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Iron Maiden is the only game we've completed end-to-end so far. If you've left a review or placed an ad for an Iron Maiden Prem/LE, please check it to make sure it now points to the correct version. If it doesn't, drop me a PM and we'll get it corrected.
Quoted from robin:For example, The Avengers has a "normal" LE, but also a "Hulk" LE. Right now, these share one database record. I'm not sure if further separating these into two records adds much value?
I think it makes sense to split them for collection/wishlist purposes as well in addition to value as FF noted above.
Betelgeuse asked a great question in another thread:
"How did the (AC/DC) LE have separate ratings before now if the Premium/LE were lumped together as one game?"
Answer:
I use SQL to look for patterns in the review text such as "LE", "Limited", "LTBR", "BIBLE", " Let there be rock", "back in black" (not case sensitive) and text not like "prem" or "luci". Then I skim through those results to see if there are any false positives ie ("I like Deadpool LE better than this game").
There's always a couple of reviews that are small novels that might be categorized incorrectly but I'd say the process is 95% accurate.
The ads are a little easier as there is both a title and description to analyze, but you still get descriptions like "I'm selling this game in order to get a LE", so I have to read through them as well to eliminate false positives.
That being said - if anyone sees an ad or review that's improperly linked, shoot me a PM and I'll get it corrected.
Quoted from littlecammi:I think this one aspect of splitting out trim versions is a bad thing. The Pinside Top 100 used to include 100 different titles (maybe 99, if Addams Gold was rated separately from TAF). How many titles will wind up in the top 100 once multiple versions of Godzilla and other recent games push numerous titles out? Is "Top 100" even accurate in a list comprised of far less than 100 different titles?
Trim levels are combined for ranking purposes - there's always been 3 trim levels of Godzilla, yet it only occupies one position in the top 100.
I think the (valid) argument is that the different trim level ratings for a game should be averaged to generate the top 100 overall ranking vs just taking the highest rating within the game group (ie the average rating of the Pro, Premium and LE for a game vs the highest rating of either the Pro, Premium or LE).
Quoted from Aurich:But why? If day Godzilla Premium plays differently from the Pro, and one is a great game and one is a good game why does the existence of a lesser model hurt the better game?
This is just an example, don’t get mad Godzilla Pro owners. But I wouldn’t buy a GZ Pro, it’s either the full game for that title or nothing.
I’m just not sure how averaging helps anything.
Precisely because of the "game group" concept. If you are going to make the choice to have only one ranking in the top 100 for Godzilla (vs 3 for each trim level), you need to average the scores together.
In general, the Prem/LE scores are higher than the pro on every title - so it's probably not going to make a huge difference in the rankings overall, but it would mitigate the recent weirdness that's happening when the LE ratings are teased out from the previously combined Prem/LE ratings. (ie, it would prevent Star Trek from shooting up to #2 from #20).
Quoted from Aurich:If people are rating it that high shouldn't it just be that high though? Like, is it honestly a bug?
I really don't care about the top 100, I don't rate games, I don't tie my ego to where things I own are, I'm just looking at this as dispassionately as possible. Star Trek LE looks better than all the other versions by most people's accounts. The lit cab sides are really cool. It's going to score visually higher.
I dunno how you make visuals a category that matters, but then somewhat artificially hold back the 'pretty' games because there are other versions that don't look as good.
I agree with you that Star Trek LE is one of the prettiest LEs that's ever been made and it should be rated highly. But, under the current system, a deservedly high score for Star Trek LE propels the *whole* game to the #2 spot. That's what is broken - Star Trek is not and and should not be the #2 game just because they knocked it out of the park on the LE trim package. That's why an average of all 3 trim levels would be more accurate for an overall ranking position.
Quoted from ForceFlow:I don't think it's broken.
A game title's editions are grouped together.
The top score of that group determines the title's overall rank. That way, a particular editions doesn't unfairly act as a boat anchor dragging down the game title.
Just tap/click the game title on the list, and it shows all the editions and their scores.
Personally, I think it's a lot more understandable than having multiple editions of the same title scattered around on the list. That would dilute the overall rankings and be unfair against titles that only have one edition.
Not every LE edition ranks higher than the other editions. Occasionally, they rank lower.
I'm not arguing that the games should be separated, just that the top 100 score should be an average of all versions.
The "broken" part is taking the highest score within a group instead of taking the average.
Look at Star Trek:
DF994AC7-2E20-4A26-9BF7-D4FEE425F1C6 (resized).jpeg
500ish people have rated the pro, 500ish have rated the premium, yet the 83 people that rated the LE dictate the games score and position in the top 100. That's broken.
Quoted from robin:If we used the average of the three versions's ratings, the group rating would be: (9.178 + 9.172 + 8.827) / 3 = 9.059
Or, a weighted average would result in this rating: ((296 * 9.178) + (520 * 9.172) + (338 * 8.827)) / (296+520+338) = 9.072
... As you can see, the difference is not great.
But, if you do the same weighted average calculation for Star Trek:
((83 * 8.851) + (521 * 8.438) + (489 * 8.264)) / (83 + 521 + 489) = 8.392
That's a huge difference!
It's currently #4 in the Top 100 using the score of 8.851, but it would be #40 using the weighted average.
I think most of us would agree that Star Trek (regardless of version) is a top 50 game, not a top 5 game.
Quoted from Aurich:And yet it seems people don't agree, which is why they're rating it such.
I sold my Star Trek Premium because I found it boring. Do I think it's a top 50 game? No. But clearly other people are rating it differently, so what my opinion, or yours, is doesn't really matter.
Either the ratings have some meaning or they don't.
Right - 83 LE owners feel it's a top 5 pin. 1000 other people feel it's a top 50 pin. The issue I see is that the current ranking method allows for those 83 LE ratings to determine the overall ranking, while the 1000 (arguably more objective) ratings are ignored in the calculation.
And please note - I have nothing against Star Trek, it's just a good example that illustrates the issue. FWIW - I owned an STLE and thought it was a beautiful game, but the mode shots were not varied enough for my liking.
Quoted from Aurich:In the meantime there are hundreds of Star Trek LEs, lots of people have played them, and it's rated where it is because people used the system to put in their numbers like they're supposed to.
Your argument is a valid viewpoint and is fully realized in the custom top 100 that robin mentioned:
https://pinside.com/pinball/top-100/custom
In that ranking system, the games are separated and you can see that STLE is #7, STPrem is #70 and STPro is #98.
However, in a ranked list that has all 3 trims lumped into a single entry, most people would expect the ranking position to be determined by an average of all the games within the group. You know, where everyone's ranking actually counts and not just a small minority (< 10% in the case of Star Trek).
Quoted from robin:So what would an average do? It would be a rating of some kind of hypothetical mix of these games together? But that misses the goal/intent of the top 100: listing the best pinball machines.
A weighted average would allow everyone's rating to count vs only a handful of ratings. To me, the current top 100 implies a weighted average because no version is listed:
7679590E-9F7B-493E-97EF-CE7E43517ECF (resized).jpeg
"Godzilla" and "Deadpool" are generic names that encompass all versions of the game, yet the rating only reflects one version. I have to expand the group to see which version is being represented.
If I've rated a version of the game that isn't the "winner", I have to re-rate the other version of the game again in order for my vote to be counted:
B98D7701-53AD-4274-8654-05C49BB261EA (resized).jpeg
In the end - your opinion is the only one that matters, I'm just trying to give context as to why a lot of us feel it's a mixed bag.
Quoted from yancy:Maybe a good criterion for separation is, would anyone want both of them in a collection simultaneously?
No - but no one wants a Pro and Prem of the same title either.
However, I'm with Aurich and
robin on this one - I agree with separating them. Different manufacturers, hardware, cabinets, art, etc
Quoted from PBhead:Regardless of rating, the issue is the original SLE isn't even recognized separately in the Machines tab, but the 40th is
It will have a separate entry soon. Our first pass was to separate the Prem/LE entries.
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