That business plan seemed to work well for AC/DC and Metallica, but maybe not so much for the games that have come out since then. How many Avengers, Star Trek and Mustang premiums are out there?

Sooo...what would it have? The woodbury drop target, extra magnet, and different cabinet art?

What you have here is a regular version of the game and a LE version of the game. The LE has extra features and it should given its an LE. The regular version is missing the features that the LE has, thus making it a basic version. Please stop complaining about the fact there is not a premium available, that concept has been scrapped and there is no point in stating this is a stripped down version from the premium. There is no premium to strip down, so there for this is not a stripped down version.

From an operator standpoint, I normally only buy LE models. I want the highest resale when I eventually drop it from my route. I rarely put out new sterns on route anymore, cause by the time you can see a game in person the LE models are sold out. The normal production stats of 1 earner to 3 turds on location prevents me from preordering every title... Solution for me and many operators in my area? Don't operate pins. I don't know the solution but the current model is killing location pins. In operators viewpoints, pros are for homebuyers. I get complaints constantly about the pro I own, and how I need to replace it with the version with all features.

if the pro doesn't come with spinners, ball locks, and color changing leds and the exact game play and rule set then i would call it a stripped down version. i personally will never spend 4000$+ for a nib pro missing something so basic as spinners. ripping shit out of a machine and charging so much is insulting to me as a consumer.

jjp has it right by having the same toys and rules in his products.

This is precisely why I said that all Stern had to do was mention at launch that there is a possibility of a premium if future demand warrants it. I can't imagine this would cannibalize their initial sales very much, and it would open them up to a lot of potential profit down the road if the game turns out to be a huge hit like AC/DC. By not announcing the possibility of a premium, they have essentially painted themselves into a corner. If they do decide to run a premium, it will piss off the people who bought the game early. If they don't make a premium, it will piss off the people who want the full featured game but can't find one for a reasonable price because of the limited supply.

JJP? Seriously? What is the msrp of Hobbit or WOZ 8k? Sounds like you should just buy a Stern LE and actually get your game in a timely manner, oh and the code progress that JJP promised is about the same as Stern.

Bingo. Met Prems stalled due to the magnet issues and incomplete code. They've picked up since the code update. Luci hasn't sold as well as people here think. Sure, a handful of Pinsiders have gone gaga for Luci...but big picture, how many do you think have really sold? If it's just the dudes around here...maybe 100 or 200? In any case, the regular AC/DC Premium was a big success, so no big deal...lump Luci in with that one, same game. It seems that AC/DC Premium was the only mega-hit Premium.

Yeah, giving customers a choice of products with different pricing is a horrible, horrible thing.

THIS SHALL NOT STAND!

Rarehero speaks the truth. He is wise. Premium games overall were a flop for stern, the reason AC/DC premiums sold was because the drastic difference from the pro with the mini playfield.

Exactly. Who's moving more units? Stern or JJP? Who has more products for customers to choose from? Stern or JJP? Who has more full time in house employees? Stern or JJP? I admire JJP for starting a new pinball company, but Stern does NOT need to emulate their business model. Stern is the ONLY company making a full fledge arcade pinball machine for less than $5k (real price)

Atleast Stern doesn't raise the price on the same damn game. How is it that Stern raises a price on a completely different game and they get hung for it and JJP raises his price a few times on the very same title he promised to produce and ship over and over again and people are praising his business model?

I think Met would have had AC/DC-ish success had it not been for the magnet issues & length of time it took for the code update. BTW - did the Dirty Donnie custom toy Premiums ever get made or did that project quietly disappear? Did anyone buy one?

I agree that the premiums made for pinheads probably did not sell enough. I also agree in making enough LEs to fill that void but enough for demand 500-600 seem close. But put the damn spinners and lighting in the pro.
Dont mess with key components. With those two main features they could sell pros for 3 years. And with Les having mirrored backglass and rails and powder coating and rampo diverters etc. , they too will be sold out.
I think Stern is trying to find the sweet spot and close, but they have to make the pro a great buy and the LE a collectible purchase.

I Applaud this response.

Agreed

Who wants an $8500 Hobbit LE when you know they started at $7500. Not me!

That may very well be the most sane thing I've ever heard anyone say on Pinside.

Gamexchange has a for sale thread for the DD editions that he just bumped the other day.

My feeling is they would sell thousands of Premiums worldwide,they have to ad a bunch of code for the LEs with the colour changing LEDs and such,why do that for only 600 games.

All I know is $7,700 is A LOT of money to pay for a product that you've never touched or tested.

That's what it really boils down to for me. Good for Stern if they can get it though. Don't blame them a bit. Just means I probably skip this title for now because I'm sure I'd want the LE features, but not dropping that kind if cash without seeing more and being able to play it first.

You can come over and play mine.

I am personally hoping for a premium. I am not in a position right now to buy an LE and I wouldn't want to without playing the game first anyway. If I like it when I play it, I would rather not be stuck with a Pro as my only option. I'll bet some of the people here who are against premiums being made as it will hurt the LE market, are totally in favor of B/W remakes. More pinball = good for the hobby, remember? Stern is not stating that premiums will not be made. I believe that if they think there's $ to be made there, they could announce them at any time.

The spinners are a fairly big deal and it sucks the pro doesn't have it, but I don't see them ever putting the same RGB lighting on the pro as the LE.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but as someone who has said many times in the past that I would prefer to play before buying (and I still do), I have also come to the conclusion that playing before buying is overrated.

Why?

Based on my experience. If I had played XM for a couple of hours before buying it, I probably would have gone ahead and bought it. It's certainly fun for those first two hours! In fact, when I got my XMLE, I really liked it a lot the first 5 or so days of ownership. It wasn't until that point that the flaws, as I perceived them, became more obvious to me.

I also had this experience again very recently. I've played i500 several times, but never more than 30 minutes at a time. I wanted one! Been on my wish list for a long time. Got it home, and after a few days of playing it, I realized this pin isn't doing it for me at all. Made a decision to sell it already.

Chances are very high that if I played TWD for an hour or so, I'd like it enough to buy it. That doesn't tell me whether I'm going to still like it a week or month later.

So unless you can spend some serious time on the pin before buying, you are still going to have limited information on which to make a decision.

It really comes down to this for me. But I wait about a year until a game's finished and I've gotten to spend the serious time on it before I buy. But again, that's just me. I hope you guys jumping in get a kickass pin that skyrockets in value.

Rob. Get off pinside and check your phone. Up for some pinball for lunch?

I don't. That just gives Stern more excuses to raise the price up on the next hyped up game. Spouting "increased costs" and such. They have hired a LOT of new employees in the last 5 years. They are making money hand over fist.

I wouldn't but I'm not in buying mod right now. I got a Met Pro and didn't have any interest in in Met or ST Prem though.

I wait about a year as well. I played at least 100 games of both AC/DC and Metallica before I purchased them. That seems about right to me. I also had a year of reading threads here so i knew of any potential issues in addition to my own playtesting.

The point where Stern was doing poorly was also a slight downturn in the general economy called the great recession. They have done great in getting through it with investment and their LE model has been a boon to them in the expansion of home buyers, and this in turn led to expansion of on location games. You can claim it is the LE that brought them out of financial crisis, I can claim it was more due to economic recovery, but regardless of the reason, customers are asking for more full featured games whether it be in LE or Premium form. Why not do it?

They have been doing it. Premiums haven't sold well…so I guess the "customers asking" are like 5 dudes on Pinside lol.

Look man, as a customer, I'm with you - I'm a prime Premium buyer. I want to wait if Walking Dead is a game I like before buying…but the LEs might be gone by the time I make up my mind. Oh well. But again, I'm one guy (of the five lol) …if it doesn't make financial sense for them to make Premiums, so be it….what can I do.

Despite what I want.. I get this.

so my choice is buy the full version game now with incomplete code, never able to play the game first, before they sell (le) out or buy a version that is watered down with missing stuff (pro) ?

shitty choices because i won't be played for a sucker and buy an incomplete game that i have never been able to play beforehand. enjoy your choices sucker

no i won't play this game stern, i'm taking my ball and going home.

Not really - couldn't care less about the mini playfield.

If the pro had had decent artwork, maybe metal ramps it would have sold really well.

Pro is totally stripped down if toys & game play are removed. If you took out the air conditioning, power windows & all but an AM/FM radio from a car, you call it stripped down.

I honestly don't understand this Pro / LE split when it comes to anything other than cosmetic mods.

It feels like what is going on is that Stern is like... "Lets cut out the Premium all together but we'll make them pay Premium prices! They'll still buy it because they really want this game! Then we maximize profit with the minimal amount of spending".

I don't understand why they don't make ONE game, all the same toys, rules, etc. They can have the Pro price stay at this new MSRP. Honestly... Is this not more in the Premium range anyways?

And for the LE: mirrored back glass, new cabinet art, powder coated rails & legs, shaker motor, Color DMD, enhanced toy paint jobs, autographs, numbered plaque, color changing LEDs... etc.

Or are people only buying LEs because they have all the toys? Would you not want an LE if all the extras are only basically cosmetic?

Unfortunately this was my experience.

Played XMLE at PHOF and thought it was a blast. Got it home and after a few weeks, realized not a game for me. Played STLE, had an amazing game, so immersive. Bought one bit after a few weeks realized I just didn't like the code. Lost a bundle on those 2.

I now really study rule sets to see if they have what I look for - not linear, not super deep, but fun, fast, and they make you hit the start button again ie. IM, ACDC, MET, TRON.

Pro sold fine, and the people who bought Pros don't care about metal vs. plastic ramps. I'm convinced not many people do. Whether YOU like the lower PF or not, AC/DC Premium had SOOOOO much more than the Pro. Lower playfield, Color changing GI, color changing arrow inserts, dancing band, molded train, crossover ramp, bigger subwoofer, ACDC drop targets, TNT drops w/ stationary behind it, moving TNT plunger, swinging Bell & kickout saucer…. That's definitely a case of many people DEFINITELY wanting the extra features because the gameplay experience is so vastly different. Most Pros since then have been pretty solid in retaining the essential gameplay elements of the Prem/LE versions. I still like having the extra stuff, but I can see why many are satisfied with the Pros for Met & ST for example. TWD Pro seems super solid, too.

If that's how you look at it, nobody is going to tell you that you are wrong in deciding not to buy. That's your choice. I understand your reasoning.

Of course that doesn't necessarily mean that what Stern is offering you isn't what's best for their business. And whether those who buy the pin now are "suckers" isn't something that you can say until we know if it's a winner or a dud.

Games like BIBLE, LOTR LE, Black SM, etc. have proven that people will absolutely pay more for games where the only differences are cosmetic.

i am sure it will be a winner, it's beautiful and has the same dynamic duo that made met what it is. maybe sucker is too harsh a word but i am frustrated that stern creates a premium customer, like myself, then pulls the carpet out and leaves me no viable option but to pass since my premium will not be made most likely.

i won't make an uneducated decision when dropping 7-10k on a product.

Please don't attempt to blame the recession for Stern doing poorly. They were doing poorly for years, and our economy is not strong currently either.

Why do you guys act like buying a pinball machine is like purchasing a house or getting married. ITs a pinball machine, if you don't like it sell it. Chances are you will either make a few hundred or lose a few hundred.

It you cannot respect that buying a pinball machine is a big purchase for many of us, then you are either too rich to understand or completely out of touch.

image-261.jpg

What is the risk? You purchase a machine, you sell a machine. Its almost always a wash unless you hold on to it for years or operate it and beat the crap out of it. If you purchase a game and don't like it and sell it a month or two later, your really not out any money?

You must have missed the meeting, it has been decided that you are to expect a 15-25% depreciation loss when selling a formally nib game. I know, I know. Crazy; but it has been decided. I missed the meeting too

You're both fired.

I think the Premium comes down to sales. If the LEs sell well and there is demand for more, they'll make a run. This isn't a company that leaves money on the table when it comes to demand.

Wishful thinking. I believe this is the same argument as the idea of a Tron Premium. If they don't make any sort of announcement or caveat that they might make premiums before shipping game #1 then we will never see a TWD premium. I really hope they announce a premium version but don't see it happening. They already have the first pros coming down the line.