Remember back in 1980 when a pinball game still cost a quarter? Well that $.25 is now worth $.75 today.
Here's a quick reminder of what $1.00 back in "the day" (whenever that is for you) is worth today...
2014=1x
1987=2x
1980=3x
1976=4x
1973=5x
1970=6x
1967=7x
1959=8x
1951=9x
1948=10x
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
-mof

So in the mid 90s when pinball typically cost .50/credit or 2.00 for 5 credits that inflates to today money at .75 per play or 3.00 for 5 plays.

This tells me that .75 or 3 for $2 is a very fair on route price for a nice pinball game in 2014. Is that what most people are doing?

We plan to have out a
STpro
TAF
FunHouse
SpaceShuttle
soon in a single location. All games will be clean and playing 100%. What would you charge for each of those games?

I would charge $1, 3/$2 for ST and $.50 for everything else.

I would consider running a TOPS tournament on ST.

It would probably be more accurate to use 50 cents instead of 25 cents in your example, or use 1981 vs 1980. Black Knight came out in late 1980 at 50 cents a play. After that, other pins followed suit. That would translate to over $1.25 a play today instead of 75 cents.

Back in the day, ops were not shy about raising prices on pins. I remember one game for a dime or three games for a quarter back in 1975. At the same time, some locations charged 2 games for a quarter, but gave out five balls. A couple years later, it was one game for a quarter, then 50 cents a play. All in the period of about six years.

I remember in 1983 deploying Dragons Lair for 50 cents and people standing in long lines to play it.

My initial thought was ST and TAF both at .75 or 3for$2, FH and SS at .50.

There is one other place locally that has a STpro and they charge .75 of 3 for $2 but they do not take care of games and that one will likely not be playable in a month or so?

You can always lower the price. New games should be $1.00 a play, if you want to offer a discount to get that extra buck, great.

I would suggest new or newer games at $1.00 per play/ 3 plays for $2.00, other DMDs at 75 cents per play/4 plays for $2.00, alphanumeric and solid state at 50 cents per play, no discount. If you want to charge 50 cents a play for DMDs, no need to offer a discount.

If you have a game in exceptional condition, or a rare game, charge accordingly. I had a proto Banzai Run in outstanding condition out on location at 75 cents a play, it earned very well.

People don't seem to have any problem charging someone $5000 to buy their pinball machine, but are reluctant to ask them to pay a $1.00 to play the same game, go figure.

Thanks for the tips! This is a new and fun/scary experience at this point.

Totally agree, Brian. In fact, my pricing tiers are similar to yours:

New Sterns: $1/play or 3 plays for $2
WPC or older DMD, including BoP: $0.75/play or 4 plays for $2
System 11/alphanumeric: $0.50/play or 3 plays for $1
Early Solid State: $0.25/play flat rate

I actually only operate one early SS game (Mata Hari) and I can't charge more than $0.25 if I wanted to.

I have one DMD (Getaway) I operate at factory default pricing ($0.50/play or 3 plays for $1) due to the location it is in, the limited amount of play it receives, and that I am getting much better than a 50/50 split.

Another bit of advice, if you buy a brand new game, or expensive older game, explain this to the location owner. Often times, they realize the considerable expense of bringing something new into their establishment, and you can get better than 50/50, at least for the first 6 months or something. If a new machine is bringing in more customers or getting existing customers to stay longer, and they realize this, it's win/win.

Finally, when possible, purchase a bill acceptor; your earnings will certainly increase noticeably in a good location.

-Mark

Brixie's in Brookfield, IL, has three pins, and two of the three are usually new or newer Sterns:
Metallica LE
Star Trek Pro
Medieval Madness (restored with color DMD)

All games there are $1/play or 6 plays for $5, and all have bill acceptors which take $5 bills.

The machines are well maintained, and I have no problem putting a $5 bill in each machine when I visit.

-Mark

I'm one of the few operators in my area that still route a sizable amount of pin's. Like many of you have already posted they are very expensive to operate. I started several years back retiring all of my (A) title machines because they are worth way to much to get beat up day after day on location. I started going late 80's to early 90's titles. The key is keeping the machines up the way there suppose to be. If there not right the real players will stop dropping money in the cash box and the machines won't make what they should. Also the right places with the right age group is what will drive the money for pin's. Everyone will laugh at this but I set out a few months ago an Alien Poker that we clear coated and play's killer and set a Kiss right next to it. It's crazy what those pin's make a week and next to both of them I have a Demo Man that hasn't come close to earning what those two have. I also change my stuff as much as I can to keep things fresh and revenue steady. I'm also lucky that I have a very good tech that I keep busy just on making sure the pin's on location are staying up weekly. Trying just to run a bunch of pin's will not make you a gold mine but if you keep them running right there is still money to be made.

I'd be curious to hear what some seasoned ops do in an attempt to bullet-proof their machines for location use.

Tricks of the trade???

I also would like to hear this.

other questions > 1 location 4 nice pins, what is your key to swap out a game? how often or is it based on coin-drop over time?

replay amount? > progressive I assume when possible. When progressive is not possible I assume high, but not too high

tilts vs outlanes? > Have you found a good combination of tilt vs outlane? I can see players of course always want loose tilts to bang them around but that is rough on machines. I tend to play with tight tilts and middle outlanes at home but not sure if that will work on route. Do you have something you find will work well for a place that will likely have regular players but need to draw in new people?

I replace stand up targets and put stiffer foam behind ones that get hit a lot. I have a rivet press and usually only replace the plastic if the leaf switch portion is still good. I often use Stern anti-loft stand up brackets instead of Williams as they are much stronger and more robust. Plus you get less airballs.

I put Cointaker warm white retros in the GI to cut down on heat and current draw and bulb replacement. That being said, they do sometimes fail but overall they've help up pretty good.

Other than that it is just making sure everything is in good shape and tight. Flippers need to be 100% and rebuilt because they are going to get hammered. Flipper buttons need to be clean and not stick. Check common problem areas on boards (HV section of WPC games, GI connectors, PS connectors). If you have any little issues, you need to take care of them. They will become big issues on location. Stuff you live with at home and pull the glass to correct will not fly on location, you've gotta have the bugs and ball hangs worked out.

One example is shooter rods. You've probably only cleaned a shooter rod once at your home, and that was the first time it was dirty. On location, EVERY kid repeatedly pulls the shooter rod. They'll be gunked up in one day. If you have a shooter rod or sleeve that is in any way sluggish, you'd better fix it or put in new parts because it will quickly become unusable.

Another thing you never think about at home is coin mechs and coin switches. They need to be clean and work reliably, obviously! Plus every kid pushes the coin return buttons, so they need to be clean and work.

"I often use Stern anti-loft stand up brackets instead of Williams as they are much stronger and more robust"

what are these? do you have a link?

TIA

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1673

A good Operator trick to revive a game that is slowing down in earnings is to put a big sign on the top:

"COMPLETELY REBUILT FLIPPERS - ALL NEW RUBBER"

Keep it up for a month or two after a rehab.

Players who have not played the game in months will be drawn to it.

I have my Monopoly on location at the club house where my parents live. All proceeds go to help recovering addicts. I have it at a quarter per game. It takes in about $20 a month at this point. I initially had it priced at 50 cents a game and 3/$1 but the old folks were complaining it cost too much per game. My dad says they said things like I can remember when it was 2 games for a quarter.

Just as an FYI for the various OPs here in San Francisco, the pricing is usually $0.75 per play and either 3 or 5 ball (mostly 3 ball but a few places with 5-ball). The newest Sterns are $1/play, 3 for $2. Also at locations with various eras of games, they are all priced the same for the most part (Funhouse, Sharkey's Shootout, Medieval Madness and Theatre of Magic are all $0.75/5-ball at my local bar, and Metallica is $1/3 for $2). The Sharkey's gets the least play but it's also at the far end of a dead end area where the pins are but I am not sure the distribution of revenue on the rest since I see all of the machines getting a decent amount of play.

On the OP side I have talked to a few folks who operate and here's some notes:

- two surprises of games that will sit in a location and outlast everything else are Addams Family and Batman Dark Knight (this particular op has a lot of experience and has put tons of machines on route so this isn't just from having 20 pins out but over hundreds of pins).

- 3-4 pins is what it takes to have a location become a "destination location" (3 is borderline, 4 is better) - this is pretty obvious since I know at my local bar, there are five machines and often 2-3 are being played (almost always by groups of 2-4 people) so if you don't have enough games, people may leave (that's when I inevitably play Sharkey's Shootout

- a 'fun' game is more important than a perfectly maintained game (for revenue). I think several people have mentioned this above. Related to this is having a decent ball save time for the casual player, and not making it all PAPA tourney style (wide outlanes etc) since that makes the game brutal to the casual player.

Location makes a big difference. I've moved a game from the end of a row that was a prominent location to the other end, which was next to a wall. The amount the game brought in went down and stayed down after I moved it.

While I like the idea of charity, people having a problem paying $0.50 or 3/$1 for a nicely maintained modern machine are a huge problem. The pinball industry not raising prices for 25 years are part of the problem as well.

The last time pins were commonly 2 plays for $0.25 was probably the mid 70's. As has been pointed out in several threads, taking into account inflation, that would be the same as 2 plays for $1.20 today. $0.50 and 3/$1 is *dirt cheap* for any modern pin.

If you say it's pulling in $20/month, that's only 80 plays at $0.25/play, and less than three plays per day...if you're lucky, that covers the electricity.

-Mark

It would be nice to have a closed forum for operators to discuss things like details on drop distribution, contracts, location splits, tax compliance, ideal ball/game time targets, etc that aren't always appropriate for public distribution. If pinside isn't the right place for that I can create a closed Facebook group...

A Yahoo group would be better so we don't have to join Facebook

I certainly won't use Facebook...Yahoo, perhaps...or Googlesomethingorother.

-Mark

Maybe someone else can create the Yahoo group then - I struggle with the Yahoo groups interface every time I try to do anything with it.

I'm a member of some closed Facebook groups where people have created accounts just for that group and it worked out pretty well. The nice thing is we have strong vetting in place for most member since a Facebook network is hard to fake and the guys who only created the one account we know well enough to grant the exception.

Something built into pinside would be great...

suggest to robin and see what he can do/will do. If not then I could ask over on our WIPinball group to see if we can have a blocked group page. We have similar types of password protected subforums over there for the different leagues. I have no idea if the sight owner would allow me to set up an operators only forum or not.

Preference is definately to have something here since this is the place and it would be easy. I know they have a moderators only forum on Pinside so there is the functionality at least.

Forgive my ignorance as I have never operated a game before. When you guys buy a game for your route, are you able to deduct the entire purchase price of the game for that tax year? Or do you depreciate it over the course of a few years? It is tax deductible, right?

It all depends on your states/province/federal gov't tax law.

I can write some % of a pin off every year, but only on NiB pins. Used pins have already depreciated to 0, typically.

You own the machines at UpDown? Wow, I would personally like to thank you for doing something like this for the pinball scene in Des Moines. I go there every time I get back to Iowa and those machines are the reason, well maintained and a great entertaining selection.

Do you have anything to do with the new barcade that has popped up in the same building as Hessen Haus?

Pulled all my pinball machines off my route. I ran them for years. I got to the point were they became to valuable so I pulled them. at the end I only place ATTACK from MARS because I have two of them. I am glad there are coin- operated Amusement owners that still keep it going. I run as many Digital Juke Boxes as I can these days.

100_0200.JPG
100_0202.JPG
100_0203.JPG
100_0205.JPG
100_0206.JPG

Most of these questions will be answered with some live location experience. There is no such thing as "set it and forget it" when it comes to pinball machines.

If earnings keep dropping on a game, rotate it out. People will get tired of playing the same game and look forward to something new. Some games just don't earn well. Several years ago I had a brand new 24 on location, it was beautiful and played great. Nevertheless, it was an absolute earnings dog so out it went. If you are planning on placing 4 games out there, be prepared to have more games available to rotate in from time to time. There are exceptions, but normally earnings will drop and plateau after three months or so.

I always set a game at factory settings and make changes after I see how it does in the first week or so. Factory too easy for your player group? Move posts higher and/or increase pitch, tighten slings. Factory too hard for your player group? Lower posts, decrease sling sensitivity, lower pitch, change some game settings to easier, consider 5 ball over 3 ball--did that with Iron Man and earnings went up as a result, game time only increased by another 90 seconds.

Progressive replay is a big help on newer games so someone can't just camp out and play all day on their first dollar. On older games, you may have to just check your audits and see where things settle after you install the game. I remember placing a restored Bally Mystic on factory settings and after the first week replay percent was near 40%. There were some strong classics players capitalizing on completing the grid and winning three replays and then running up their score on the resulting bonus. I left the grid replay setting intact, but doubled the replay score so just completing the grid wasn't enough to win an additional replay on points. Replay percent dropped down to an acceptable 15-20% and earnings went up.

Tilt settings can be tricky. Too sensitive and players will get mad because multiball play or spirited flipper action might tilt them out. Too loose and they will move the game all over the floor. I always set the tilts so simple nudging does not trigger a warning, though shoving the game around will trigger a warning. Keep in mind, someone can always beat up a game after a tilt has happened or the game is over. Tight tilts won't stop anyone from doing that, and might be enough to piss them off.

Setting up games is probably my favorite part of pinball, so I'm really looking forward to setting machines for location players.

In a former job, I would set pins and tees on a golf course. It's really interesting how small adjustments can change so much about someone else's experience. I'm looking forward to seeing what adjustments may have a role in earnings, and I can't wait to get my fingers on the real pulse of the state of pinball!

I look at this as a donation to the community, even if just for a little while; I don't expect any earnings, and I see it as a hobby. I love data and analysis, and I can't think of a more interesting subject than pinball!

Thanks for all the advice BB. Really appreciated.

There is a group of us that are working together to start a new location in town and I am hoping it will be a lot of fun. I think we all have very realistic expectations that this is about bringing pinball back on location and if we can break even after insurance, fees, tax, etc... then it will be a win just to finally have a place in town to play 4 pins at once (besides private collections). We also see it as a benefit of having a few guys since that gives a very large pool of games for rotating purposes. Also creates a fun spot where each of us can come play a unique collection that is a conglomerate of our personal collections.

I've got 5 pins in our arcade now and piking up a WoZ today. Right now they are priced at 50 cents a play and I think that's right for what we have. Maybe the Woz should be more? My main reasoning is that at 50 cents parents plunk their kids down and tell them to hit the flippers as fast as they can (and a lot of adults do the same thing) and maybe it will help not be the machine of choice for that kind of play?

Pricing suggestions if all these are 50 cents? Or is it strange to have one that's priced higher?

It's in an arcade with 70 games, all the videos are one token while the pinball and sit down drivers are two. There are bonus tokens for 10 and 20 buck buys so it's not like it's still not a good value even is Woz was $1 or .75

pins.jpg

Put WOZ at at least 75 cents. People will pay it, WOZ is new, different, and stands out. Plus it is more expensive. You can always lower the price later. It is harder to raise the price. My WOZ is $1/play. Other games are 50 cents except Tri Zone, which is a quarter.

Isn't the whole point of WOZ to attract new location action? It shouldn't be set at a bargain price, imo.

I would price WOZ at $1.00 per play. If someone only wants to pay 50 cents to play pinball, you have other choices for them. If they want to play WOZ, they need to cough up $1.00. You can always lower the price later. If you don't offer it at a premium to your other games, they will play WOZ all day long at that 50 cent price point and let the other pins sit. I am sure you bought the game as an attraction and moneymaker, not just to see money move around the room while players wear out your most expensive pin.

People are going to complain about having to pay more $$, just accept that as a fact of life. There will be players that appreciate the fact you have brought in one of the newest most exciting games available. They will gladly pay $1.00 for the chance to play. You can offer six plays for $5.00, or whatever discount you want in the settings.

I would not charge less than $1 for WOZ. Especially as there are other options for two tokens.

I love that location pinball is making a comeback of sorts!

Back in 1989, I had 4 machines on location at a pizza place in Carlisle, PA.

Had 2 pins and 2 video games: Fire!, Hyperball, Tron (video) and Heavy Barrel (video).

I had to get an amusement permit from the borough, which was $30 if I remember correctly. I split 50/50 with the pizza place, and got about $20 a week. There was an actual arcade in the same mall, so that was an issue, but it was still a fun little project.

Not profitable for me, but given the right location, and the machines I have now, l could see giving it another run

Chris

That may work, but I won't do it. To me, saying that would imply that the flippers were crap before the rebuild. Keeping the flippers working properly is part of regular maintenance. Not something that should be advertised. A potential customer should assume the flippers are working properly. Not need a sign to tell them, IMO.

What kind of place is this? Is it just the arcade? Also, you mention kids. Are most all your customers kids (casual players)? Need more details. From what you've said so far, your arcade sounds ridiculously cheap. Are there any apartments nearby for rent? d

As others have mentioned, I wouldn't price OZ under $1 a play. I won't price any of my pins under 75 cents a play. They're worth it.

It's only good as a last resort before swapping a game from a location.

Obviously players can tell if a game has crap flippers - don't let them get crappy.

But when you say "rebuilt", you trigger something in their deep reptilian brain that makes them want to play a game they normally don't play.

It totally works.

It's an arcade attached to a video game store, mostly used and a lot of vintage stuff.

We started with a row of arcade games because it gave me a reason to buy games I wanted and now we've rented out the place next foot and have 70 odd games. We get a lot of families, a lot of adults in their 40's-50's remember the games they've played and a lot of groups of students.

It's cheap, yes, but runs on tokens and most people get 5, 10 or 20 worth at a time, it does really well.

Thanks, all, for the advice. I'll start it at 4 tokens and see how it goes.

50 cents is fine if you're getting 100% of the earnings, or similar. Otherwise, it's way too cheap.

For WOZ, I would charge at least $0.75, even if you are keeping all of that $0.75. Otherwise, $1 should be the minimum, IMO.

-Mark

And some day.....SOME DAY...I will get to your place!

I love your facebook posts. They make me want to take a road trip!

Hope it is going well for you!

Chris

I'm sorry, but as a location player, I'm NOT going to pay more than .50/game, especially if they are tightened up to the point that they are no longer fun. When I am paying for beer & food at the establishment, the games are just there to bring me in & keep me on site for a while longer.
That's just like my opinion man.

EDITED > never mind as you are obviously trolling since this thread is a discussion among operators you are not worth the reply

We have 6-1/2 pins at our laundromat (1/2 being a very rare Baby Pac-Man). They pull in about $200/week total.

image.jpg

We also have 3 more at a pinhead bar, 2 at a rec center, and we recently moved one into a bigger bar (that will eventually get more as well). That one is pulling in $50 a week now. Pinball is alive and kicking in my town thanks to us!

image.jpg

That is great Crash and thanks for doing your part! Some lucky pinheads in your town!

That's awesome Crash! Get some blinds on that laundromat window!
Whatever is to the right od Letlal Weapon 3 will be subject to really bad cabinet fade

Thanks for putting good games on location!
Chris