Sadly you and many others just don't get it.

YOU are expressing the outrage. We don't care. Buy or not. You have a right to choose.

You also have a right to express your opinion and I respect that. Who is buying a Flintstones pin? Seriously

I definitely want to play this machine...but this thread is not for me anymore. Good luck to AP and all that order this game. It looks like a winner.

Call me out on what? The artwork in general is not my tastes much less the silly monkey. I dont know anyone that thinks that flinstone's translite is anything other then a tacky mess.

You are generalizing your nonsense on people that you dont even know. Much less know their opinions or values. I love how you take the monkey and just transfer it into people that like cartoon blowjobs. Spend more time getting to know people and less judging them and they might surprise you in a good way.

Whoa now, out of the 16 pins i play Flintstones the most.

I've been in this hobby for 25 years and I've gotten to know plenty of them. Just look at the upvote list on previous posts from people talking about "social justice warriors" and how they should just "get over it".

It would be nice if some of those people spent some time thinking how other people might feel instead of getting all bent out of shape about how pinball is being "ruined" because some other people - not just women! Some of us are old white dudes too! - are tired of tacky bullshit for six-year-old senses of humour. It's okay to be sexy but maybe try not to be gross. Is that so much to ask?

The good Ol'dayz.

image-1 (resized).jpg

lot lizards. great theme for a pin

(yes google it pansies)

Maybe it is too much to ask if the company and its management want to go that direction. It's probably not for either of us but you said yourself from 25 years in the hobby that it's right up a lot of pinball people's alley. It's pretty simple for me, I'm just not going to buy it. Lots of things in the world that are not for me, I've got better things to do then to be offended buy them though.

Monkey or not, the art style on this beer box would rock Oktoberfest... IMO

Sleeper leapers.

LTG : )

Spot on!

Pin_Pal_Apu_Sad_Icon (resized).png

RIP

Amen.

I don’t necessarily care for the art. I think overall it’s ok, but nothing I find super appealing. I also respect people’s opinions that don’t like it, and the people that love it. The issue isn’t having an opinion, the issue is the ridiculous outrage.

Outrage is the Facebook comments, accusing a monkey of sexual assault (WTF?), rolling consent and rape into the convo, and blaming it on “white privilege”. You don’t like the art? Fine, express your opinion however you’d like. Just don’t be surprised when you use progressive buzzwords to justify your opinion that you will get push back.

A simple, “I don’t like the art and won’t buy because if it, I hope they change it” is reasonable.

“How tone deaf in the time of metoo that shows a monkey committing a crime of assault. Here again, white old male privilege rearing it’s disgusting head reminding women they aren’t welcome and basically condoning sexual assault. They better change the art or I will make sure everyone I know understands how vile and misogynistic AP is”, is unreasonable.

(Obviously a lot of comments rolled into one, but you get the point)

Words have consequences and if more people were selective about how they express themselves, it would be a great service to everyone. You may be pleasantly surprised with how many people agree with you. However, when the most extreme examples are used right off the bat, you’ve instantly pushed some people away with your outrage.

...or lastly, do whatever you want. It’s a free country. You want to scream until your red in the face about drug dealing, alcoholic, castrated serial rapist monkey? Have at it, just don’t be surprised when your mocked relentlessly.

That's the problem with these type of things though, you are either with them or against them and then they will try to demonize you to get their point across. They don't believe that everything is not black and white and that 'freedom of choice' is a huge thing. This can be seen by the quick jumps to comparisons of priests and children and the 'think of the children' syndrome. It's not a step backwards as someone stated. A step backwards is stifling others because you don't agree with it.

Completely agree. My 80 year old neighbor said it best. “There is a few loud voices screaming it’s black and white, when the reality is most people see it in shades of gray”.

Great theme, fun art, and no non-consensual grabbing. Get the difference? Honestly, the pansies on this thread are you babies that can't handle the fact that American changed to art and can't tell the difference from art that's sexy and art that depicts non-consensual grabbing.

I swear all this whining is coming from guys that haven't slept with anyone new in the past decade and just don't know how to behave around women today. If you don't understand basic consent and can't have conversations about it without acting like a whining child, then how the hell do you get laid?

No, you don't get to get lie about my post. I said if the art showed a priest grabbing an alterboy, you'd probably be grossed out by it. My point was women are grossed out by this art, here's something similar that would gross you out, maybe this will help you understand how it is for women. Or not, maybe you don't understand an example or a comparison in an argument to help you learn to have feelings and empathize.

No one is telling you what you can't do or can't say. People are telling you how they want to be treated. Women don't want to be treated like objects, they don't want to be grabbed without consent. It happens at pinball tournaments and at shows and they feel this reinforces that's OK. Women tell you this, fellow men tell you this... and your and other's reactions is to lie and call them names, to get angry, to kick and scream that their opinions aren't valid. You look childish, angry, unable to deal with adult conversations. The art has been changed, you need to deal with it. Grow up, grow as a person, stop being so mean to your fellow humans, and stop making yourself look so childish. Be an adult and deal with it.

riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I did not lie about what you said, you made the comparison, therefore equated it to it. You can't pick and choose as you see fit. I understand SOME women and SOME men are offended by this, that has never been the issue and I've made that very clear, as well as I do not condone any such things and this certainly should not be happening at events or anywhere. We both have opinions, the difference between us is that I'm mature enough to let people make their own choice rather than try to condemn them and make them out to be 'unempathetic <insert noun here>' as has been stated and insinuated by a few multiple times. I have said people are insane to be offended by it and I stand by it, because only insane people look at this and are traumatized.

So I guess in closing, maybe you should look in the mirror and take your own advice, because mature people could have this conversation without that nonsense and look at it a bit more obtusely.

Page 11.

The guys at American Pinball are geniuses. You can’t buy this kind of attention.

Come on dude, it's great you are trying to reel in your crazy, but you were just calling everyone pansies, lying, exaggerating, and being a straight out jerk and still calling people insane that disagree with you. You are acting like a child that isn't getting things their way. The art was bad, the art has been changed, the company apologized, and it got changed not because it was sexy, but because it depicted non-consensual grabbing. Stop saying people are offended by it, the art is dumb and sends a bad message. The only people that are offended are you people that can't handle the change. It's funny when the people that are always calling people pansies and snowflakes act like exactly like the names they throw out. Grow up.

Also, great marketing by American, we are talking way more about their game than they ever could have imagined!!! And their apology gained them a lot of fans in the women's pinball community.

What annoys me the most is the conflation of sexual assault with the depiction of the monkey which isn't even totally clear as to what it's doing. But it's not sexual assault, and it has ZERO to do with consent. Those are human issues. And it's a cartoon. No harm was done to any person, living or dead.

What annoys me the second most is the solicitation of opinions, those opinions being calmly and politely given (I was accused of shouting, and nope, didn't shout), and then being blocked. I thought if not actual friends, Bowen and I were at least very well acquainted but I obviously overestimated what that counted for. I did not, as Bowen stated, say four times I was leaving, particularly if my views were to be snarkily questioned and words put in my mouth subsequent to what I would have hoped was my last post on the issue, which means if others posted responses, I would respond back if necessary. So many disingenuous arguments put forth and a total dismissal of issues I brought up like with Baywatch and the bouncing boobies animation.

What I didn't bring up is that it's interesting that one works at a company that doesn't have a problem with implied violence in pinball, but a monkey, all bets are off. It's just the level of outrage that's breathtaking. Get some perspective.

What one can do in future about art of questionable taste is to privately get a dozen friends together and ask the company to reconsider their choices. If the company doesn't change it's mind with that, then go public. But going with the public outrage fest first is tiresome to those of us who are able to not immediately get super emotional and projecting things onto other things that just aren't there. And not getting upset at this doesn't turn one into someone who condones any sort of sexual impropriety and anyone who says otherwise is an ass hole.

I cringed a little at the monkey for what it 'could' mean, and I'm fine with it being changed, but in the end, it means next to nothing. Nope, it's not a grey area, it's not misogynistic, it's not much of anything but some very dumb art.

I think you must be confusing me with someone else. While I'm strongly opinionated regarding the overall subject, I don't care one way or the other about the monkey (as I've stated). People ARE(were) offended by it, so why not state that? Are you trying to pull a Trump here? It's funny when people over react to things that aren't a big deal, and throw out names, yes it is true....so while I'm not directing that at you, it is a huge part of this because it was coming from the other side of the fence. People calling peoples characters into question because they didn't find it offensive and this happened many times over the course of the thread. I'm afraid you are confused. I was initially surprised by the spite in this thread regarding the subject and yea, I called out SJW, but that's exactly what it was. Those are the extremes, rather than someone clear headed thinking about both sides of it.

Man... Nothing like a thread on Pinside about controversial art to remind me how much of this scene is a dumpster fire of awful people. Not that pinball is alone there, but wow.

Just going to take a moment to appreciate my local scene, and AP doing the right thing.

Consider that while it means nothing to you and doesn't seem like a grey area or misogynist to you, that may because you grew up as a man. It may have a completely different reaction to the women in our community. Personally I think it's the very first pinball art I've seen totally cross the line, it just took things way too far. And for perspective I've been playing pinball since the 70s and collecting for 25 years. For those that don't get it, I'd say, stop talking for a minute and listen to your community. Grow. And listen and talk to the women in your lives. You will be a better person for it.

Oh trust me, this place is mild compared to some. People here have for the most part have kept civil.

Yeah... Can always go to some hot rod or gun forums if I felt like getting the full experience.

Watch it, a dumpster fire might take offence being compared to this Landfill Conflagration.

Maybe that's the difference, I respect that older white males have that stance, because many that I know are bigots, racists and misogynistic. However, the women I've talked to about it (which range from 20's-40's) have no issue with it, and yes, some of those ladies have had bad experiences in their past. What I ask is you and others quit making it sound like 'all the women have an issue with it' because they don't and that because people state that they don't see a problem with it, they are emotionless pigs, because they are not.

That's fine. Take a poll of every female pinball player and ask them how angry it makes them on a scale from one to ten because a handful of reactions plus Bowen doesn't quite reach the level of really knowing how serious a federal case everyone thinks it is.

Plus I said it's of questionable/bad taste and am fine it's being changed. But here we go again, that's not enough for you, is it?

This is Bowen's quote:

"And I'll direct you to the statements of people who have been groped or assaulted at pinball events, who are directly emotionally impacted by this artwork. That is important to me. I don't give a shit about PC, I give a shit about them."

I'm disgusted this happened, but it has NOTHING to do with this. Directly emotionally impacted, by a cartoon monkey? I'm sorry but how do some people deal with everyday life?

I'll ask you why you are OK with Baywatch? Maybe you aren't. Should that game not be allowed in tournaments now? Should we burn those games or paint over the cabinets?

What about depictions of violence? Spooky seems to have some of that. Forget the violence, WHY WAS THERE NO OUTRAGE AT THE WITCH IN THE BACKGLASS (of Rob Zombie)? I guess it's OK because a cartoon monkey wasn't grabbing at her nearly bare ass. Is that the company Bowen works for now? Oops.

Give me a break about 'growing'. I'm completely aware of what's going on and this is pushing back on the most extreme elements of it. Because where does it end? What do we do for people who've been in a car accident and their kids have died while they lived. Do we not allow depictions of car accidents or kids dying in film and TV?

I'm just saying that it's about putting thing in proper perspectives.

https://pinballsupernova.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/dsc01606.jpg?w=650

I just want to know where all of our cut of the money is for keeping this thread alive. A few of us should have earned a free game by now.

I showed Monkey Image to my Wife and Daughter, 3 Women from 22-30, Multi Racial, A 35 year old Mom of 3, The wife of a Colonel who is a Minister, and a 32 year old with 2 young Girls. All, other than my daughter, neighbors.
I showed them the image in Context, on a Pinball Machine about Oktoberfest.
Only one was offended, and all but 2 were offended of the image out of context.

All agreed its a Cartoon Monkey on a Game, and could feel fine to say "poor taste".

In the context of Tournaments and Human interaction, who could possibly disagree?
and I empathize with their view. In this perspective its wrong.

So is the discussion that mixes the two.

The key words are Some, not All, and different views/life experiences/ages.
We All have an opinion....We will never have the same opinion.....Why believe differently?

I was saving my Rant.....all done.

Whew... enough monkey talk, at least for me. Since a few people asked about it, let's talk MagNab (which does NOT refer to any inappropriate touching of, or by, magpies).

There are four magnets in Oktoberfest. One each is located on either side mid-playfield, near the OKTOBER and FEST target banks. Players can't control these magnets; they're there to add some fun chaos to the game. (And sometimes they can help you -- I've watched the OKTOBER magnet happily play ping-pong with those targets, rapidly accumulating several target hits on the player's behalf. You get extra points for this!)

Then there are two other magnets: one located above the TAP lanes at the top-right of the playfield, and one located above the upper-right flipper in the right orbit. These ARE player controllable, using the extra right-side button... that's what we call MagNab. You earn MagNabs by shooting the lit "MagNab" shot, which alternates between the right ramp and the captive ball. (Pro tip: one of the steins awards an extra MagNab when you shoot the lit MagNab shot... and like all steins, you can stack their powers.) Hitting the MagNab button energizes both the right orbit and TAP lane magnets for a couple seconds. Both magnet choices are useful: the right orbit one gives you a nice feed to the UR flipper, which has several important shots including the upper ramp (beer barrel lock) and the bartender (advance toward or collect a stein)... the TAP lanes advance PLAYFIELD X. (Pro tip: one of the steins gives an extra advance to Playfield X when you complete the TAP lanes... and did I mention, like all steins, you can stack their powers.) Obviously, this gives some interesting choices about where and when to use your MagNabs.

There are also occasional automatic MagNabs... an inlane -> opposing orbit combo will usually catch the ball at the TAP lanes, and every X pop bumpers does an auto nab at the UR flipper when the ball exits the pops to the right orbit.

We can't wait for everyone to play and learn Oktoberfest!

Good point about the selective outrage. Kind of hypocritical to take such a strong anti-Oktoberfest stance when the company you work for has a pin that awards hand jobs and has nude, bouncing titty animations.

in reality 98% of the public/pinsided dont actually care about the monkey. Your only seeing the over sensitive vocal 2% in this thread. If any one ran a poll i think you would see most people dont care

Projecting much? Again, I and seemingly many others don’t give a shit about the art being changed. It’s the over the top reaction that is being called out. The fact you can’t even grasp that simple concept and instead go on a diatribe about getting laid says more about you than anything else.

In the end, tomorrow is a new day, and you will move on to your next valiant fit of outrage protecting some seemingly marginalized group against some perceived slight. Best of luck on your never ending quest...

Change the art - have the monkey in the same position but have his hands holding white flags.

Thanks for the explanation . More magnets the better!

Even though i never got my Alien , i got quite involved with learning the rules while compiling a rulesheet.

Can't wait for the attention to be diverted to the positives of this game , which are the 90's style layout,toys and gameplay that brought me into this weird hobby.

Joe has always been willing to contribute positively to a thread and explain what he can about rules. I believe he will earn Lyman-level status in the community based on his Alien work and this game.

Red wave

Haha “(processing:query://=orange man bad)”

Love the profile pic

So quick question. Is there some hypocrisy going on here?

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It seems some women I meet are hoping anybody would be willing to grab their a$$, even if its just some monkey.

My mother still thinks it's funny how a goat started chewing on her skirt at the petting zoo when I was a child. lol. At least she still has a sense of humor.

Would a bunch of monkeys playing musical instruments be politically correct and family friendly enough for pinside?
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I'm waiting until someone comes out saying they were molested by clowns. Then pinball will be in a world of hurt.

Look no further than one of the recent pinball clowns.

https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/8070842/kiss-gene-simmons-accused-sexual-battery-lawsuit

That's kind of funny because I was going to bring up what are all these stand up people going to do with their rock/metal pinball machines when their favorite bands go through the current #metoo phase. Then their tolerance and integrity will be tested.

It still amazes me that so many here see absolutely no difference between a monkey reaching under a skirt and scantily clad women.

Lots of hypocrisy for sure.

I'm sure you could go thru just about any of these holier than thou people's games and find plenty of that for sure.

It still amazes me that so many people make this assumption after all this back and forth. There's a point being made. Many people are missing it.

To me it's just like the goat that was chewing on mom's skirt.

Do you think that was a sexual gesture like the animal knew and intending it to be that?