(Topic ID: 257420)

Opening Flight 2000 new software up to the community


By slochar

41 days ago



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  • 116 posts
  • 30 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 days ago by slochar
  • Topic is favorited by 21 Pinsiders

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There are 116 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
#101 11 days ago

So, the issue turned out to be a change I'd made to the way the score gets handled directly (as opposed to being queued, which happens in the background when nothing else is going on, even though the routine uses the same score routine) - there was no byte savings in doing it the 'new' way (checking the tilt lamp via the pigs routines vs. just doing it in assembly) - the value of B that the spinner routine was expecting would range randomly. (I'm used to the way williams did it in pinbol, where they always specifically save the values of A and B every trip into and out of their interpreter). It is possible that this bug was in the 9 ball test code as well, although it depends on if there were any "score $<somevalue> followed directly by anything that was expecting the value of B to be the same. Meteor7 didn't have this issue as the score routines were semi-different.

Still have to finish up the skill shot issue (Lane Lamp stays lit on the lane although it puts it on the left side, and spots the next letter correctly, and once you collect blast off the letters B and O start to spot the drop bank in error), and add the knocker code (and a physical knocker, to test....) Once the skill shot issue is fixed I'll ship the beta binary rom off to @coyote to put on his website so people can download it and try it out.

I still have to add in the no-relock during multiball, dips to turn on/off any of these features, and I'd like to add a feature that resets the 5-4-3-2-1 progress once you complete blast off and get 2 balls locked (It was always strange to me that you could get, all systems ready, commence countdown.... and the countdown was at 1 if that's where you had built the drops down to....)

If there's some dips available I'll try and put the right spinner reset to 2000 although I don't think I'll ever personally use this.... and yeah, I have to add in the spinner counters..... but then I might just call it 'done', at that point. (Is anything ever really 'done' though??)

#102 9 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

Glad I got the eeproms so I don't have to periodically load up 40 into my eraser like I used to

I'd like to buy a few of these. Where is the best place to buy from?

#103 9 days ago
Quoted from DRDAVE:I'd like to buy a few of these. Where is the best place to buy from?

The 512K EEPROM in a dip28 package is obsolete but used pulls are available in bulk from many different Chinese sellers. I haven't really had any troubles with them and I have used a lot.

W27C512 100pcs at around $0.40 each
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32970618143

10pcs @ around $0.50 each
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32831745108.html

#104 9 days ago

I got mine from Amazon so I paid a little more - I think they were new as well although it doesn't really matter with eeproms as long as they erase and reprogram. Look at that, pinball eproms, we were recycling before it was fashionable.

#105 9 days ago
Quoted from chubtoad13:

I don’t think there should be a lane change in this game. It doesn’t make sense to collect a letter by rolling over a switch on a different letter.

The original design (Gamatron which F2k was born from) had a way to go back up top outside of the ball walker. I think some form of lane change makes sense. Not sure I would add to bottom though. This is a tough call.

#106 9 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

So, the issue turned out to be a change I'd made to the way the score gets handled directly (as opposed to being queued, which happens in the background when nothing else is going on, even though the routine uses the same score routine) - there was no byte savings in doing it the 'new' way (checking the tilt lamp via the pigs routines vs. just doing it in assembly) - the value of B that the spinner routine was expecting would range randomly. (I'm used to the way williams did it in pinbol, where they always specifically save the values of A and B every trip into and out of their interpreter). It is possible that this bug was in the 9 ball test code as well, although it depends on if there were any "score $<somevalue> followed directly by anything that was expecting the value of B to be the same. Meteor7 didn't have this issue as the score routines were semi-different.
Still have to finish up the skill shot issue (Lane Lamp stays lit on the lane although it puts it on the left side, and spots the next letter correctly, and once you collect blast off the letters B and O start to spot the drop bank in error), and add the knocker code (and a physical knocker, to test....) Once the skill shot issue is fixed I'll ship the beta binary rom off to @coyote to put on his website so people can download it and try it out.
I still have to add in the no-relock during multiball, dips to turn on/off any of these features, and I'd like to add a feature that resets the 5-4-3-2-1 progress once you complete blast off and get 2 balls locked (It was always strange to me that you could get, all systems ready, commence countdown.... and the countdown was at 1 if that's where you had built the drops down to....)
If there's some dips available I'll try and put the right spinner reset to 2000 although I don't think I'll ever personally use this.... and yeah, I have to add in the spinner counters..... but then I might just call it 'done', at that point. (Is anything ever really 'done' though??)

Thanks for doing this. Thought about changing Seawitch? pleazzee...

#107 9 days ago
Quoted from Classic_Stern:

The original design (Gamatron which F2k was born from) had a way to go back up top outside of the ball walker. I think some form of lane change makes sense. Not sure I would add to bottom though. This is a tough call.

I originally suggested lane change top and bottom but most people thought it would make the game too easy. Regardless, it requires physically modding the game which is out of the scope of this project.

The multiball launch is the main attraction so I want to be able get it at least once a game. I’m on board with the ability to spot letters as a feature that could be turned off for those who don’t want it.

#108 7 days ago
Quoted from Classic_Stern:

The original design (Gamatron which F2k was born from) had a way to go back up top outside of the ball walker. I think some form of lane change makes sense. Not sure I would add to bottom though. This is a tough call.

Bill do you have any concrete evidence on the Gamatron story or just your hunch? I have a hunch that 9 ball was originally supposed to be a single ball game and they whacked the multiball stuff in later, but that's just a hunch. I know you've been touting the gamatron theory for a couple years, but I think it's just a theory. Gamatron does flow nicely but the sheer real estate taken up by the ball maze I don't think they would have gone for.

There's no switches available for lane change anyway without rewiring something, so it would have had to have been some kind of automatic lane change - which turned out to really suck in the game. (You'd get multiple completions of BLAST and OFF.... it just confused the game too much as the lane changes)

Quoted from Classic_Stern:

Thanks for doing this. Thought about changing Seawitch? pleazzee...

I don't think there's anything wrong with Seawitch's code as shipped from the factory, except maybe something for completing consecutive loops. What should be changed? I'm prepared to disagree

#109 7 days ago

How about a more realistic rocket engine sound when launching multiball? Multiball lightshow?

#110 7 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

I don't think there's anything wrong with Seawitch's code as shipped from the factory, except maybe something for completing consecutive loops. What should be changed? I'm prepared to disagree

This was discussed some years ago and one thing I mentioned was the riptide shot. That’s about as worthless as the saucer in Blackout. Great effect, but not worth shooting for.

I remember making some ridiculous suggestions, which would have resulted in an incredible scoring imbalance. But adding some rules to riptide would make it more than just a drop target game.

Maybe score based on the number of drop targets currently down instead of each individual drop that has been collected during the ball. A la the spinner in Meteor. Multiply it by the number of stars lit. With one target left standing on each bank the riptide would be worth 8K. Collect all the stars and that jumps to 32K along with a lucrative spinner. Lite riptide for 2X and now it’s worth 64K....worth shooting repeatedly.

#111 6 days ago

Interesting realization in the code... I was wondering why they were setting lamp $3a when paying out a replay and then clearing it, I figured it was to prevent re-entrancy into the routine, but they don't actually check it anywhere.... it's turned on, slight delay, then turned off.

Thanks to inkochnito's tech chart from the flight2k owner's club, I see it's wired into j2-2, which has no connection. So, looks like stern put knocker code STOCK in the game! You just have to wire up a small control circuit (like a gottlieb pop bumper driver board) into that connection and a knocker and it will knock stock!

I wrote a test rom routine in the last couple days to track what some of the slightly arcane memory locations do.... I know how to check for multiball, too, so should be able to code in the no relock during multiball. Good thing I did the test rom because the ball walker makes a 'virtual' switch closure for each ball it 'thinks' is in there. Since there's only the one physical switch at the start, it has no way to double check that info, so it never clears it unless balls get locked in it and moved down (from multiball start).

I call this 'heading a future bug off at the pass', because I certainly would have fallen into the trap of not knowing why my ball was ending after one drain.

I don't even see how switches could be installed in the ball walker mech - that would really be a challenge.

I'm going to go throw 2 balls at once into the test rom to see how smart the walker code is.

#112 6 days ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

This was discussed some years ago and one thing I mentioned was the riptide shot. That’s about as worthless as the saucer in Blackout. Great effect, but not worth shooting for.
I remember making some ridiculous suggestions, which would have resulted in an incredible scoring imbalance. But adding some rules to riptide would make it more than just a drop target game.
Maybe score based on the number of drop targets currently down instead of each individual drop that has been collected during the ball. A la the spinner in Meteor. Multiply it by the number of stars lit. With one target left standing on each bank the riptide would be worth 8K. Collect all the stars and that jumps to 32K along with a lucrative spinner. Lite riptide for 2X and now it’s worth 64K....worth shooting repeatedly.

So really the change is adding in the stars? That would make it more lucrative, max before you get all 11 drops down at least once is 40k - so comparable to a full bonus collect on the drops at 39k. Then that final 11th target, to double it to 84k.

I don't think counting the downed drops would be the way to go..... probably the way to go is to NOT like the shot doubler unless you repeat the loop..... so 4 stars down, 11 targets, 1st loop is 44k, 2nd loop is 88k. Maybe even subsequent loops keep adding up to a certain amount, since repeatable loops on seawitch are just about impossible. Any target other than the spinner and the top rollover cancel the 2x.... and you could tie the 2 together so that weak shot to top won't give it, you have to see top rollover and then spinner to collect it/light it.

Go over and vote on the next disassembly poll for seawitch if you haven't already

#113 6 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

Thanks to inkochnito's tech chart from the flight2k owner's club, I see it's wired into j2-2, which has no connection. So, looks like stern put knocker code STOCK in the game! You just have to wire up a small control circuit (like a gottlieb pop bumper driver board) into that connection and a knocker and it will knock stock!

This is kinda amazing. Wonder if it was taken out for cost purposes. Since code's there, it means at some point someone said, 'Yeah, we'll wire the knocker up toJ2-2.

#114 6 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

Interesting realization in the code... I was wondering why they were setting lamp $3a when paying out a replay and then clearing it, I figured it was to prevent re-entrancy into the routine, but they don't actually check it anywhere.... it's turned on, slight delay, then turned off.
Thanks to inkochnito's tech chart from the flight2k owner's club, I see it's wired into j2-2, which has no connection. So, looks like stern put knocker code STOCK in the game! You just have to wire up a small control circuit (like a gottlieb pop bumper driver board) into that connection and a knocker and it will knock stock!
I wrote a test rom routine in the last couple days to track what some of the slightly arcane memory locations do.... I know how to check for multiball, too, so should be able to code in the no relock during multiball. Good thing I did the test rom because the ball walker makes a 'virtual' switch closure for each ball it 'thinks' is in there. Since there's only the one physical switch at the start, it has no way to double check that info, so it never clears it unless balls get locked in it and moved down (from multiball start).
I call this 'heading a future bug off at the pass', because I certainly would have fallen into the trap of not knowing why my ball was ending after one drain.
I don't even see how switches could be installed in the ball walker mech - that would really be a challenge.
I'm going to go throw 2 balls at once into the test rom to see how smart the walker code is.

Quoted from Coyote:

This is kinda amazing. Wonder if it was taken out for cost purposes. Since code's
there, it means at some point someone said, 'Yeah, we'll wire the knocker up toJ2-2.

I bet the added cost of a driver board for the knocker got nixed as you suggest. Management probably said, “Why are we going over budget just so players can hear a knock when they win a game. Take the knocker out and have it make a sound instead. You’ll see, someday we’ll make them all like this.”

Yeah this is really interesting. I’m curious to know if they did something similar for the deleted sling in Freefall.

#115 5 days ago

I have 2 F2Ks here, one wired for 115V and one for 220V. The 220V one has what I assumed was the knocker by the transformer, the other one nothing - not even screw holes. I haven't checked where the coil is wired to yet. Is this a homemade knocker mod or something else ?
20200117_141308 (resized).jpg

20200117_213439 (resized).jpg
#116 5 days ago
Quoted from Zigzagzag:

I have 2 F2Ks here, one wired for 115V and one for 220V. The 220V one has what I assumed was the knocker by the transformer, the other one nothing - not even screw holes. I haven't checked where the coil is wired to yet. Is this a homemade knocker mod or something else ?
[quoted image][quoted image]

Likely someone swapped a bottom board from another stern game into it. That's the way stock stern knockers were, with a metal plate attached to the cabinet side.

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