Well....we all have to walk on eggshells now, so he didn't want to offend anyone. Oh wait, now you're offended, what do we do now?!

I suggest he click "unhide this post".

I know

We note the point it can go too far

I did'nt even know who Bowen was until I googled his name....I play pinball at my house and on location, I don't give a shit about tournaments or expos.....he is just another pinsider, no more no less

Uh oh, you're gonna be in trouble young man!

_{Post edited by RonB: But it's ok with me!}

Bowen, does this post in another thread at 02:24 GMT on January 3, 2014 meet with your approval or should it be tilted?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-usa-refund-still-want-the-game?tu=mnpinball

Thanks for pointing that out, I missed that thread!

I think we are having two different discussions here, and it's important to make a distinction between them.

One of the discussions is centered around the opinion that "adult content should be out of sight".

The other discussion is about respect. Respect for each member of this community — new and old, active and inactive.

These two ideas are not mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible to have a respectful, open, welcoming community that features adult content — as long as that is an expectation set forth to the members.

In the case of Pinside, not only is that not a reasonable expectation, it's expressly condemned in the community guidelines:

UNLAWFUL, HARASSING, DEFAMATORY, ABUSIVE, THREATENING, HARMFUL, PORNOGRAPHIC, SEXUALLY ORIENTED, RACIALLY OFFENSIVE, PROFANE OR OTHERWISE OBJECTIONABLE MATERIAL IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
All the types of content above break these Community Rules. Please don't post it, or you may find that your account has been closed.

Posting and promoting adult content is not a shared ideal. It doesn't matter what you, or I, or the OP thinks. It is not something that everyone is OK with. It's not even something Pinside is OK with if you're going by these guidelines (and if nobody is, what's the point of them anyway).

But if your participation in this discussion is only centered around whether adult content is appropriate in the world/on Pinside/around children/in public forums, I need you to hear this:

You are participating at the surface level. You are neglecting a much larger, much deeper, much more difficult conversation. Don't.

Your personal views on adult content in public forums are irrelevant. Just like we are not coming together under the banner of discussing politics or religion, we are not coming together under the banner of adult content.

The real discussion here is about respect. People in this community are standing up and saying that a culture of disrespect is deeply endemic here. That others create an environment that is not welcoming through the words and actions that are tolerated here. NSFW images are only a small piece of that. They're a fraction of this issue.

It's not just a handful of people who are saying this. Many people are saying it. Many are saying that this is not a place they would recommend to others. Many people have abandoned Pinside because of it. You do not erase the validity of these statements by saying "no it's not, and lighten up".

Either this is a problem that is worthy of addressing and working through together, or Pinside is not a supportive, inclusive community. One or the other.

It's deeply endemic? It doesn't seem to be an issue in 95% of the threads. And who exactly isn't welcome? It seems to me everyone is welcome here. They can come and make up their own minds as to if this is a place they want to frequent or not. I found Pinside on a Google search and it has been more than accommodating and including. The community here is friendly, I have received help when I asked for it, and I try to give it when I can despite being a noob to the pinball world.

My wife also lurks on the forum and has not been offended by anything she has come across.

Look at all the questions and answers in these threads. People take the time to explain to noob like me how to do things, whats what... Hell, people even take the time to share pictures of how to do complicated teardowns or fixes. Saying Pinside is not supportive or inclusive is ignorant bullshit.

Can we please not turn this into a "Bash Bowen" thread?

Bowen posted a thoughtful opinion in the opening post, and concluded with the words, "Thanks for listening to my opinion." He then clarified that he hopes his opinion "carries just as much weight as anyone else's, and no more."

Robin soon responded, saying "Great points, Bowen. I can't say I disagree with your opinion..." but then said, "Again, as with many challenges, the answer lies in the power of the community. Instead of me and a small group of moderators dictating what is reasonable and what is not (which is pretty much un-doable with the sheer number of posts these days), the community should basically moderate itself in a way."

Unfortunately, people are now attacking or ridiculing Bowen personally. Yes, Bowen participates in pinball tournaments for money. Duh! Most current and former PAPA World Champions do. Nevertheless, he also does a lot of volunteer work for PAPA, providing color commentary during tournaments, and making helpful videos about gameplay strategies for specific pins. (I imagine there is other charity work that he performs that we'll never know about, just like with many other Pinside members.)

Bottom line: I'd rather have a Pinside WITH Bowen than WITHOUT Bowen, and if this "Bash Bowen" trend continues, he may just leave altogether, like several of his friends have already done.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

@ Razorbak86

Do you not see the irony of a post calling out sexism on an internet forum that is based on the presupposition that women are weak emotionally fragile individuals that are incapable of thinking for themselves and making their own decisions? That they need a bunch of men to be offended on their behalf and save them from the horrors of the internet?

The irony of his own words seem to be completely lost on him and those posting in support, hence the mockery and ridicule.

What makes you say that? Because you don't see it? Saying something is a risky position to take — Bowen is one of this game's most visible and generous ambassadors, and look how he's been received for even suggesting an idea here. It is a dynamic that is predictable, familiar, and deeply endemic.

Everyone is welcome, as long as you're cool with how it works now. The people who didn't feel totally welcome left already. Or don't post much. Or overqualify their introductions. Or filter this site heavily. Or deal with it because they want to figure out how to fix the coil on their upper playfield. Doesn't mean it's not happening.

Agreed. My favorite thing about Pinside is when people talk about pinball together and support each other.

Apparently not many, based on these numbers from Robin about 3 weeks ago:

"At the end of November, there are 24,208 "real "Pinside accounts. That's the number of activated, non-blocked/banned/frozen/dupe accounts.

Of those 24,208:
...13,330 Pinsiders logged on in the past 365 days
...5,977 Pinsiders logged on in the past 30 days (of those, 3,440 have made at least one post on the forum.)
...4,456 Pinsiders logged on in the past week (of those, 1,984 have made at least one post on the forum.)

This year we have had between 7 and 35 new signups per day (depending on the day).

As for new signups, this is the table:
2001: 1 Pinsider signed up
2002: 8 Pinsiders signed up
2003: 572 Pinsiders signed up
2004: 677 Pinsiders signed up
2005: 379 Pinsiders signed up
2006: 228 Pinsiders signed up
2007: 214 Pinsiders signed up
2008: 380 Pinsiders signed up
2009: 883 Pinsiders signed up
2010: 650 Pinsiders signed up
2011: 2164 Pinsiders signed up
2012: 5411 Pinsiders signed up
2013: 6449 Pinsiders signed up
2014: 6473 Pinsiders signed up (and counting!)"

I'm not bashing you Bowen, or anyone else for that matter. I think you're a great player and love your PAPA videos, I've learned to be a better player because of them, thank you for that.

But you must realize what you're up against here, the internet and thousands of users on this site alone. I believe this is a pretty well-run site here, yes there's a lot of crap to wade through, but you just have to learn how to "wade". How about all the threads where guys are arguing about price, condition, pre-orders, Lionman, etc., I don't care for much of it myself so I just move on to another thread.

I apologize that I'm one of the offending users on this forum, and I'll be more aware of what I post in the future. But, I'm also a boy trapped in a man's body at times (especially on weekends), so forgive me for my late-night avatar-induced postings that I'll try to delete in the morning.

Question: How many of those Pinsiders do you think are women?

Here's a clue from one of our own moderators, blondetall, who obviously IS a woman...

Ummm, man this is tough, under 10?

"Is that your FINAL answer?"

Haha. Don't worry. Just a rhetorical question.

Watch the language!

As odd as this might sound, why not implement tilting into people's score? If you self-tilt, +70, and +30 for everyone who tilts you afterward. But if you don't self-tilt and people tilt you, -200 per tilt.

I appreciate what Mr Kerins is trying to accomplish here. And Robin has come to a solution that works on a global scale. Hallauha!

I am amazed that there is such filth in record stores and music departments. Now CD's and the iTunes store. Too bad my kids are over 18 or I'd forbid them from having access to these disgusting things.

Now, where is my Ted Nugent Scream Dream album with Wango Tango? Love the Immaculate Wangettes.

LLLLLLLMFAO!

On the topic of women...

Can anyone tell me why we should cater to people that are a strong minority here?
I agree that we shouldn't exclude anyone, and expanding is great... But who are we really trying to please?

Bowen is pinball's de facto ambassador. While it has taken an entire group of people to help bring pinball to the masses and help it to grow in popularity, Bowen has been the public face of organized pinball for quite some time. So yes, while he is just one of thousands of Pinsiders, I don't think anyone would consider him just any Pinsider...

I hate getting involved in this conversation, but I'm pretty shocked by the ridiculousness on both ends of the spectrum.

I pretty much don't agree with anything pezpunk says, and feels he's often making a mountain out of a molehill. People are sexual, they like looking at sexual things, behave sexually, etc., and that does not mean they are being objectified or are objectifying someone. And if they are, I frankly don't care, as long as it's not demeaning and degrading.

And yet, I find myself equally horrified at the complete over-reaction by some the responses to Bowen's questions. There are people on this forum who are acting like their way of life and loved ones are being ripped away from them; as if they have a god-given right to combine their wack-off material with pinball, and that anything less is a complete travesty. I've spent my life in the comic industry, a world based on t&a, with more than it's fair share of sexually stunted individuals, and yet some of the comments I've seen over the last 3 years, as well as some truly poor treatment of female pinsiders I've read, has managed to blow my mind.

Bowen's concerns are valid. At age 5, my son loved pinball. He loved it all, the fun, the action, the rules (he's a bit obsessive). He would blow the mind of some veteran pinball fans in the area. And yet I still never let him look at pinside. I don't care how liberal a parent you are, there are some things kids don't need to see or read, at least in certain settings. That said, I hope the tilt warnings can be fully utilized by users and can address the situation. Hopefully Robin can find a reasonable middle-ground.

It got the job done for me.

I'm so old.

Socks....I never understood that......I wear them on my feet.

Because incentivizing the posting of tilt-worthy stuff is the dumbest suggestion of all time?

while your looking for your keys, ask them do they they happen to have a sister?

I never understood it either.

I'd love to know why you think any of that is in conflict with anything I've said. I have only objected to the degrading stuff, and I don't really think non-pinball related overtly sexist stuff belongs in pinball-related threads on a pinball forum.

This erroneous notion that I'm uptight or anti men or a prude or whatever is purely the result of dudes refusing to take five seconds to listen to what I'm complaining about. Most of you probably still think I was whining about Whoa Nellie art.

In my 30 years of traveling the world and seeing how other cultures act, I can safely say:

Americans are such prudes!

Seriously, how many of you neophytes have ever spent more than a couple weeks outside North America getting exposed to the progressive, mature cultures around the rest of the globe?

(rhetorical questions - answer to yourself, because I already know your answer).

Pinside resembling PSN forums or any game/console forum you see on the internet because the resurgence of digital Pinball on consoles IMO.

"Dem damn vidya games!" /shakes fist

You mean besides the people who have already stated that they do? Including Bowen himself?
Look, I did not say anything bad or insulting about the man...I don't know him from the next guy...But when people say that his opinion should weigh more than anyone else when it comes to how the site should be run, then I disagree with all due respect..If the topic of discussion was how to obtain a high score or how to crush a tournament then by all means he would be the go to guy...

Robin is the General...
The mods are Sergeants......
The rest of us are all privates

I am an American citizen by birth, and I have lived abroad for 5 years in 4 different countries and traveled to 28 others on 4 continents. I used to carry two passports. One was frequently being processed for a visa request at a foreign embassy while the other was being carried on my person on a business trip to another country. One of my trips lasted 6 weeks, totaled $32,000 in reimbursable expenses from 6 different currencies, and returned me home to London, England on a 12 hour flight from Hong Kong. I used to walk 6 blocks to work at 7:00 AM in 115 deg F temperatures in Dubai. My daughter was born in Scotland. During a 6-month stint in Port-au-Prince, Haiti, I learned to speak Creole.

Any other "rhetorical" questions?

passports.jpg

This is a pinball forum, stamp collecting is down the hall.