much has changed since the first prototype. The game has slings, tubes are going away, etc. I'm a believer and have pre-ordered. I firmly believe that the P^3 is going to be amazing. I can't wait for open source development and easily changeable upper modules. This thing will be similar enough to current pinball machines but the LCD and ball tracking enabled endless options that just don't exist with current pinball. I want it in my game room now.

    #10 6 years ago

    I think that this board has the biggest hangover ever after all of the new pinball company game announcements over the past couple of years. At this point, none of them have shipped, so its hard to get excited.

    -2
    #11 6 years ago

    It needed a head on it when I walked past at the expo. No head, no interest for me. I don't know why. Then whole white wood prototype thing just did not nail it for me. SO I kept walking

    #12 6 years ago
    Quoted from maddog14:

    It needed a head on it when I walked past at the expo. No head, no interest for me. I don't know why. Then whole white wood thing just did not nail it for me. SO I kept walking

    I used to be in the "Without a head it's just wrong" group - until I played it a bit at expo. Once you're playing, you don't care. It's odd.

    Gerry has said, though, that the final cabinet will have an optional backbox for those that want one.

    #13 6 years ago

    I've never gotten to play a prototype, and my days of preordering from a startup company and waiting on their production to finish for years are over for good.

    My biggest concern looking at the design is that they are overvaluing video as a pinball hook (this happened before somewhere, can't quite put my finger on it... ).

    There needs to be a serious mechanical hook in pinball, and besides the video in the playfield, what's the featured hook exactly? To me, it looks like a big wide open playfield and unfortunately your design is handicapped by nothing in the middle of the playfield in a huge area so the ball can make pretty pictures. That's a gimmick, not a hook.

    Full Throttle has video, but isn't relying on it. A fast flowing design, a small screen not handicapping design, the popup wheel bumpers being the hook. FT appeals to me more from first glance than P3 does.

    P3 looks very cool, but it needs more to it than a video gimmick IMHO! And $10k is going to rule a ton of people out.

    #14 6 years ago

    I would be more concerned about the 10k if they tell us each "module" will be like 3-4k. 10k is still a very steep barrier to entry for most of us. I'm looking foward to seeing it at TPF again, and seeing what Nordman's come up with. They really need to get a few very exited outsiders involved, because showing the demos running some windows-98 looking stuff just ain't very thrilling IMO.

    It's an interesting platform, a good start, but much like the Xbox, it's waiting on Halo to make it blow up.

    #15 6 years ago
    Quoted from mechslave:

    There needs to be a serious mechanical hook in pinball, and besides the video in the playfield, what's the featured hook exactly? To me, it looks like a big wide open playfield and unfortunately your design is handicapped by nothing in the middle of the playfield in a huge area so the ball can make pretty pictures. That's a gimmick, not a hook.

    It's not just "video in the playfield" though. The system knows where the ball is in that entire space. It's like a 100% dynamic array of possible shots.

    But the row of walls/scoops above the main section should count as a physical toy/hook anyway.

    #16 6 years ago

    All that exists right now is a tech demo. Once there is an actual game for it, you'll see more interest/excitement... Assuming it turns out to be good that is.

    10
    #17 6 years ago

    Thank for posting this, Cheeks. I appreciate everybody's feedback, both positive and negative.

    Without getting into too many specifics, let me give a little background for the choices we've made so far. Clearly our process has been almost exactly opposite to everybody else's. All of the other new MFG's started by announcing themes, and most have shown artwork. Theme & artwork are a *very* big part of the buying decision; so announcing them first makes perfect sense for them.

    However, announcing themes early did *not* make sense for us. We're introducing so many innovations (large LCD with ball tracking, floating flippers/slingshots, wall/scoop assembly, modular upper p/f) that we had to prove the concepts before moving forward. It didn't make sense to build an artistic cabinet, or backbox with translite, or beautiful playfield features until we were confident with our core technologies.

    So, we built prototypes and let people play them. The feedback, both inside and outside of pinball circles, has been very helpful and indicates a lot of people are genuinely excited about our concepts and paradigm. Now that our concepts have been proven and we've shown we can build functional pinball machines using them, it makes sense to start discussing themes and p/f designs. So, starting at TPF, that's what we're going to do.

    BTW - In addition to theme announcements, we'll be bringing our 3rd prototype machine, which shows off the modular p/f concept and *does* have a full backbox w/ translite. It's still an unthemed cab running our technology demo software, and it still uses our temporary tube system, but it also has some interesting surprises we're excited to reveal.

    Besides themes, one thing we'll be covering in more detail in our TPF seminar is price. Unfortunately it costs a lot to design and manufacture all of our new innovations. We understand the price is relatively high, but we make up for it in price-per-game. The current $9495 purchase price buys one machine w/ 2 games. Future game modules are expected to be in the $1k-1.5k range. So our initial price per game ($4748) is less than practically everybody else's, and future games are *significantly* less than that. Two games from the big guys cost anywhere from $13.5k-$20k. The same $13.5k could buy 5 P3-based games. $20k could buy 12 P3-based games, and of course you don't need to find floorspace for the additional games.

    Now we need to prove the game experience and fun factor are there... and unique for each game. Challenge accepted - stay tuned!

    - Gerry
    http://www.multimorphic.com

    #18 6 years ago
    Quoted from gstellenberg:

    The current $9495 purchase price buys one machine w/ 2 games. Future game modules are expected to be in the $1k-1.5k range.

    That's actually very encouraging. I was expecting a lot higher on the modules, but if I could actually get ahold of a base game, that would make modules affordable.

    #19 6 years ago

    I'm excited about P3! Love the concept & and it feels and plays great. ...however, like most - I want to see how it will look as a finished product...if the art and animation on the screen (such a huge feature) will be "next gen", polished, and professional. Honestly I think this is the biggest hurdle for ANY next-gen pin using a color LCD display in any capacity.

    #20 6 years ago

    Nordman designing the first game. This should excite everyone I would think. I'm in.

    #21 6 years ago

    Am I correct to assume that the games/modules are not limited to pre-order. In other words when they are out people will be able to buy them?

    -3
    #22 6 years ago

    Doesnt really seem like a pinball machine to me. More of a video game, IMO. Personally I like the traditional playfield art and at 10k I can get almost anything I want and thats not it. 5k, maybe its worth looking at.

    #23 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    Doesnt really seem like a pinball machine to me. More of a video game, IMO. .

    it's P2K-ignorance all over again.... There's nothing "video game" about it. There's no joystick. There's no video mode. It's pure pinball with real flippers, balls, ramps, targets, etc etc etc. Think of the screen as a giant insert that interacts with the ball.

    -6
    #24 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    it's P2K-ignorance all over again.... Think of the screen as a giant insert that interacts with the ball.

    P3 is a video game, if youre happy more power to you but its still a video game.

    #25 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    P3 is a video game, if youre happy more power to you but its still a video game.

    I don't see that at all
    Virtual pins yes
    P3 no

    #26 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    P3 is a video game, if youre happy more power to you but its still a video game.

    WOZ is a video game.

    #27 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    P3 is a video game, if youre happy more power to you but its still a video game.

    How many videogames use flippers, ramps, scoops, slings, drop targets and a pinball?

    #28 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    P3 is a video game, if youre happy more power to you but its still a video game.

    ...except its not. You do realize there's a real ball, right? Real flippers? Real slings? Realy ramps? Real targets? Real scoops? The ball rolls over a screen embedded in the playfield. How is that a video game?

    Your CV is more of a video game with its various video modes that turn the playfield dark and force you to play the screen. The screen on P3's playfield is an interactive insert/toy on a REAL pinball machine.

    If you continue this lie, you're being willfully ignorant.

    -2
    #29 6 years ago
    Quoted from tamoore:

    WOZ is a video game.

    No, its a pinball machine with an LCD screen in the backbox. No floating slingshots and a playfield made of wood. Not to mention were seeing all the trouble JJ is having using an LCD screen as a display, what happens when 80% of the playfield is an LCD screen meant to "interact" with the ball. Its a pinball video game and theres nothing wrong with that just not my thing.

    #30 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    Its a pinball video game and theres nothing wrong with that just not my thing.

    Clearly logic and reason isn't your thing either lol. P3 is a real pinball machine.

    A pinball video game is when I play Pinball Arcade on my iPhone.

    Why do you have an issue with the floating sling concept? Have you played it? It's a real sling with real strong kick! It's just engineered differently! Same with the floating flippers! They're so cool, and STRONG...felt like a Williams game! REAL pinball, baby!!!!

    -6
    #31 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Clearly logic and reason isn't your thing either lol. P3 is a real pinball machine.

    You might want to count your chromosomes, would you pay 10k? Would you trade MB for P3?

    #32 6 years ago

    I'm more excited about P3 and what's coming than anything in pinball right now. There's more innovation, great engineering, great design, and great concepts than we've seen in pinball in decades.

    I can't wait for my WoZ to show up, my BHZA, my Predator, all very excited to get and play 'til my fingers bleed. But, once my P3 arrives, the others I suspect will be very lonely until I have my fill of P3. And that could be a very long time with two full/different games shipping at launch and unlimited possibilities with open source and swappable playfields.

    --
    Rob Anthony
    Pinball Classics
    http://LockWhenLit.com
    Quality Board Work - In Home Service
    314-766-4587

    #33 6 years ago

    Let me chime in here for a second...

    If having an LCD *anywhere* in a playfield leads to "tons of problems" technology wise (JJP, Multimorphic or Heighway), then this industry is hard-up for engineers.

    The whole "Oh, its not pinball" thing has been said time and again (perhaps one should refer to Jpop's seminar on the pinball wave and how it comes in 'x' year cycles). Looks like we're seeing that here again. Regardless, I'm glad that people are trying new things for the game. Remember, years ago, I'm sure people said the same thing when Kordek was putting those flippers at funky orientations at the bottom of the playfield at Genco. It's real pinball. If it's not, please define pinball for us. If it has to have a backbox, then I guess cars with hard tops or convertibles aren't cars since they don't resemble the original Ford model cars.

    Regardless, the industry is brewing with possibilities again. Be thankful that you have much more of a choice where your money goes than you did years ago. I might not agree with *everything* that the new companies are bringing to the table, but damn, its good to see some competition again, and I love having a choice as to where my money goes.

    Let's enjoy it, and play some pinball.

    -- Jimmy

    -2
    #34 6 years ago

    Checked it out at PPE and it just seemed odd and out of place. A few curious onlookers but not a lot of interest. I felt kind of bad for the couple that were there to show it off.

    It seemed more video game than pinball.

    -1
    #35 6 years ago
    Quoted from PismoArcade:

    It seemed more video game than pinball.

    Dude you shouldnt say that in here. And saying its video game isnt an insult, just not a pinball machine. Its a pinball video game, nothing wrong with that...

    #36 6 years ago

    The P3 tech demo is the only machine with real innovation. From that standpoint it's very exciting. Just like anything I need to play it to see if its fun. Having Dennis on board is certainly a huge plus.

    #37 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    You might want to count your chromosomes, would you pay 10k? Would you trade MB for P3?

    So we're going into a price discussion now? That's irrelevant to your incorrect statement about it being a video game. Your claim that I have Down's Syndrome is also incorrect. What else would you like to be wrong about in this thread? Keep 'em comin'.

    I don't want to pay 10k for any pinball...but, there is something to be said about getting 2-games-in-1...makes that pill a little easier to swallow getting that type of extra value.

    #38 6 years ago

    i can see it having a lot of potential to evolve pinball significantly. The theme, sound, lights, and rules however are still crucial to a pin's success in addition to the technology used; all to say, we'll need to see more before there is mass enthusiasm for P3.

    #39 6 years ago
    Quoted from kmoore88:

    i can see it having a lot of potential to evolve pinball significantly. The theme, sound, lights, and rules however are still crucial to a pin's success in addition to the technology used; all to say, we'll need to see more before there is mass enthusiasm for P3.

    Exactly...but, if you use your imagination...you can really see the potential.

    -1
    #40 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    makes that pill a little easier to swallow

    What color was the pill? And again, would you trade MB for P3 or spend 10K? I havent said anything negative about this machine period, just asking.

    #41 6 years ago

    Sorry. Wasn't trying to be negative. Just my perspective.

    #42 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    P3 is a video game, if youre happy more power to you but its still a video game.

    Way to respond to rarehero's post that contained facts to back up his claim with no facts at all. As he said, it has real flippers, a real ball, real ramps, etc. It's a pinball machine. "p3 is a videogame" does not refute that lol.

    #43 6 years ago

    Honestly, I need to really see one to understand what it is, and then figure out how it works for me. From the technology that I have seen, I think it's really cool... but I don't get how the physical interaction will really work, and without understanding that it seems like a step backward from Pinball 2000 for me.

    I understand that probably isn't a fair example, but until it is somewhere that I can give it a shot, it seems like more of a cool tech demo and less of a cool game for the moment. To be fair, I think I would have said the exact same thing about PB2K back in the day.

    #44 6 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    Honestly, I need to really see one to understand what it is, and then figure out how it works for me. From the technology that I have seen, I think it's really cool... but I don't get how the physical interaction will really work, and without understanding that it seems like a step backward from Pinball 2000 for me.
    I understand that probably isn't a fair example, but until it is somewhere that I can give it a shot, it seems like more of a cool tech demo and less of a cool game for the moment. To be fair, I think I would have said the exact same thing about PB2K back in the day.

    Ummm, so P3 isn't planned to be at MGC then? What kinda craziness is that?

    Dan, meet Gerry, Gerry, Dan. Get 'er done guys!

    --
    Rob Anthony
    Pinball Classics
    http://LockWhenLit.com
    Quality Board Work - In Home Service
    314-766-4587

    #45 6 years ago

    If he wants to / can make it happen, I'm game. However, to be fair, it isn't like I'll have much time to give it a shot at the MGC...

    -1
    #46 6 years ago

    This is a pinball machine with an LCD screen that has video game modes. I like it. The playfield is art and its a real pinball machine. And I also think P3 looks cool, just more video game than pin. But I hope it does work for the P3 people.

    http://www.pinballnews.com/games/captainnemo/index3.html

    #47 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    Doesnt really seem like a pinball machine to me. More of a video game, IMO

    Actually if you really want to be technical, there really hasn't been a real "pin"ball since the 1930's. The closest I have seen to pins in a machine are posts and they are different than the actual "pins" in a real pinball.

    Once the technology becomes the norm, then it officially becomes a "pinball machine".

    As evolution of the "pin"ball goes on, what we expect a pinball to have should also change. I remember the evolution of DMD's in pins and how many purists were against it. Video modes were considered trying to make a hybrid of the pin.

    I have watched, played and gone to the P3 seminars. I really look at the playfield as a more interactive playfield rather than a video game. An interactive playfield gives more options for modes and shots and the technology of this is incredible.

    It falls short right now because people are seeing a "whitewood" tech demo now. Once a proto comes along with artwork, rule sets, theme, and people get a chance to play it without having to use their imagination, then there will be excitement. Right now I think the project is too much in its infancy.

    #48 6 years ago
    Quoted from sb80:

    This is a pinball machine with an LCD screen that has video game modes. I like it. The playfield is art and its a real pinball machine. And I also think P3 looks cool, just more video game than pin. But I hope it does work for the P3 people.

    I realize I am not going to change your mind, but that is the same thing. Both have big LCD's in the middle of the playfield. The reason you don't see art on the P3 right now is because it is a whitewood.

    The ONLY difference in the 2 different LCD's is the P3 LCD is interactive, and the Nemo is static. I'm sure the P3 can do that, but I don't know why they would do that. That would be like having a DMD keep score and not show animations like the pre-DMD LED display machines. When you do that, you get the "Pin" that Stern is trying to sell.

    -1
    #49 6 years ago
    Quoted from jimjim66:

    I realize I am not going to change your mind, but that is the same thing. Both have big LCD's in the middle of the playfield. The reason you don't see art on the P3 right now is because it is a whitewood.

    The ONLY difference in the 2 different LCD's is the P3 LCD is interactive, and the Nemo is static. I'm sure the P3 can do that, but I don't know why they would do that. That would be like having a DMD keep score and not show animations like the pre-DMD LED display machines. When you do that, you get the "Pin" that Stern is trying to sell.

    Fair enough. But maybe Im old school at 32 but I prefer the pins in your collection minus one. The playfields are drawn like comic books and theres plenty of 3D animation. Its the art I prefer.

    #50 6 years ago

    As an open source developer I welcome this (the fact it's open from what I have heard) but the piece that gets me is 2 games for 10k. No it's really 1 physical game with different stuff on the LCD. The playfield layout will always be identical. So 5 different games is still pretty much the same core game.

    People here bitch if stern uses a similar layout for 2 different games even with a retheme and different software. Could you imagine the exact same layout, base artwork, etc with the only variance being what's shown on the LCD? I can see the witch hunt now.

    What made p2k interesting was the playfield was the module and a small piece of software. Take that modularity away and it becomes redundant to play the same exact playfield over and over regardless of what's displayed.

    I think it's cool as hell personally.

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