"old style" gtb flipper rebuild question(s)

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#1 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

machine is a "royal guard"... doing a flipper rebuild... at some point in its lifetime, someone had put one of the "newer" lever arm assemblies on it, so i ordered the complete kit from steve to put everything back the way it should be...

1) on one of the new arms, the bakelite flipper link fit VERY tightly over the stud (on the other arm, the link rotates easily)... this was causing it to bind and not return... breaking my own rule about "assuming", i simply enlarged the hole in the bakelite, and this made the binding go away. question: i'm assuming i did the correct thing here. was my assumption correct?

2) on both of the new arms, there is no room to put the bakelite washer on the stud... is there a "smaller" one, or should i be using something else? see picture below, the left flipper (not rebuilt yet) has the bakelite washer and the right one (the one that is "done") does not...

tia...

chris

image.jpg

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1

#2 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
i simply enlarged the hole in the bakelite, and this made the binding go away. question: i'm assuming i did the correct thing here. was my assumption correct?

Thats what I would do as its a better option than removing metal from the male counterpart.
Probably done that way on purpose in case there is a tolerance issue.

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
should i be using something else?

I would use a thin S/S washer IMO as some flipper assy. I have use them.

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#3 11 years ago

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CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

@pin-it...

cool... thanks mate... i would imagine i have a washer or two kicking around that fits that description...

yea, i figured drilling out the bakelite hole would be easier than machining the arm*... good point on the tolerance issue...

* of course, getting to that point took awhile... it never occurred to me to "test out" the link on the other arm to see if it rotated freely, i figured (darnit, should have asked) that it was supposed to fit snug, after all, i have read many times that getting the play out of flipper assemblies is the main reason for rebuilding them... so i tried many things (a few of them many times) to get the flipper to return before finally realizing what the problem really was...

live and learn...

side note: this is the first time i've ever seen the inside of a machine that has the swing arms that actuate the flipper switch... took me awhile to figure out what was going on there... that was a rather, ummm, "interesting", piece of engineering they did with those...

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#4 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

Remember there is no dumb questions ,just dumb mistakes.

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
live and learn...

Either learn on your own or learn from someone elses screw ups <(I would take the latter)

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:yea, i figured drilling out the bakelite hole would be easier than machining the arm*.

Always modify the female part ^especially ^if its still available.

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#5 11 years ago

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CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

^^^

and you would think that after a lifetime full of dumb mistakes, i'd have learned to ask the dumb questions by now...

corollary to the above... even after "learning" from someone else's mistakes, i still end up teaching myself something the hard way altogether too often...

point well taken on the modify female part...

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#6 11 years ago

INC

johninc

Pinside member

Las Vegas, NV

11y 51,650 934 5

I have never been successful at modifying females.

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#7 11 years ago

RLP

rplante

Pinside member

Forest Lake, MN

13y 46,650 497 5

Quoted from johninc:
I have never been successful at modifying females.

I have.

The secret is you have to raise them from a pup.

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#8 11 years ago

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CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

both flippers rebuilt, and they are much better...

probably a goodly portion of the improvement comes from the return springs not being WAY overtight... the old ones were really cranked on there... likely to try and overcome the magnetized coil stops...

my very first flipper rebuild... i think i will celebrate this evening with wine, women and song...

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#9 11 years ago

HRG

poppapin

Pinside member

12y 135K 11,323 6 7 1

Good job Chris
Royal Guard was my first machine and I did the same thing with the flipper links. How's your backglass? flaking in the reds? There's a repro but mines not too bad.

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#10 11 years ago

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CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

^^^

thanks...

not too bad, actually... the bottom 2/3rds of it is basically perfect... in the top 3rd, there's a bit of flaking in the reds, and the word "guard" and surrounding area is torched... image.jpg

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#11 11 years ago

HDC

HELLODEADCITY

Inactive member

15y 72,650 5,822 8

I remember seeing/hearing about owners of EM's who replaced the fiber link with aluminum flat stock, and from what I gather it changes the game 'feel' dramatically?
Anyone ever try this?

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3

#12 11 years ago

CJM

EM-PINMAN

Pinside member

11y 111K 5,311

I had some binding from a PBR rebuild kit on my 1971 Gottlieb 4 Square on the left flipper. Interesting thing is it worked fine initially then the problem started a week a later driving nuts as I kept adjusting different things to no avail.

I solved it by inserting 2 small washers (1 on each side) on the coil bracket to straighten out the throw/angle of the plunger and fixed the problem, so now you know another trick with tricky flippers.

Amazing how just being an 1/8" off can cause so many problems especially on an EM.

Ken

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#13 11 years ago

CJM

EM-PINMAN

Pinside member

11y 111K 5,311

Quoted from HELLODEADCITY:
I remember seeing/hearing about owners of EM's who replaced the fiber link with aluminum flat stock, and from what I gather it changes the game 'feel' dramatically?
Anyone ever try this?

Not I.

I just have stuck with the Bakelites.

Ken

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#14 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

^^^

just thinking about it, i would imagine it would, as there's likely some flex in the bakelite that wouldn't exist with aluminum...

wouldn't take that to the window at the track though...

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2

#15 11 years ago

MLF

stashyboy

Pinside member

High Falls, NY

11y 91,050 2,643 14 44

Not sure if it's the same thing Ken, but I just did something similar on my Flipper Pool. I believe the new style reinforced flipper post bushings from PBR, are a bit taller due to the thicker flange. Because of that, the plungers and links aren't quite in the same plane as before. I took a couple old bakelite switch spacers and added them under the coil mounting brackets to raise up and angle it slightly. Worked great. The whole assembly is now lined up perfectly.

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#16 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

hey poppa, could you do me a favor and post a picture of your flipper switches? or anyone else with a machine of this vintage?

looking at the switches, i'm a bit confused as to what they are "supposed to" look like, as it appears as if there are 2 different ones...

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1

#17 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
probably a goodly portion of the improvement comes from the return springs not being WAY overtight... the old ones were really cranked on there...

Yes it does ^^
Indexing the Gottlieb flipper return springs is a must if you want a stronger /snappier flipper.(highly recommended)

Depending on how you do it ,either trial and error setting the spring using the factory provided 3 bushing holes or (not for the faint of heart) drill a hole in the bushing/playfield and using a new screw for setting a spot for the return spring location. Do not drill too far!

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
side note: this is the first time i've ever seen the inside of a machine that has the swing arms that actuate the flipper switch... took me awhile to figure out what was going on there... that was a rather, ummm, "interesting", piece of engineering they did with those...

For extra safety against shock (justs slips over)>>

GTB_Flipper_link.JPG

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#18 11 years ago

HRG

poppapin

Pinside member

12y 135K 11,323 6 7 1

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
hey poppa, could you do me a favor and post a picture of your flipper switches? or anyone else with a machine of this vintage?
looking at the switches, i'm a bit confused as to what they are "supposed to" look like, as it appears as if there are 2 different ones...

Are you looking for pics of end of stroke switches or flipper button switches? I think thats a flipper button sw. that Pin-it is showing(seen better days).

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#19 11 years ago

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CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

yup, it is, and yes, that one is rather grungy... one of mine is fairly mangled, but still seems to work... i think i should probably replace them...

the actual switch that the actuating arm contacts... i'm good on the eos switch...

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#20 11 years ago

GTB

DirtFlipper

Inactive member

Twin Cities, MN

12y 43,900 6,190 38

PBR sends the replacement linkages with holes predrilled to fit the roll pin diameter (so it's a small hole). That way they can be used on the newer (70's) style flipper pawl.

For the older style of flipper pawl that has the stud and retaining clip, the hole needs to be drilled out larger to fit over it. Usually the drill bit matches the same size as the stud, so a bit of filing is needed afterwards to give the hole just a nudge of play.

The flipper wire forms that translate the flipper button motion to the flipper switches are both the same between left and right; the flipper switches are mounted differently on the playfield underside to accommodate the left/right difference.

I've been adding a small length of shrink tubing to the final 'bend' on those wire forms (where they contact the flipper switches) to preclude any failure of the fishpaper and prevent a potential shock hazard. They are very unobstrusive and work well there.

Good luck with your game!

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#21 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

messing around with these a bit more, and need a couple of pics and/or descriptions from someone, and some commentary on "flipper button force" (for lack of a better term)...

1) pics/description first. i replaced the flipper switches (one of the existing ones was an interesting "hack", to say the least). while there, i pulled out the actuating arms, straightened them and gave them a bath in the cleaner. can someone take a pic (or measure/describe) of how far the actuating arm should swing before it actuates the flipper? i couldn't really tell from looking at it before i took it apart, both sides were different and the switches/arms had been mangled multiple times by someone trying to line it up right.

2) flipper button force. the left flipper button is much "firmer" than the right one. this seems to be due to the return springs on the actuating arm. the one on the right is rather flaccid compared to the one on the left. the question here is "which is correct?". damned if i can remember from playing this 40 some years ago. ideally, i'd just replace the springs with newies, but they aren't available.

side note/question... has anyone ever just ditched the mechanical assembly, and moved the flipper switch to be directly actuated by the button? i know it would no longer be "original", but it sure seems like it would "work better" (and be easy to do)... after playing around for hours with the original design, i am sorely tempted to make this modification...

second side note: even after rebuild, i'm getting a pretty nasty buzz from the right flipper at end of stroke... eos switch is installed/gapped correctly... ideas?

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1

#22 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
flipper button force. the left flipper button is much "firmer" than the right one. this seems to be due to the return springs on the actuating arm.

Unwind it to give you the firmness you want.
Just unhook the spring and unwind it till you get the setting you want.

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#23 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

Quoted from Pin-it:
Unwind it to give you the firmness you want.
Just unhook the spring and unwind it till you get the setting you want.

thanks pin-it... yea, that's what i was planning on doing (or winding the right one tighter). just trying to figure out what is "correct", or should i just try to get them to feel approximately the same?

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1

#24 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
1) pics/description first. i replaced the flipper switches (one of the existing ones was an interesting "hack", to say the least). while there, i pulled out the actuating arms, straightened them and gave them a bath in the cleaner. can someone take a pic (or measure/describe) of how far the actuating arm should swing before it actuates the flipper? i couldn't really tell from looking at it before i took it apart, both sides were different and the switches/arms had been mangled multiple times by someone trying to line it up right.

This should help.

Yes a coat hanger is strong enough or welding wire too.( I used a ch.)the diameter is the same to show how to fabricate a new one.
I like to use an adjustable wrench to help w/ bending.
Take note ,there is not much preload/travel with that spring.

I prefer metric.

GTB_Fl.jpg GTB_fl_(2).jpg GTB_fl_(3).jpg GTB_fl_(4).jpg

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#25 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
second side note: even after rebuild, i'm getting a pretty nasty buzz from the right flipper at end of stroke... eos switch is installed/gapped correctly... ideas?

They used to put this in coils to cut down on buzzing -> Coil / Solenoid Tension Washer: 89¢ ea

For all makes and models.
Part# 269-5002-00
Used on many games to provide tension on front or back of coil to keep the coil firmly in place when mounted. Commonly used on older Bally solid-state games, and later-model Data East, Sega, and Stern pinball games. Will fit/work on any make/model that uses standard size coils. Measures 7/8" outer diameter, 1/2" inner diameter.
Steve @ PBR might suggest something or carry those parts also .^^

From -> http://www.actionpinball.com/flippers.htm

In lieu of that^^^ you may want to put small washers under the flipper coil brackets * and the playfield where it mounts <- creating a different alignment for the coil and plunger <- trial and error on which ones. Plus no altering or damage occurs using this method.

I have eliminated some buzzing using that method ^^just have to see what angle change will give you less noise.

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#26 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

In case the spring is giving you a problem. They make them still.
The type of spring for the flipper linkage is called a torsion type.
Avail. from these suppliers :

https://www.centuryspring.com/Products/torsion.php

http://www.leespring.com/int_learn_torsion.asp

Sizing and rotation? best ask them.^^
Good luck.

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#27 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

cool... i walk in after a good afternoon on the golf course, and the answers i need are here...

thanks pin-it... gonna take a look at it in a little bit...

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#28 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

Quoted from Pin-it:
They used to put this in coils to cut down on buzzing -> Coil / Solenoid Tension Washer: 89¢ ea
For all makes and models.
Part# 269-5002-00
Used on many games to provide tension on front or back of coil to keep the coil firmly in place when mounted. Commonly used on older Bally solid-state games, and later-model Data East, Sega, and Stern pinball games. Will fit/work on any make/model that uses standard size coils. Measures 7/8" outer diameter, 1/2" inner diameter.
Steve @ PBR might suggest something or carry those parts also .^^
From -> http://www.actionpinball.com/flippers.htm
In lieu of that^^^ you may want to put small washers under the flipper coil brackets * and the playfield where it mounts <- creating a different alignment for the coil and plunger <- trial and error on which ones. Plus no altering or damage occurs using this method.
I have eliminated some buzzing using that method ^^just have to see what angle change will give you less noise.

i have some of those washers, i'll give it a shot... also will try the "change the alignment" method...

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#29 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

ok, after futzing about a bit with the coil brackets, the buzz is MUCH less... thanks for that tip...

bent the actuator arms so they contact the flipper switch pretty much as soon as button is pressed...

getting there... still "think" they should be a bit more powerful...

another question... any suggestions on flipper alignment? i have them aligned like the pic on ipdb, but it just doesn't seem to "play right" that way... the ball really wants to come off at a much more oblique angle than it seems like it should, it's almost impossible to hit it "straight" with any power...

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#30 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
i have them aligned like the pic on ipdb, but it just doesn't seem to "play right" that way...

Try the add-a-ball version of Royal Guard --> Palace Guard from IPDB for a better photo shot?
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1737

Thats the problem with flippers there doesnt seem to be a set standard on some machines,pretty much a personal preference. Those brackets can alter the flipper angle with ease, helping you find the best angle w/o having to loosen the flipper shaft.

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
ok, after futzing about a bit with the coil brackets, the buzz is MUCH less... thanks for that tip...

Seems like we will never eliminate all buzzing,but I doubt that when the pinballs are built that they are perfectly aligned in flipper coil/plunger. <- I look at it like a shooter rod which is adjustable L-R and up/down. But sandwiching the washers between the brackets and playfield gives the same kinda effect IMO,I would not put washers on the brackets that hold the coil though.

For lubing pivots I would use Superlube Dri-film -> http://www.super-lube.com/drifilm-aerosol-ezp-69.html ( bakelite pivots, inside flipper bushings) Lowers resistance. After spraying and evaporating you cant even tell you put it on ,till you notice it pivots w/much less effort.

The flipper bushing return spring should just return the flippers to rest with as little resistance as possible but not too loose,otherwise the trace magnetic pull will keep them in limbo. <- easy/cheap way to improve flipper action,finding the sweet spot for the return spring anchor point is a little bit of a pita but well worth it.

Capture_Royal_Guard_flippers.JPG

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#31 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

thanks again pin-it... i'll play around with your suggestions after work today...

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#32 11 years ago

JB

IntoPinball

Inactive member

Denville, NJ

11y 43,400 918 11

Pin-It (my older and wiser, but less handsome brother) lubed the pivot points on my Capt. Card flippers last time he was down. Works like a champ.

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1

#33 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

^^^

i will not comment on the better looking part (or the older ), but he is certainly wise...

i have just finished implementing his suggestions, and my flippers now FLIP...

thanks pin-it...

now to chase out 1 last electrical gremlin, and the "shopped" machine i bought will actually BE shopped...

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#34 11 years ago

JB

IntoPinball

Inactive member

Denville, NJ

11y 43,400 918 11

Yep... He's got me beat in the wise mechanical department.

Funny, I still find it amusing that I actually played the 4 Square that you now own.

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#35 11 years ago

OP

CCC

ccotenj

Inactive member

11y 77,150 7,231

^^^

he's a good man, that pin-it guy...

i tell ya, pinball machines have no morals, they really get around... i think that 4 square has been fondled by half the pinside members from new jersey...

it's always available for play if you are ever in my neck of the woods... i don't anticipate it will be going anywhere for a long time, i like it as much as i did back when i played it on location...

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#36 11 years ago

JB

IntoPinball

Inactive member

Denville, NJ

11y 43,400 918 11

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
it's always available for play if you are ever in my neck of the woods... i don't anticipate it will be going anywhere for a long time, i like it as much as i did back when i played it on location...

I am gonna take you up on that someday...

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#37 11 years ago

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Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

Dont laugh, these torsion springs might work.
Was looking at them yesterday.

OP
Quoted from ccotenj:
flipper button force. the left flipper button is much "firmer" than the right one. this seems to be due to the return springs on the actuating arm. the one on the right is rather flaccid compared to the one on the left. the question here is "which is correct?". damned if i can remember from playing this 40 some years ago. ideally, i'd just replace the springs with newies, but they aren't available.

http://www.dollartree.com/catalog/search.cmd?form_state=searchForm&keyword=mouse+trap
Zoom in on photo^^
Two per trap.
4 per pack =8 springs. Bulk is for internet purchase , store is sold @ each ,single pack.
Even if they dont work for linkage returns, they can be used in the coin box to prevent theft.