John > my opinons on decreasing your time investment once on route.

Full tear down and resleeve all coils and rebuild all mechs.
LEDs everywhere for reduced heat and need for replacement. I use primarily comet warm white frosted as they are cost effective and wrok great with nice color. LEDs are attractive to non-pinheads it seems.
I use the clear rubbers and they hold up much better than white or black.

DBV is not needed if .50 per game and easy access to change. It is a good idea to install and I liek the mars upstakers. I would look at all you other pins and I bet you have something that works on a different game somewhere?

We do .50 for nonDMD, .75 or 3/$2 for clean DMD, and $1 or 3/$2 for new DMD.

I have had good luck with PBL coin mechs. I have found most older mechs will work well if I run them through the ultra a few times and clean them up well. You can open them up all the way if you are concerned about slugs or bents and want them to get jammed less.

Depends on games and your player base but typically start at medium difficulty and then adjust. 1 min ball time, 3 min games should be a general range. Easier and people tend to lose interest. Harder and no fun for anyone.

I'd like to offer a slightly differing opinoin on the DBV -

It's not *necessary* - it never is, for sure.

However, it's a LOT easier to count bills than quarters. (At least when I was back in the routing business, Coinstar counters weren't in every 7/11..) So we'd price all games at $.50, and give a bouns credit at a $1, to get people to put in more money (in the form of bills..!)

Since you can get a used working on on eBay for cheap, I don't see a reason why you wouldn't wanna have one in there.

Can anyone recommend a certain model # of DBV?

DBV's and $1 per play, 3 for $2 seems to work, with 6 second ball save. I think that if you set the game to $.75 per play as many people wont play a game because they dont get their quarter change with a dollar bill. I like having more at a location so you can replace the one that makes less than the other, if noticable.
Allen

Any will really work. I personally am more familiar with MARS / MEI in any of the AE2000 models. (AE2400 - AE2800). However, you need one with the amusement interface (most AE's are dip-switch selectable), and NOT "MDB" interface, and 110v, for the best plug-play functionality in the pin. No recycler, no credit-card swipe.

This is the price that I did most of my games. (I will admit, I had one at $.25 play, and it gave 6 / $1, but NOT 3 / $.50)

Get a nice used MEI upstacker off of Ebay flashed for new $5's, it will take $1's too. Be sure it's for pinball 110AC, vending and touchscreen ones are for lower voltage. I got a nice one for $85 with free shipping.

I like the ones from Coin Acceptors Inc. Metal frame, gold tone color. The two moving cradles are nylon. They beat any non quarter, even squished nickels. Any mech will work fine, clean it, and be sure it works in the game, not just at your work bench. Line up chute and mech good.

White will break quicker in commercial use. And gets kind of grayish and makes the game look dirty.

Set to hard, can make easier. Play with the games auto percentage. Forget ball times. Get the cash box having the same amount every week.

75¢ or $1. 50¢ won't cover maintenance.

Best wishes on your endeavor John.

LTG : )™

John, I would also suggest 2 games at minimum. Travel time allone to keep games running is an important factor and it does not take much more to clean 2 or 4 then it deos to clean 1 once you are out there.

I have found that the first 4 to 6 weeks of a new pin going out seems to be the most trouble. After that the bugs get worked out and they seem to stay relatively stable as long as well maintained and kept clean.

IMHO, this thread represents some of the very best aspects of the Pinside community. All of you guys that are answering questions, making recommendations, and providing helpful advice and support for fellow Pinsiders putting new machines on location are to be commended. Bravo to all of you!

I will note that I have had even pinball regulars tell me that they are unwillingto go to the counter and ask fro change so they can play more pinball. At one of our locations there is no change machine but signs on games pointing to the counter and directing that staff will happily make change. Some pinheads don't want to bother staff, so if it is worth the added cost to you I would say that DBV and a change machine will always help. Unfortuynately, depending on play and with only 1 game that DBV make take you a while to pay off and a change machine could take you a whole year or more (they are expensive for the nice ones).

IME the best way to promote pinball is holding casual monthly events for friendly competition, signs on games where players can contact you for issues, and addressing the issues VERY quickly and then following uyp with players ot let them know it is fixed.

Add one of my WPC Power Fix Daughterboards for added reset insurance!

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets

sorry, but I would never condone using one of these boards in a commercial location (yet). For on location you need to fix a problem the right way and avoid added liability IMO. No offense but until your boards are proven for the long haul with many hours on in a commercial equivalent I find it very irresponsible to suggest them for commercial use.

Your board is a nice product for a home user that is always present when games are on, but a whole new variable in a location/commercial equation. I would feel awful if I ever had a game go up and cause real damage to a place or even possibly people, so I think it is my responsibility to make sure I fix any problem with a game back to the way the manufacturer intended rather than installing a work around.

I am part of a team of three guys who have pooled some personal games into the back of a friends coffee shop/bar. We've done a small league that meets there twice a month and we are about to start our second season. We also have turned a wall into a chalkboard where we write high scores, league updates and also have personal cell phone numbers to report problems. No problem exists for more than a day and if a game isn't working correctly or playing the way it should we turn it off. There is a DBV on one WPC95, and that seems to have helped that one a little, but not enough to offset the $125 cost for a long time. Which brings me to my next point...

These are in the back room and there is no coin changer. The owner refuses to put one in for unknown reasons (my guess is he thinks people will spend more on drinks if they have to go up to the counter to ask for quarters) and I've heard a bunch of people say the same sort of thing as you have. It's common sense that the easier you make it for people to spend money, the more they spend, but does anyone have empirical data I could show him on how coin changers increase earnings? Most of my observations have been casual people coming back with a a buck or two and when they run out they just leave. I imagine if you just stuck a $5 in a coin changer you'd not only play pinball longer but would probably grab another beer too.

Bought a DBV today... thanks for the lead, Mark!

ebay.com link: itm

I'll read up using Ken's Guide to figure out how to wire it into a game. The flintstones has a reimport coin door, but I've got a few WPC 2 slot doors that I can sub onto the game

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/installing-bill-acceptors-on-wpc-era-machines

The guide doesn't appear to cover this exact DBV and exact configuration, but hopefully I can figure it out, and volunteer a few pics along the way.

Good grab! I would wrap those lose wires up before installation, so that they don't continue to rub against the door when it's opened.

Installation is very, very easy, especially if your game already has the 3-pin Molex 110v connector.

I have a cabinet harness from a junked game that has a 3x3 square connector for a DBV - is that what you are referencing?

I think it is a black and orange 3 pin connector which is the Center slot in the menu. Worst case get the power chord with 2 yellow wires that you can install into the connector for the door or solder it to the coin door switches. ( happy controls)

Yup! That's the main plug - it contains many pins, of which in the pin are used ground, 110v AC (2), and common and coin. See below..

That's correct (I mistyped above) - the 3 pin connector needs to be connected to the coin door interface board somehow, likely for Coin switch #4, which is the 'default' slot for $1. Connect the black to GND (on the CDI, not earth strap on the cabinet!), and the orange to one of the coin inputs. (Any will work, agian, #4 is the normal one for $1.)

If you need pictures, let me know.

The changer debate reminded me of the Drive-in gameroom I used to frequent as a kid. They sold change from the counter probably to keep an eye on us and because we'd have to buy something. They were great if we bought something, but we'd get sent on our way when we stayed too long. And forget about it if you sneaked in a soda!!

A changer may increase game earnings, but your typical location owner is more concerned with selling drinks or a burger. From a business standpoint, this makes sense. You want the most profitable customers taking up your space. A changer decreases the odds of a possible sale at the counter.

And that's why it's important to have a DBV on your games!

I understand your theory but it probably depends on the location. In other words, if the location is run and worked by the owner(s) themselves, what you say is probably true. If the location is instead manned by the "average" employee, they don't want to be bothered in any way in regards to dealing with quarters, either by giving change directly, or having to stock a cash draw with extra rolls. Just too much hassle for their paycheck. In these cases, a good, working, used Bill Changer can greatly pay off. Obviously, many locations can't justify the purchase of a brand new changer.

For the cost of a used working DBV on ebay, it is a good alternative and investment. You can always get most of your investment back if you end up selling the games. Just remember to keep the cover plate inside the game.

Since we're talking about DBVs, it made me want to go out and see what I had. I threw several old bad parts away, but have these. If anyone's interested, $5 + shipping for both of these non-working (but likely fixable) acceptors:

#1: AE-2651-U5 - Has the Flashport, but has not been updated to the latest $5. Board may be bad, or the motor assembly may be bad. On power up, the bill path LEDs will blink momentarily, and it sounds like the bill path motor tries to operate for a split second before the process resets. Has matching S/Ns.

#2: AE-2411-U5 - No flashport, this one is an older model. When it was working last year, it did accept $1s and $2s, though. Now, it boots up fine - both motors work, but when a bill is inserted, it dies. No motor activates and the bezel LEDs go out. Then, randomly, it seems to try to stack a bill. On bootup, no error codes flash, but as soon as a bill is inserted, it reports a bill path block. All S/Ns match. The bill in the shot is not included.

Since I don't operate anymore, and only have the one TZ in my collection (WCS coming soon..!), I have no need for these, so I also have no desire to sit down and interchange parts to make a working one.

Drop me a PM if you want them, if I don't hear from anyone by this coming Wednesday (1/28), I'll just toss 'em. Figured I'd see if anyone here wanted 'em for parts.

Edit: They are claimed! I hope they can be fixed up and put back into service!
--Mike

Both problems you describe can often be caused by a failed Electrolytic Cap in the power supply section (at least for the 120VAC models). I am at home so I can't tell you the "C" location but it is a 470ufd at 35VDC as I recall. Probably the largest cap on the boards. Even if the ufd tests within limits, its a good idea to replace it for the first time any time an MEI goes through the shop. Very common failure.

This bad cap will: cause the DBV to begin to power up and then die, or, attempt to turn a motor (stacker) on and then die, or allow you to get to the point of inserting a bill and then die (and then reboot and spit the bill back out). Sometimes, even a totally dead one can be fixed by changing the cap. But usually when it gets really bad, it takes out other components in the power supply section.

Hey - Thanks for this. I'll look into it after Wednesday, if noone else wants them (since I offered them, gotta stick to my word..). I'd LIKE to upgrade the one in my TZ to a flashport/later model, and this AE26xx one was the only one I had before I sold off all my games.

(Interestingly, I never ran into any issues with my DBVs when they were out - other than people trying to shove other pieces of paper in there and causing it to shut down. Though, I also only had games out for about 5 years, so perhaps that wasn't long enough for a cap like this to fail.)

Cheers -
Mike

So, the DBV arrived today, and I grabbed an old US 2 slot WPC door off the shelf.

Tried to mate the two together, and something's not right. The 'snout' of the DBV won't fit through the hole on the door.

Do I need to get a different snout for the DBV? Or is the hole in the door not big enough?

I've got some new P2K 2 slot doors that are very similar to this one, don't know if the bottom entry hole is larger or not.

IMG_5480.JPG IMG_5481.JPG IMG_5482.JPG IMG_5483.JPG

Figured it out.

While this door is a newer door, there are apparently 2 different styles. 1 style has a square lower opening, the other one has an opening with a notch on top that runs most of the length of the opening.

For this acceptor and faceplate, I need the other style door. Not a problem, as I have some.

Here are the covers, to compare

IMG_5484.JPG

Yup, you figured it out. The first door where it wouldn't fit is for AL4 acceptor, without a stacker. Bills would get sucked in and then land flat over the coin box. Was a friggin' pain in the butt collecting money.

Do any of you have a contract of some sort to prove ownership of your pins in case the business goes bust and assets are seized? I'm a little worried about my location. Is there any language or advice you can share?

I'd definitely have something inside the game with your name, company name, contact info, etc.

And receipts for the game to prove it's yours.

LTG : )™

Cactus Jacks just posted an earnings breakdown here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cactus-jacks-collections-report

What great insight. I added my numbers into that thread too, but thought I'd repost here as well.

Barcade in a college town that also has the busiest dance floor on the weekends. Most patrons in their 20s and 30s. TWD, ST, TSPP, and LOTR are 75 cents, everything else is 50. Percentage is the percentage for that game of the total coin drop over an identical 3 month period (same lineup throughout).

Walking Dead: 13.5%
The Addams Family: 13.3%
Star Trek: 12.2%
Simpsons Pinball Party: 10.9%
Attack from Mars: 10.2%
Lord of the Rings: 10.1%
Spider-Man: 10.0%
Scared Stiff: 8.2%
Fish Tales: 6.8%
Evel Knievel: 4.8%

About halfway through, Fish Tales was even lower. Then I started telling regulars I was going to take it away, and it has since rebounded a bit.

What % of your earnings comes from bills on games with bill acceptors.
I do the math on occasion on some games and it's typically 30% on games,
even with a change machine around the corner as well.
There are some exceptions where it's really low bills and mostly quarters though.
Basically, it doesn't hurt to have a bill acceptor when possible

I don't have any bill acceptors.

Pins are in a dedicated room (that you wouldn't even be near if you weren't there to play pinball), with a change machine. It's also a barcade, so people walk in the door with the expectation that they'll filling their pockets with quarters. That said, I might as well test one out sometime.

If I had pins that were out on their own, like just one machine sitting alone somewhere, then I'd definitely try out a DBV.

If you are bringing any amount of money the DBV are nice just because bills are much easier to deal with than pounds of quarters.

You can find nice flashable upstackers for ~$80 each (sometimes much less) and they are an easy install on all of your newer games. They are a bit of an additional investment but are nice for the saved hassle of less coins.

But even with DBVs, I'm still going to have to weigh quarters anyway...so I'd be introducing more work. (It takes me the same amount of time to weigh the quarters for each game, regardless of how many there are).

That is true. We have to roll quarters which is a PITA.

The real benefit is that I have found the DBVs do help slightly with drop in any of the games that have 3/$2 play. Casual players seem to be more apt to drop in $2 in bills then 8 quarters.

Also, coin mechs get jams so having another way to accept money and keep games running is always good.

It would be a cheap experiement for you to try with one game.

I think this was discussed a few pages back - but yes, I also agree that DBVs are almost a necessity. (*Especially* with $.75 or $1 games..) I couldn't just 'weigh' quarters.. I had to roll them. So getting a used bill counter ($25 at a Gov surplus auction back in the 90's) and DBVs made collection days and paperwork go by much faster.

Thanks. I'll definitely try it at some point.

My method is pretty fast: write down the machine's audit for "recent earnings", weigh those quarters on a scale to confirm that the numbers match, dump quarters in a garbage can, repeat. (The bar goes around later and feeds the change machines from the garbage can). After doing all games, reset the audits.

The audits always match, except for TSPP, which is often way off for some reason that I haven't investigated.

Good Point...I just put my first pin on route, a DH and added a bill validator. It's only been out a week but will be checking on it today to see how it did.

From reading previous posts from different Operators it just makes sense on installing a validator. It not only makes it easier on the business where the pin is placed but also your customers.

I have learned the hard way that when checking on your games you need to actually put money through the slots before play testing, rather than just putting on service credits.

Ex: 1 time I cleaned all games, left and got a call 15min later for a double coin jam. I wasted a trip back when I should have checked the coins

ex: another time there was a factory reset on an older game and the default reverted to .25 per game. Needless to say that meant cheap play for everyone for almost the entire month and almost no coin drop for all the wear and tear.

This is a good point. Because I rely on the audits, I started out checking coin mechs by turning off the game, opening the coin door, and putting quarters through. Then I realized that having the coin door open isn't perfect because the mechs hang at a different angle when the door is open. So I started putting coins through with the door closed and the machine off. This next time, I'll do it with the machines on, right after I do the collection...since I'm about to reset the audits anyway.

Purdy lights...

image.jpg

Great idea! I bet that saves time! Could have used that tonight! Ha

What do you guys use for tracking earnings? I've been using a Google spreadsheet, but the longer I use it, the more unruly it gets, especially when games get swapped in/out.

Aside from just earnings, I also usually jot down average ball times, and make other notes (ie: LED upgrade for TAF).

I like to see daily averages for the room over time, the % of the drop that each game is making, how changes/adjustments/league/tournaments affect things, etc.

I'm actually considering building my own web app for it, but curious what other solutions are out there.

A google spreadsheet with some really cool features built in.

We do not track to that level of detail but still have fun with the data. Granted you have a much larger player base than we do.

Hit me with some specifics.

Do I? Sounds like you're pulling in people from afar, but I'm surrounded by other great locations that draw people away. Getting around 15 players for both league and tourneys at the moment.

basically just built so we can drop in basic data and it auto calculates and build graphs so we can look at trends over time.

It also comes in handy for tracking our time and mileage, stuff that comes in handy during tax time but also makes us see how little is make for the effort

I am sure what you have is already more sophisticated than what we are using.

I think you have a pretty steady stream of players in your area. We have a slow build but WI does not have as active a player base as CO in my observation.

Just a spreadsheet I made. I put each year on a new tab. It keeps track of each game, and weekly/monthly totals. It also computes my sales tax and the location's share. I keep a running total over the years of what each machine has netted me so I know what it has earned over its lifetime.

I don't track ball times or anything else. I'll look at the data occasionally. And I'll occasionally do an audit dump on Stern games that support it. It is interesting, but not my main concern.

I use a Klopp coin counter. I can fill a roll of quarters in 2 seconds. I got mine from a local op that bought it new in 1974 and still works great. The Klopp company has pretty much been building the same designs for 80+ years and still offers parts and repair. I also have a new electric counter but like using the Klopp hand crank more.

20150529_200429-1.jpg

I also use plastic counter tubes for small stops.

http://cgi.ebay.com?ViewItem&item=251554968445

Will a 2400 series upstacker fit on a White Water? I know on the later games, there was a notch cut in the front of the playfield to clear the magazine...

Yes, but the magazine has to be 500 or less.