(Topic ID: 329698)

Operation: Premium/LE

By robin

14 days ago


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  • 41 posts
  • 28 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 18 hours ago by Isochronic_Frost
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders
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    #1 14 days ago

    Hi Pinside!

    TLDR;
    Turns out grouping Premium and LE games together in one database record (which Pinside did from 2012 to 2018) was a bad decision. Today that we will start separating all of them into separate Premium and LE entries.

    Backstory
    Let's go back to the fall of 2011. Stern had just come out with Tron: Legacy and, a year earlier, Avatar and Rolling Stones. These titles were released in two different version of the game: a "pro" version (aimed at the operators market) and a "Limited Edition" (targeted toward the growing market of home buyers). Differences between the titles were slight, many just cosmetic, but enough to warrant me to create two database records: a Pro and an LE entry.

    But then came Transformers and with it not two, but three different versions of the same title! Stern came up with another "Premium" model. Feature-wise, it was as rich as the LE, minus some hardware cosmetics (and the LE # tag). At the time, I figured it made little sense to generate yet another database entry, but instead decided to group together these very similar Premium and LE models. This was mostly decided due to the ratings (which I thought would be extremely similar) and, frankly, because I wasn't a fan of having to maintain yet another version.

    Hindsight is 20/20
    But as we all know now, Pro/Premium/LE (or variations hereof) became a standard and soon other manufacturers followed in Sterns footsteps by also releasing multiple version of the same title.

    And after a few years, I became more and more convinced of the value of fully separating out these titles. So with the release of Deadpool, we began making different entries for all different versions of the game.

    The problem challenge
    That leaves us with old 15 titles that now need to be sliced in two (see list below). However, a huge amount of data has meanwhile accumulated for all these Premium/LE entries. Over 6,800 ads, 8,300+ ratings, 15,000 forum topics are linked to these games. Over 1,500 locations on our map are listing one of these games. Etc. And on top of that we have over 20,000 Pinsiders listing these games in their collections. So you can hopefully see that this separating is a bit of a daunting task.

    Luckily a Pinsider offered to help. Damon (Damonator) reached out and asked about this and also offered his help, which made me come up with a strategy: We would rename all Premium/LE titles to Premium. Then we would clone that record into a new database entry for the LE. And then we would manually "point" certain content on the site to this new LE entry.

    Affected titles
    So... Which titles are we talking about anyways?

    ...done...
    2691 Iron Maiden (Premium/LE) ✔ done
    2146 Transformers (Premium/LE) - ✔ done - Game has simply been renamed to LE (there is no premium)
    2144 AC/DC (Premium/LE) - ✔ done
    2163 The Avengers (Premium/LE) - ✔ done

    ...to do...
    2505 Guardians of the Galaxy (Premium/LE) - To do
    2477 Star Wars (Premium/LE) - To do
    2448 Aerosmith (Premium/LE) - To do
    2431 Batman '66 - To do
    2396 Ghostbusters (Premium/LE) - To do
    2237 Game of Thrones (Premium/LE) - To do
    2227 KISS (Premium/LE) - To do
    2211 The Walking Dead (Premium/LE) - To do
    2199 Mustang (Premium/LE) - To do
    2191 Star Trek (Premium/LE) - To do
    2188 Metallica (Premium/LE) - In progress: Game has been split into two entries

    I'm hesitant about splitting LE's down into further separate entries. For example, The Avengers has a "normal" LE, but also a "Hulk" LE. Right now, these share one database record. I'm not sure if further separating these into two records adds much value?

    In the coming weeks Damon and I will be working on this.

    Is your collection affected? Once your game has been "split", you can go into the collection editor, click on the "purchase details" edit link for the affected game and change your game from Premium to LE or vice versa.

    #2 14 days ago

    Thank you Robin.
    You’re efforts are always appreciated.

    #3 14 days ago

    I love it. I have a game affected in my collection thanks for all the hard work!

    #4 14 days ago

    Iron Maiden is the only game we've completed end-to-end so far. If you've left a review or placed an ad for an Iron Maiden Prem/LE, please check it to make sure it now points to the correct version. If it doesn't, drop me a PM and we'll get it corrected.

    #5 14 days ago

    Thank you, Robin and damonator. Pinside is an immeasurable resource for pinheads everywhere.

    The forum software implementation is some of the very best on the internet I've ever seen. Thanks again.

    #6 14 days ago

    This is a great idea Robin! Thank you for always looking to improve a already fantastic site!!

    #7 14 days ago
    Quoted from Polypin:

    The forum software implementation is some of the very best on the internet I've ever seen. Thanks again.

    I joined Aussie arcade years ago but the website totally sucks , so I never go there .
    Pinside is the best by far .
    I love how it's set up and it's so easy to navigate .

    #8 14 days ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I'm not sure if further separating these into two records adds much value?

    Yes, these variant editions tend to sell for different prices. AC/DC is another example of this with multiple premium/LE variants.

    Two additional titles that need splitting:

    Wizard of Oz
    The Hobbit

    Editions listed here: https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Jersey_Jack_Repair_Guides

    #9 14 days ago
    Quoted from robin:

    For example, The Avengers has a "normal" LE, but also a "Hulk" LE. Right now, these share one database record. I'm not sure if further separating these into two records adds much value?

    I think it makes sense to split them for collection/wishlist purposes as well in addition to value as FF noted above.

    #10 13 days ago

    Appreciate all the hard work that goes into making the community richer. I have an affected game (Metallica LE) and I wouldn't care if it was listed as prem/LE still, but it's always nice to get more data in our hobby. Manufacturers are pretty tight lipped about the numbers, so just from the perspective of more insights I'm for it.

    #11 13 days ago

    I have a Maiden LE but it got reclassified as a premium in the split. I can go into the purchase details and change it to an LE and then save but it still shows up as a premium afterwards. If did this a few times and it doesn't seem possible to switch it. Perhaps there are still some bugs to work out?

    #12 13 days ago
    Quoted from twenty84:

    I have a Maiden LE but it got reclassified as a premium in the split. I can go into the purchase details and change it to an LE and then save but it still shows up as a premium afterwards. If did this a few times and it doesn't seem possible to switch it. Perhaps there are still some bugs to work out?

    Same issue for me

    #13 13 days ago
    Quoted from twenty84:

    I have a Maiden LE but it got reclassified as a premium in the split. I can go into the purchase details and change it to an LE and then save but it still shows up as a premium afterwards. If did this a few times and it doesn't seem possible to switch it. Perhaps there are still some bugs to work out?

    Thanks for reporting, I will investigate this tomorrow.

    #14 13 days ago

    Same issue with my Metallica, if I chage Premium to LE and save changes it doesn't take.

    #15 13 days ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    es, these variant editions tend to sell for different prices. AC/DC is another example of this with multiple premium/LE variants.

    It may be worth noting that there are multiple Premium variants for Metallica too.

    #16 13 days ago

    Woz, Hobbit and dialed in could use standard Le and Ce differentiation.

    #17 13 days ago

    Robin,

    Have a Stern Avengers in my past collection. When I go into the "Purchase Details", I can select the dropdown to change it from the current Premium to the proper LE.

    However, even though I hit the "Save Changes" button, it's still improperly listing it as a Premium.

    Thanks for all you do (and for the 2018 tour of downtown Alkmaar),
    EV

    #18 13 days ago

    Thanks for that, Robin!

    Might consider Elvira's House of Horrors, too: Pre/LE/SE/40th

    There is not option for the SE (Signature Edition).

    #19 13 days ago

    The Iron Maiden LE I sold is tied to a premium.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive/135851

    #20 13 days ago

    Rob Zombie also had an LE run of 50

    #21 13 days ago

    Excellent work!!! Very happy to hear the change. Doesn’t Transformers technically have 4 versions? “Pro” “Autobot” “Deception” and “LE Combo” my pro has a stamp on the playfield that says “#XX out of 750”, and the others have that too. So I think the Pro for that was actually limited to 750, unless they used the same playfields for all them and that’s why they show 750.

    Hard to tell, but the differences are minimal, aside from a minor ramp change and a drop target.

    •One thing I love about this is reattributing old ads.
    I do a lot of research in the archived ads, and it drives me insane how often people accidentally put the wrong damn game!!! I will gladly volunteer my time to cleanup ads for one of those entries if it allows me to fix marketplace game tags.

    •Can we also please ban tagging games on some of the general threads like regional for sale? It makes no sense and is a detriment to those trying to use the linked forum tab to find relevant topics. There is no way page 743 out of 48,924 pages listing game XYZ on the 15th post down is relevant to anyone.

    #22 13 days ago

    Weird Al has an LE version of 227 with exclusive topper, artwork and signed translite.

    #23 11 days ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I'm hesitant about splitting LE's down into further separate entries. For example, The Avengers has a "normal" LE, but also a "Hulk" LE. Right now, these share one database record. I'm not sure if further separating these into two records adds much value?

    As a dedicated amasser of pinball data, I would advise you to separate every identifiable version into its own record.
    .................David Marston

    #24 11 days ago

    Wow!
    Thanks for the new classifications! I see now games like Kingpin and Zingy Bingy have “prototype” classifications.

    I changed Kingpin from Custom Build to Prototype because custom build doesn’t accurately describe it.

    We should also consider if IPB Big Bang Bar deserves a separate entry from Capcom’s Big Bang Bar.
    They are basically the exact some considering it was build with leftover parts, however Capcom’s are protos and the IPB would be a custom build/production run

    #25 8 days ago

    Thanks for all the feedback!

    Looks like there are quite some more games that could be "split".

    But let's start with the list in my opening post, then we'll look at all the suggestions.

    Today I've updated Ratings/Ads for AC/DC.

    I also fixed that bug preventing you to change your collection items from Premium to LE. Should work properly now.

    #26 8 days ago

    I thought this meant that Robin was announcing his own pinball company with the first title as "Operation" (based on the popular kids game) and it came in two models: Premium/LE

    "Operation: Premium/LE"

    #27 8 days ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I also fixed that bug preventing you to change your collection items from Premium to LE. Should work properly now.

    Worked for me now, thanks.

    #28 8 days ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Yes, these variant editions tend to sell for different prices. AC/DC is another example of this with multiple premium/LE variants.
    Two additional titles that need splitting:
    Wizard of Oz
    The Hobbit
    Editions listed here: https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Jersey_Jack_Repair_Guides

    I'd Like to Second this.
    I suggested the splitting of Woz several years ago for the database. Over time I saw the price difference between Emerald and Ruby. I felt it would be better for both buyers and sellers to know the value of the specific machine.

    #29 7 days ago

    It would be great if you can take the average of all 3 rates in the top 100. It's unfair to the great pins of the 90s. As technology has changed in pinball over the years. The old machines(em, ss) should only have 4 categories. Theme, art, play and competition play. It's probably to much to ask.

    #30 6 days ago

    the ac/dc back in black le sells for 3-4k more than the "let there be rock" le. there is a definite difference there on that title (I have owned two and bought one recently).

    #31 6 days ago
    Quoted from jake35:

    the ac/dc back in black le sells for 3-4k more than the "let there be rock" le. there is a definite difference there on that title (I have owned two and bought one recently).

    When there are different categories for Star Wars prem / comic book art prem it would makes sense to have different categories for different LE versions also.

    #32 4 days ago

    FWIW, i think pro/premium/LE/CE/SLE is the way to go. If you split them out further, then you need to do vault editions (AC/DC, IM, SM) multiple pro editions (tron), multiple premium (MET, AC/DC), and multiple LE (WOZ/HOBBIT/AVengers/XMLE/TF).

    It would just get way to confusing and really doesn’t add much, other than bragging rights.

    #33 4 days ago
    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    It would just get way to confusing and really doesn’t add much, other than bragging rights.

    The individual editions can be grouped/linked now under a single title, so it's not quite as confusing.

    I don't think it has anything to do with "bragging rights". I think it's better for pricing data and historical data to document all these editions. You can't deny that these editions exist and that there are differences between the editions (some relatively minor, but some significant).

    Sometimes vault editions include improvements over the original. So, they aren't exactly the same.

    I think it's more confusing for people not having these editions documented. Back when JJP was releasing edition after edition of WOZ, I was confused as to which edition included what features. So, I eventually documented them on pinwiki just to help keep track of them.

    The same situation with MET and AC/DC--there are various editions of those, and honestly, I really don't know what all the differences are between them. But I think it would be helpful to make note of them and what exactly each edition looks like and/or includes.

    #34 4 days ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    The individual editions can be grouped/linked now under a single title, so it's not quite as confusing.
    I don't think it has anything to do with "bragging rights". I think it's better for pricing data and historical data to document all these editions. You can't deny that these editions exist and that there are differences between the editions (some relatively minor, but some significant).
    Sometimes vault editions include improvements over the original. So, they aren't exactly the same.
    I think it's more confusing for people not having these editions documented. Back when JJP was releasing edition after edition of WOZ, I was confused as to which edition included what features. So, I eventually documented them on pinwiki just to help keep track of them.
    The same situation with MET and AC/DC--there are various editions of those, and honestly, I really don't know what all the differences are between them. But I think it would be helpful to make note of them and what exactly each edition looks like and/or includes.

    We’re gonna need admins/mods and the other users with marketplace editing abilities to keep an eye on it as well, because plenty often a lazy or ignorant seller lists their machine as the wrong one, and that drives me nuts!

    #35 4 days ago

    The potential problem that I see with this system is with the rankings. Now there will be more rare editions that few people have access to, that now have their own profile. If all of the owners give the game high ratings, those titles will always be ranked at the top.

    #36 4 days ago

    Do ratings for Premium vs LE differ that much except for artwork?
    That would really be my only possible different rating personally, at least on Stern games

    #37 4 days ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    The individual editions can be grouped/linked now under a single title, so it's not quite as confusing.
    I don't think it has anything to do with "bragging rights". I think it's better for pricing data and historical data to document all these editions. You can't deny that these editions exist and that there are differences between the editions (some relatively minor, but some significant).
    Sometimes vault editions include improvements over the original. So, they aren't exactly the same.
    I think it's more confusing for people not having these editions documented. Back when JJP was releasing edition after edition of WOZ, I was confused as to which edition included what features. So, I eventually documented them on pinwiki just to help keep track of them.
    The same situation with MET and AC/DC--there are various editions of those, and honestly, I really don't know what all the differences are between them. But I think it would be helpful to make note of them and what exactly each edition looks like and/or includes.

    Lots of variations, aside from artwork you now have to throw in incandescent vs led, metal back box vs wood. May be best just to make a note under each heading of the various editions vs each having its own entry.

    #38 4 days ago
    Quoted from Betelgeuse:

    The potential problem that I see with this system is with the rankings. Now there will be more rare editions that few people have access to, that now have their own profile. If all of the owners give the game high ratings, those titles will always be ranked at the top.

    To combat this id only use ratings from pro’s and premiums. LE’s are basically premiums, not much of a reason to also include them since that will inflate the ratings like you said.

    #39 1 day ago

    Betelgeuse asked a great question in another thread:

    "How did the (AC/DC) LE have separate ratings before now if the Premium/LE were lumped together as one game?"

    Answer:

    I use SQL to look for patterns in the review text such as "LE", "Limited", "LTBR", "BIBLE", " Let there be rock", "back in black" (not case sensitive) and text not like "prem" or "luci". Then I skim through those results to see if there are any false positives ie ("I like Deadpool LE better than this game").

    There's always a couple of reviews that are small novels that might be categorized incorrectly but I'd say the process is 95% accurate.

    The ads are a little easier as there is both a title and description to analyze, but you still get descriptions like "I'm selling this game in order to get a LE", so I have to read through them as well to eliminate false positives.

    That being said - if anyone sees an ad or review that's improperly linked, shoot me a PM and I'll get it corrected.

    #40 1 day ago
    Quoted from cconway84:

    Woz, Hobbit and Dialed In could use standard Le and Ce differentiation.

    Seconded. These should be added to the "to do" list.

    I see this as a good thing from an organizational and pricing perspective, but it does seem to be messing up ratings a bit. Maybe that will self-correct over time, but I think there is a tendency for people that buy LE's to rate them higher whether out of pride, excitement, or whatever.

    I'm also not sure how to properly rank games that have multiple scores. Sometimes there is a pretty big difference between the Pro, Premium, and LE scores but they are lumped into a single entry. Currently we take the highest score, but maybe it should be some sort of average or weighed average or something? I don't really want to see them split out into three separate entries as it sounds like that would be very cluttered.

    #41 18 hours ago
    Quoted from dboeren:

    Seconded. These should be added to the "to do" list.
    I see this as a good thing from an organizational and pricing perspective, but it does seem to be messing up ratings a bit. Maybe that will self-correct over time, but I think there is a tendency for people that buy LE's to rate them higher whether out of pride, excitement, or whatever.
    I'm also not sure how to properly rank games that have multiple scores. Sometimes there is a pretty big difference between the Pro, Premium, and LE scores but they are lumped into a single entry. Currently we take the highest score, but maybe it should be some sort of average or weighed average or something? I don't really want to see them split out into three separate entries as it sounds like that would be very cluttered.

    Perhaps Robin could work in a way to limit the impact of a handful of reviews on limited run machines?

    Example being if some LE has 25 ratings and averages a 9.8 then that should have a lesser weight towards the average

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