I also have a 10 pin line up with WOZ at the center. The WOZ is priced at $2 per play, 5 balls, 10 second ball save, with tightened out lanes. The other 9 pins are very late model Stern at $1 per play, 3 balls, 8 second ball save, and tightened out lanes.

WOZ averages $314 per week, the next best is IMVE coming in at $297 per week, and everything else near the $200 per week average.

I personally think it's worth it since I operate in a very touristy location, and I want people to experience games that would otherwise only be found in a private collection.

Picked one up for my location that's opening in a few weeks. Will report back once I have numbers to back it up. People are very excited that I have it though, many local players have told me that they can't wait to get to play one.

Why not $1 / 3 balls? Just curious..

I have some pins in a pub. About a year ago we did a big event, brought extra games in and put them on freeplay. Bunch of 90s games, half a dozen new Sterns and WOZ. WOZ was literally played almost non stop and got close to double the play as my next best games. Mind you this is on free play. Since then I have been asked about putting it in and I am going to do it at the end of this month. Not sure if it would do better than two stern pros TBH but I am expecting it to do very well. I get a lot of casual players and I am fairly certain the lightshow/screen will help to bring them in. I think that is where it does really well and while some people don't like it the people that do tend to get really sucked into it. The new code on it is great too as it is pretty generous giving out multiballs on the last ball of a bad game and that can be all it takes to get someone to play again. I will put an update up after I have had it out a couple weeks.

I picked up an early run WoZ ECLE, HUO, about 6 months old. Put cliffy's on it, and put it on location.

It made no more money than any of my other games.

It was OOO (out of order) a lot, and had light boards dying every week. Any profit coming in was spent on shipping charges for dead light boards to NJ.

I had to bend some ball guides to prevent metal shavings from getting all over the play field. The tree's on the pop bumpers kept falling off. I mylared the heavy wear areas before play field damage could start.

I ended up selling it and broke even.

^^^THIS. Even with dedicated ops, WOZ is partially broken or down completely almost as much as it is up here locally .

That ain't true here.

LTG : )

I think there is a huge difference between early ECLE editions and the ones they are cranking out now. I'm not an operator, but I did take mine (Ruby Red, build date september 2015) to MAGFest where it got over 900 plays in 4 days, and it held up fine.

personally I'd think you would make more money making it 3 balls and less per game. When people walk up to it, they do not know you get 5 balls. So they are going to look at it and compare it to the other games.

A stern pro runs about $5k. A WOZ 75th LE runs about $10k. WOZ is a far more complex game than most stern pros, so I wanted to give players a chance to enjoy the game. The game is in a 99% tourist environment, with about 25% of those tourists from out of the country. Most of these people never get to see a WOZ outside of a private collection, much less actually play one.

There is a sign on the apron that states game is 5 balls.

HUO certainly do not come up for sale often and when they do I have yet to see a bargain so if put on route they must be holding their value big time

I thought $1 a game for the Stern's at NYNY was fair. I actually thought all the games would be $2..

This is why I haven't bought a Woz or any JJ pin for route. Need to work the bugs out

Is it having issues at Nomad as well?

Not sure, I've never been to the Nomad. I know it sucked when it was at Mort's and it still sucks at Sun Ray. The amount of time and money that Tony has thrown at that game to keep it up is ridiculous. I've heard the same thing from multiple locals here who have had it in their collections too. It's not a big deal for me. It only matters to me when I have to play WOZ for super league cause no one ever chooses it in tournaments. I'm not a fan of the game so I hardly ever choose to play it if I don't have to.

Like I said, if you get a new one now, it will be reliable. It's been in production for several years at this point and they've got the kinks worked out. (That said, NO pin is perfect, and most NiB pins, regardless of manufacturer, require some adjustment after unboxing).

As far as code goes, it's got some of the deepest and best code of any pin there is, and the recent updates are great. I'm not sure the code affects overall reliability much, though.

Well, as much as I like the game, I'll give you "deepest"...but I'm pretty cynical about the "best" moniker. And this is from someone who thinks Keefer is a software genius.

Maybe things have changed recently, and if they have, I fully admit that I'm not "up" on the changes, but the software in WoZ is so mind-blowingly deep that it's not really understandable to any real degree without spending an egregious amount of time studying, asking questions, etc. It's *absolutely* not approachable in any real way. There's a ton there, perhaps, but no great way of understanding what to do, or how to do it. It's a fault, unfortunately, and I don't see that as "best" by a mile.

Aaron Grabowski tried to explain the best way to play the game to me one time, and he was about four sentences in when my eyes started glazing over and I started to understand why the game was frustrating to a lot of people, myself included. Playing the game *feels* like a million darned dollars, only in Chinese. Nothing really logically follows, much less flows. Yes, I've seen the "map". Doesn't really help. Super X is a complete and total mystery. Starting something simple like multiball should not be a mysterious chore that doesn't really make sense...there should be a pretty clear path, and there isn't.

While it *feels* like the best game I've ever played, it doesn't make any real sense, and so I don't play it for the most part. Sometimes, knowing when to pull on the reins and slow down can be the smartest move you make. If you run the horses at full tilt for too long, they die, and you're left stranded with a dead horse. To me, it seems like that's kind of the case with WoZ.

The ruleset is insanely deep but the basic subsets are not that hard to understand or achieve as long as you break them down that way. I can quickly explain to a noob how to start EC Multiball, how to advance YBR to get an extra ball, how to capture and rescue Dorothy and how to get the CB modes (Super X as you referred to it) as well as lighting and starting Munchkin modes. If you take those and pick your path to stacking them it's all you need for a good score - if you can hit the shots! Add in the witch hurry ups to get to Fireball and Melt the Witch (one of the best mini-wizard modes I've seen) plus HF multiball as goals and there you have it!

I didn't answer the original question. IMHO, I would do the 2 Sterns. ROI would be faster, if ExtremePinball's numbers are used. In my experience, less maintenance as well.

So, $314 for WoZ a week, and if we take the low, the 2 Sterns would be doing $200 each, for $400 a week. $86 a week more on average.

to be fair, if you get two Sterns, that's twice the maintenance of one Stern. I doubt WOZ is more than twice the maintenance of a Stern. (although there are probably those who would argue that point )

there are a ton of features, but i don't think any particular feature is overly complicated. starting multiball (Rescue or Emerald City) is pretty straightforward --

EC Multiball: light each lock by spelling "scarecrow", "tin man", and "lion". lock each ball by hitting the ramp. lock 3 balls for multiball. couldn't be simpler.

Rescue Multiball: hit the two monkey targets to light the winged monkey. send the ball to the winged monkey, who locks the ball in the castle (thus capturing Dorothy). go to the castle, spell rescue, bash the door down, and enter the castle. viola. Rescue Multiball.

to be sure, if you are trying to win a tournament, there are all kinds of nuances in terms of stacking modes and stuff if you really want to get super huge scores, but anyone can walk up and pretty much figure out those 2 multiball modes.

In MY experience, WOZ has been no more, or less, problematic than any given Stern machine. And weekly-monthly maintenance has also been no more, or less, than any Stern machine.

Allow me to clarify a few things.... First of all, I don't own NYNY Hotel & Casino, nor do I own the arcade, I'm merely a revenue share partner in the arcade. Because I don't own the place, I'm only allowed 10 pinball machines in the arcade, therefore, removing WOZ would only result in one other machine replacing it.... and ultimately a decrease in revenue.

I have an early WOZLE and never had a light board issue. Have had to reset the computer twice but I do have the button on outside of computer case.

For EC MB it is easy to start, but the jackpots are very confusing and it wasn't until recently that they were explained well by the game. It's so counter-intuitive to hit a roll over, shoot the ramp AND then shoot the throne room to get a jackpot. There were lots of good players here that had played the game dozens of times and never knew that was how to get a jackpot until it was explained to them.

Same thing for Rescue MB. It is easy to start IF you capture dorothy, you spell rescue and knock the door down immediately, but if you go over all of a sudden you get lock 1 and things start over with no explanation and you have to spell RESCUE again. Same thing happens if you do it again with lock 2. It's very confusing for people.

WOZ has a deep rule set (which I love in games), but for all of the lighting capabilities and all of the display space, I think WOZ has some of the worst audio and visual clues of any pinball machine out there.

I had a WOZ ECLE on location off and on from late 2013 up until this past month. It was an early game with 7.5V boards. It earned well, but the maintenance was far greater than any other pin I had on location. Once the earnings started to drop off, it was not a hard choice to replace it. IMHO, I believe most of the light board issues on the 7.5V games are related to total time in service, not necessarily total plays. Certainly, not much to back this up, but I can recall seeing light boards fail in attract mode. It seems like most of the things I ran into were not related to heavy play. I know several people that had their WOZ ECLE manufactured during the same week, two were routed and had similar issues, two others were home use and have had very few problems. If you are going to route one, I would suggest buying it new.

One important thing to consider, JJP stood behind every light board problem regardless of any warranty period. In fact, their support is exemplary.

Well, it sounds like the OP has a choice between 1 WoZ or 2 Sterns ... using your numbers, it appears the 2 Sterns would ultimately be an increase in revenue for him.

I would be one to argue that, based on my experience with it.

Agreed. While I had it, the support was great. My only issue was, I could only get new light boards when the old ones died. Shipping from NJ was more than a week. So, board dies, ticket goes in, and the WoZ goes dark for a week (only if I couldn't jump the chain, then only one set of lights were out). While waiting for the new board, hey, whadda you know, another board dies. Ticket in, wait, rinse and repeat. Old boards were shipped back on my dime (around $15 a time). I did ask for a full set, so I could make one trip to the location (gas and time) instead of multiples, and I was told nope, that's not how it works. So, after doing this around 8 times (8 trips to location, gas, time and shipping charges back), enough was enough. Bye bye.

This is very well-put, actually. It sums up succinctly what I was trying to explain. I also believe that "spelling" the different characters in the game isn't very easy-to-understand...I couldn't figure out for a long while that spelling was done via the rollover buttons on the playfield, and thus lighting locks for whichever multiball that is (locking balls on the ramp) was a frustrating process...WHY WON'T THE RAINBOW STANDUPS LIGHT THE LAST LOCK?!?!?!?-kind of frustrating. It's the lack of clarity that really leaves you up in the air. It's hard to *make those shots* if you don't know what shots you're supposed to make. Clarity helps. WoZ isn't clear, and you'd think with the display that it has, it would be far more clear than any game before it.

Again: deep? All day long and twice on Sunday. Best? No, not when it's patently unclear to someone who's been playing pinball, including pinball with very deep rulesets and understanding of them (TZ, TSPP, LOTR, WPT, etc.), for 25+ years. That's a bit of an issue. I am *not* saying that there isn't any fault on my end, but there has to be an acknowledgement that, if someone as into pinball as I am can't naturally figure out what to do and/or what's going on, what hope is there for a novice?

ah...so you're the one running the NYNY pins. EXCELLENT Condition pins!! Ive been there 3 times and each time the experience has been grand! The last time i went, to my surprise, was an WOZRR! Never liked the game until i played yours. Beautiful, fun game. Please keep it there, i plan on coming back soon

SKB

That seems to be the popular opinion in our circle.

Slow down a second. Let me clarify.... $200 per week on the Sterns was the AVERAGE of 9 machines, not the low. I've already rotated a few lower earning pins out of my setup at NYNY. I had a WWE pro averaging $139 per week. My X-Men Pro only averaged $128 per week. So those two pins, against a single WOZ RR, results in double the space, and double the workload, for less money. So, it really depends on WHICH Sterns (or any other manufacturer) you put in there.

Today, the lowest earning pin in the lineup is Mustang Pro at $165 per week. So as soon as Ghostbusters arrives and is properly prepped for "work", it will be replaced.

I wasn't going to start a thread on this, but I saw something the other day that I wanted to ask other WOZ OPs about. I was playing at the arcade. The the ball jumped off the upper left playfield and went into the back of the cabinet... I asked the tech for assistance as the ball search wasn't finding it in the bottom of the cabinet. Anyway when the field was lifted there were gold flakes -lots- of them on top of the transformer. Must be from some metal part wearing off the rotating house. Is that a normal wear area? I can't imagine this is normal...
-Shawn

Okay, if 200 is the Avg with those dogs dragging it down, if he puts in say GoT and TWD, it would be higher than $200 per machine? The ROI just got even better then.

I drive 4 hours to play woz!

Not normal, most likely a flipper coil stop falling apart.

That's a lot of effort! How often?

Agreed, all things being equal. The problem is that nothing is equal. Whether the lineup is comprised of 2 pins, or 200 pins, there will always be high earners, and there will always be low earners. Additionally, some machines earn more, or less, in different locations. By this I mean different locations within the same arcade, or even a different position in the line-up itself, as well as different locations out on the street. Proper game placement, as known in real estate, relies on location, location, location.

While you suggest GOT & TWD are the go to pins for revenue, I have both of these in my line up and they both get smoked by IMVE.

However, this may not necessarily be the case in any other location. Case in point: I have 4 pins next door in the Fun Dungeon Arcade at Excalibur Hotel & Casino. IMVE, South Park, Avengers, & Transformers. Of the 4, IMVE is the lowest earner. Go figure.

I hear ya. My IM never made any money. But it made more than WoZ, and had less issues, and cost less money.

Meanwhile, Metallica still crushing it going on almost 3 years. Kiss is doing stellar as well, and the players love TWD.

I put in a MM, players go 'meh' and turn back to the newer Sterns. Had a gorgeous WH2O that played great, and some days it should not have even been turned on since it wasnt played.

My GOT & Kiss have only been in the line up for 2 months. So it's really unfair to compare their earnings to pins that have been through a summer season on the Las Vegas strip. Come September, I'll have a clearer picture of what's earning what.

Meanwhile, Metallica, which is heavily modded out including FF speakers, and has been in the line-up for 10 months, is the second lowest earner of the 10 pin lineup. Again, go figure.

I think it depends on your customers. At Marvin's we have had a WOZ since they first came out - at one point we had prototype game #2 which was replaced with an early 5v production game. It was then upgraded to 7 volt.

There have been plenty of issues but it is still running and earning good.

When our Hobbit was on the way I was thinking we should just pull the WOZ but after looking at the earnings again decided against it.

The big thing not many have touched on is that women and children play WOZ a lot. And I think many of these people would not play pinball AT ALL if it wasn't for WOZ. It think it brings in new players and additional coin drop. Instead of just robbing from another game.

So if your clientele comprises a lot of women and children I would say get one.

I wonder if they were playing in an environment where the volume was too low to hear the callouts. During multiball, mine yells "Shoot the Ramp" and "Shoot the Throne Room". It makes it very clear what to shoot for the jackpot.

It could be because the pinheads already played IMVE at your other location...

To your point I recently had a friend and his 10 and 12 y/o boys over and at first the boys had basically zero interest in playing any pinball, they were on their iPods playing games. Their dad and I started playing and challenging them to games and then they were into it. I have a fairly limited lineup but I thought for sure that Spiderman would be their favorite however at the end of the night it was WOZ they kept playing and said was their favorite. I was surprised in a way so I asked them if they had ever even seen the movie and they both said "oh, yeah!" right away.

I think I picked the wrong hobby. If a "limited lineup" is 8 awesome pins then I'm screwed, I'll never be able to afford that many. Glad they enjoyed the WOZ, thinking about getting one myself or a Hobbit. Tough choice, I have a 10 year old and a 5 year old and they both want Hobbit, me and my wife want WOZ. What an awesome pin WOZ is, outstanding in every way, I can see why its a big earner for the operators, it really appeals to everyone.

My TRON Pro has gold flakes in the cabinet as well. They're not gold they're whatever metal makes up the kickers/flippers/coils etc. It is probably just gold-colored based on the metal used. Totally normal.

The "gold" flakes are brass shavings from one of the flipper coil stops coming apart. It will begin to cause flipper problems (getting stuck in the up position) as more of the brass sheds off.

It is not normal.

Stern had a bad batch of coil stops that shed all those gold flakes.

Replace them!

Actually what about the recent Marco coil stops? I've heard their flipper stop rivets are falling off before you even open the packaging.

Unfortunately I've seen this exact story *several times* except the woz was substituted in the past for a slew of other things such as the only EM in a DMD line up, Acdc, etc.

This is very common in my area.

When I don't go to the Silverballl Museum, I take my children to Jenkinson's arcade and every Stern they have put next to WOZ takes a beating in earnings and is ultimately replaced. Thus far, it has soundly trounced Transformers Pro and AC/DC Pro. There is now a TWD Pro next to it, but it seems to get very little action.