Old Chicago issues no schematics.

Have to do a quick repair on an Old Chicago "Was running before we let it sit for 20+ yrs" I got it running many wires broken off coils relays etc. Fuses etc

Here is what I have now Game starts and plays great only it never ends. The ball count does not advance or subtract.

You get to play unlimited balls LOL.

Player 1 is the only option the other three never initialize.

There are a few unconnected wires that I haven't a clue where they should go if anywhere.

I attached pics and hope you can correctly see their locations on in the cabinet.

I guess its just the ball count unit that is not working and or the player advance but without schematics I don't know which they are to test.

Any help would be great Thanks all

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#2 9 years ago

BIF

CactusJack

Pinside member

It is very common for a Bally of that era to have lots of unconnected wires. This is because the loom was wired complete with many different coin options for other countries. As you see in one photo, you have a whole group of wires next to where an additional relay would be mounted.

The Buzzer is the "over the top" buzzer. Activated, through a relay using a #455 flasher lamp as a delay timer.

Player up unit is located in the back head. I believe the Ball count unit is located on the bottom relay board.

You should manually check each stepper unit for proper advance and reset. Pay special attention to the small levers that ride on the ratchet teeth. It is very common now for games that have sat for years, for the grease to seize up. Most would recommend totally rebuilding the steppers. My approach is to only get them working again which usually means working some light oil in to the pivot points (usually something good like Tri-Flow) and then taking some scotch brite metal policing pads to the rivet heads followed with a light coat of Super Lube. In extreme cases, some oil may also be needed in the main shaft bearing.

#3 9 years ago

Eddie

The stepper units are moving fine and I just cleaned them anyway to be sure they are freely advancing.

When I depress the ball count relay by hand nothing seems to happen?

Is the player unit in the back box the small odd unit hanging top center?

#4 9 years ago

BIF

CactusJack

Pinside member

If ball index never pulls in, the ball will be reserved without advancing ball or player. From memory, the stepper in the middle might be the match unit (00 90 unit).

#5 9 years ago

BIF

CactusJack

Pinside member

So, if you look at this photo on IPDB, http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1704&picno=54699
The unit on the right is the player unit. The unit in the middle is the credit wheel. The smaller stepper up by the knocker is the Match unit.

#6 9 years ago

Eddie

Thanks I figured it out while in the shop.

The player unit does not advance.

When activated by hand the player reels 1-4 work fine.

However the ball index never registers I tried activating the relay but nothing happens.

It does pull in but nothing changes I can't seem to find a broken wire or loose connection in that relays stack.

SO whichever relay or other that powers the player unit is not doing its job

Same for the ball counter sequence.

I will have to wait until next weekend to go back and work on it ugh I hate not tiring things up.

#7 9 years ago

BIF

CactusJack

Pinside member

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/438/Bally_Capt_Fantastic_1062_Schematic.pdf

IPDB has a scan of Capt. Fantastic which should match pretty closely (other than maybe wire colors) for the Ball count and player control circuit (D/16 - D19 on the wiz schem.)

The ball index relay should get pulled in and stay in when some score is made on the playfield. Once the ball is at the shooter lane, pushing it in by hand should make it hold (I know you said it won't). You might want to try holding it in and then pushing on the Outhole switch or relay. The extra ball relay also has a normally closed switch on it that would prevent the ball/player from advancing. And there are two score motor switches involved too.

Ball index (F/G-25 on the Wizard Schem) is held in by a normally open switch on itself and a normally closed switch on the score motor as well as a make brake switch on the outhole relay. The same path is used for hold of the tilt relay so you might want to see if the TILT relay will hold in if energized.

So you might want to print those sections of the schematic and be armed with it when you go back.

#8 9 years ago

Eddie

Thanks I will scan the pages and go over them. I will get back to it on Sat. Its probably something very simple connected to both issues.

#9 9 years ago

Eddie

Went over everything again rechecked switches. Cleaned solenoids and stepper Units again.

Still nothing the ball unit and player units will not advance however if I advance them by hand the will reset when activating the reset relay.

The advance coils seem fine not shorted, no broken wires and good ohms they just never seem to get power and without schematics I can't tell where the power lead goes

Do they get continuous power as in Solid state machines where I can ground them to test that they are getting power or are they continuously grounded and get power through relays and the score motor?

This is frustrating as everything seems as if it should be working

#10 9 years ago

GON

Stu

Inactive member

11y 1,250 2,264

PBR has the Schematics.....it's like 5 feet long...I had to buy one for my Old Chicago......

#11 9 years ago

►♠◄

Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

To reiterate CactusJack
Here is a sequence order from a 1975 Bally Kick-off to describe in detail.
Just have to find the broken link in the chain. Always fun.....

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Bally kick-off 2.JPG

#12 9 years ago

Eddie

I am making progress!! The ball index relay solenoid was weak, will need a new one, but in the meantime I adjusted the switches for that really with some tension to help the relay pull in and now its working.

I now have ball count and end of game.

However I still don't have player advance in a multiplayer game the player advance is still not advancing.

One issue down the next should be knocked out soon maybe its the same issue a weak relay.

#13 9 years ago

BIF

CactusJack

Pinside member

Ball in play or player up will not advance unless the ball index relay is held on (which you indicate it is not).

As to a weak relay, it is unlikely the coil is bad (unless it shows obvious sings of burning). It is more than likely too much tension due to the switch blades on the relay stacks. Or the wrong spring.

#14 9 years ago

BIF

CactusJack

Pinside member

Or, the relay armature is set up in such a way that it is too far away from the slug of the coil.

#15 9 years ago

Eddie

The ball index relay is now working I adjusted it and its fine.

However I just realized that the game starts on ball two. I don't have the back glass so I didn't pay attention and just found that out.

What can cause that?

It appears that the score motor rotates one more time before the game begins in doing so advances the ball count to two but I could be wrong and the score motor should rotate twice upon game start.

#16 9 years ago

BIF

CactusJack

Pinside member

Well, if the ball index is pulling in after starting a game - and before you put a ball in play and scored points - then it WOULD go to ball 2.

Ball index is triggered by scoring points on the playfield to prevent a ball that did not make it up the ball trough hill from steeling a ball from the player (like what is happening to you). No points = Air Ball and air balls are returned to the player over and over again until points are scored.

If the ball index relay is NOT energized when this is happening, or, you didn't screw up one or more of the switches on it, then your ball count unit may not be returning to the zero position, OR, the bakelite rivet / PCB may not be aligned when sitting in zero position (Ball 1).

You guys really need to have a schematic in hand before attempting to work on an EM. In this case, you could locate the ball in play lights, find the wire color for Ball 1, and then insure that the wiper finger is sitting on the rivet or PCB pad that is connected to the Ball 1 lamp wire.

#17 9 years ago

Eddie

Thx guys for all of your help everything works perfectly now ball count and player advance and game over sequence.

I knew that the ball count unit was resetting perfectly as I took it apart cleaned adjusted it and tested it manually many many times.

All of the issues were caused by the pesky Ball Index relay

After Cactus Jack said that if the ball index pulled in and scored points it would advance to ball two.

I ran down stairs to see if it scored on startup and it did NOT.

I checked the ball index relay and it was engaged and energized?

It turns out that the switch arms were just putting enough tension on the armature to allow it to engage.

For some reason the switch adjustment gap and armature tension must be within a hairs distance to work properly. How the switches will remain the correct gap is the question?

The switch gap is so close on two switches that you really can't even see it but outside of that adjustment Im back to square one with the original issues

Maybe in the future I will order all new switches in that relay for the customer. I guess this switch stack is simply worn out.

This is my 2nd EM repair without a manual or schematics Yes it makes it hard but it is possible to repair an em this way. Was it my choice? No, It was what I was dealt.

Once again thank you all that posted with your knowledge and help.

3 weeks later

#18 9 years ago

KHD

KevinD

Pinside+ Frequent

Hamilton, OH

9y 50,300 111 20 1

Just to let you know, the wire coming from the buzzer in the first pic connects to the white w/ orange wire that is in the second pic. When you get 100,000 points, the buzzer comes on for about 10-12 seconds which is probably why it got disconnected.

#19 9 years ago

Eddie