(Topic ID: 201109)

OK Shuffle Alley Experts Answer This!

By Kickout

6 years ago


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  • 30 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Mopar
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 6 years ago

    Been working on a Wiilams/United Cherokee Shuffle Alley and need some assistance. The Rear Roll Over switches are not working. I've checked for loose or broken connections none seen. From the schematic I jumped the grey wire on the Game Over Relay to the Red-Yelow on the Rear Roll Over RE. and the relay energizes. So why are none of the nine (9) Rear Roll Over Switches able to energize the Rear Roll Over Relay. Snipe added showing Rear Roll Over RE. Circuit.
    How do I check each individual switch of the nine Rear Roll Over switches? Is this where my problem is?

    IMG_1292 (resized).JPGIMG_1292 (resized).JPG

    #2 6 years ago

    Kickout, For a proper power test for the rear ro relay you need to use a similar power point. You tested with the black wire which is not correct. This will verify that the coil is good, but not the circuit. You need to jumper from the grey wire, so jumper from the grey at the end of the Repeat Strike Relay to your Rear ro relay. I expect you will find it will not activate, and then you can trace the grey wire to find the power issue. It's possible that circuit also goes through a jones plug, where a fault is possible.

    #3 6 years ago

    LarryB

    Thanks I will try that in the morning.

    #4 6 years ago

    I don't know what else is or isn't working, and I'm sure that you already
    have, but you might also want to recheck the contacts in the Game Over
    Relay and the make/breaks in the Start Relay..

    #5 6 years ago

    Molar

    I've checked these several times. Jumped from the grey wire on the Game Over Relay to the Red Yellow on the Rear Roll Over RE bypassing the 9 Rear Roll Over switches, And the coil fired. Per the manual the 1st Ball and 2nd Ball "A" relays should trip, but they don't. So I am thinking two issue are there. 1. The Rear Roll Over switches are not activating the Rear Roll Over Relay, 2, the relay is not activating the 1st and 2nd relays. Does this make any sense?

    Kickout

    #6 6 years ago

    Kickout, Just so you understand, you'll notice the line coming off the bottom of the Game over relay does a curve when it goes over the grey wire? That curve means it DOES NOT connect with the grey wire. That's why you need to test by connecting to the bottom of the Repeat Strike relay, which shows a straight line connecting it to the grey wire. Try that for firing coil, then when it doesn't work, trace what gives power to the grey wire.

    #7 6 years ago

    LarryB
    I understand what the loop means. When you said jump from the grey wire on the Repeat Strike Relay are you talking about the grey wire pointed out in the photo of the Repeat Strike RE?

    Thanks
    Kickout

    image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

    #8 6 years ago
    Quoted from Kickout:

    Jumped from the grey wire on the Game Over Relay to the Red Yellow on the Rear Roll Over RE bypassing the 9 Rear Roll Over switches, And the coil fired.

    Oh really, so the grey wire is alive. So the lead going to the rollovers, or the
    lead exiting is not connected. With a volt meter or jumping, check which side
    hasn't or hasn't juice. Might have to add a wire. I had to do that with other similar
    problems..

    #9 6 years ago

    Also, both sides (switches) with the grey wire in the game over relay
    jumps the rollover relay, right? I know you check these switches,
    but just asking..

    #10 6 years ago

    Kickout, I don't see any arrow pointing out, but doesn't matter. On the repeat strike relay, it's the double wire on the coil. Jump that to the R-Y wire on the rear roll over coil. If it does fire then there is likely a circuit connection to the group of ro switches, but I suspect it will not fire. If it doesn't, not being able to see the schematic, you may need to start a game to energize that circuit

    #11 6 years ago

    Also, how could you connect to a grey wire on the game over relay when the schematic shows a black wire?

    #12 6 years ago
    Quoted from LarryB:

    how could you connect to a grey wire on the game over relay when the schematic shows a black wire?

    I think he jump a set of contacts that's on the G.O. Relay with the
    grey wire attached. He said it's alive so has to be one of the leads
    going to or leaving the rollover switches. Should be fairly easy to trace..

    #13 6 years ago

    Molar, LarryB,

    I will take your advise and do as you suggest. I will not be near the game until Saturday. I will post the results them.
    Thanks

    #14 6 years ago

    Yeah, if the grey wire on the Game Over Relay's switch energizes the Rollover Relay,
    the only thing in between are the last roll of rollovers and the wire going to the rollover
    switches and the wire leaving them going to the Rollover Relay. Knowing that you must
    have inspected the rollover switches themselves, there has to be a break in one of those
    two wires, or a hidden weak solder joint at one end of one of those lead wires.
    I would jump from the grey Game Over switch to the rollover switches, and then from the
    rollover switches to the Red-Yellow on the Rollover Relay. You'll find it..

    #15 6 years ago

    Mopar, thanks for getting me on track. Kickout, I was confused about your test because you didn't specify you were tapping at the n/c contact of the relay. Wire colors are frequently faded and being VERY specific in describing these problems is helpful. That being said, Mopar is basically on point, I will add a couple of thoughts. Since you say you tested all 9 switches and they will be wired in parallel, it cannot be a wire connection break between any of the switches. I would suggest placing a clip lead end on the grey wire n/c of the game over contact, then the other end to the grey wire that connects into the first ro switch, then press the switches again to see if works. If no, then move lead ends, one to coil of rear ro relay, and the other to the r-y where it is soldered on the 9 switch group. If either one fails, then physically trace the wire from one end to the other to find the break. It's possible they could both fail. I suspect any solution will lead to the jones plug. If it does, make sure the wire color on the male and female pins match. It's not the first time some home mechanic would have moved wires to create a problem. If you are handy with a voltmeter, set on AC over 30v setting, and clip one lead on the grey at the nc contact, then use the other probe to test at various points. This can be quicker than jumpers for troubleshooting.

    #16 6 years ago
    Quoted from LarryB:

    I suspect any solution will lead to the jones plug.

    That's right, this is a shuffle. Maybe place the puck on a rear rollover(s) and wiggle the
    plugins'. Might just be yet a dirty (poor connection) pluggin', and super easy fix. If not,
    jumping (volt meter) will surely detect the problem..

    #17 6 years ago

    Molar,LarryB

    Saturday update. Started over again checking circuits. Off schematic above.

    1. Jumped Blu-Y-W on G.O. Re. To all nine R.R.O switches on lead side R.R.O.Re fired each lead.
    2. Jumped Blu-Y-W on G.O. Re to all nine return leads pressed each Rear Roll Over switch R.R.O Re fired on each.
    3. Jumped Grey on G.O.Re to R-Y on R.R.O.Re NOTHING.
    4. Jump double black wire on R.R.O. Re to R-Y on R.R.O.Re it fires Relay
    If I am looking at these jumps correctly it makes me think the is somewhere in the Grey wire connections in the G.O.Re. Would that be a correct assumption?

    #18 6 years ago
    Quoted from Ohio66:

    1. Jumped Blu-Y-W on G.O. Re. To all nine R.R.O switches on lead side R.R.O.Re fired each lead.
    2. Jumped Blu-Y-W on G.O. Re to all nine return leads pressed each Rear Roll Over switch R.R.O Re fired on each.
    3. Jumped Grey on G.O.Re to R-Y on R.R.O.Re NOTHING.

    Okay, are you saying when jumped on the Blu-Y-W wire switch on the G.O. Relay, it fires.
    But when jumped from the switch with the grey wire on the G.O. relay which is in contact
    with the Blu-Y-W- switch, nothing? If so, it has to be the Blu-Y-W- switch is not making contact
    with the grey switch. Maybe you're saying something else, but double check that set of switches..

    #19 6 years ago

    Molar
    I may not have beeen clear in my last post.

    1. When I put a Jumper end on the Blu-Y-W on G.O. Re and touch any of the nine R.R.O switches with the other end of the
    Jumper wire on lead side the R.R.O.Re energizes.
    2. When I put a Jumper end on the Blu-Y-W on G.O. Re and touch any of the nine return leads with the other end of the
    Jumper wire and pressed each Rear Roll Over switch the R.R.O Re energizes.
    3. When I put a Jumper wire on the Grey on G.O.Re to R-Y on R.R.O.Re NOTHING.
    4. When I put a Jumper wire on the double black wire on R.R.O. Re to R-Y on R.R.O.Re it fires.

    In the attached photo if i put a jumper from before the resistor on the Rear Roll Over Relay to the Other side of the resistor the relay energizes. Then closing any of the Rear Roll Over switches causes 1st Ball Relay to energizes, put nothing after that happens.

    IMG_1295 (resized).JPGIMG_1295 (resized).JPG

    #20 6 years ago

    Okay, looking at the schematics, there's a set of contacts in the G.O. Relay.
    One contact has a Blu-Y-W wire. The other contact (its mate), has a Grey wire.
    Is it the contact with the Blu-Y-W wire that you're jumping from to get the rear
    rollerover switches to activate the R.R. Relay?

    #21 6 years ago

    Ohio, I'm about done here. You are all over the place! Don't jumper the resistor. In your last post point #3 You did a jump and the relay did not fire, when if you look at your First post, you jumped the exact same thing and the RELAY DID FIRE? It these both in fact are true, then you are doing comparisons when the game is in different states of operation, which you should not do without telling us! Your #2 jumper seems to solve the problem as you describe, doesn't it?

    #22 6 years ago

    LarryB

    Sorry to hear you are frustrated, but I am trying to get this problem worked out. I appreciate any help you provided. The only way I know how to learn and repair these machines is trial and error, questions and more questions. I will continue working on this, again appreciate your help.

    #23 6 years ago

    If you truly wish to learn, young Luke, follow this lesson through to the end.

    So an important part of LOGICAL troubleshooting is a principle called Paths of influence. I'll give you an example that might seem simplistic, but bear with me. Example, visualize a ladder diagram(schematic)like a pinball game has. One one side is a hot wire, and the opposite side a common, or ground. Lets say there are 3 circuits in our game, the first circuit has a wire from the ground line to a normally closed light switch, a wire from the other side of the switch to a 2nd N/C switch, then a wire from the other side of the switch to a 3rd N/C switch, and then a wire to a light bulb, and a final wire from the bulb to the hot line. Since all 3 switches are closed, as soon as power is applied the light will turn on. This circuit is labelled #1. There are 2 more identical circuits labelled #2, and #3. So when we apply power to our circuit and it's working correctly, all 3 bulbs will turn on. Now one day when we turn on the power, #2 lamp (the center circuit) does not light, but #1 and #3 bulbs are on.

    SO the paths of influence principle says to first identify everything in the path of the failing #2 circuit . In this case the path of influence would include the wire connection at the hot line, the wire from there to the #1 switch, the switch itself, the wire to #2 switch, the #2 switch, the wire to #3 switch,the #3 switch, the wire from #3 switch to the bulb socket, the bulb socket, the bulb, the wire from the bulb socket to the common wire, and the connection of that wire to the common. The path of influence would NOT INCLUDE, any wiring, switches, bulbs, or sockets in the #1 or #3 circuits, because only the #2 bulb is not lit. These circuits have NOTHING to do with the #2 circuit, so should not even be considered. It would ALSO NOT include needing to check that power or common is present, since #1 and #3 circuits work, proving that power and common are there. You need to laser focus on the failing path/part and not be distracted by other (non influencing)parts of the circuit or weird symptoms. If you have a non energizing relay, or bulb in this case, that you KNOW should be working, STAY ON YOUR PATH AND FIND WHY IT'S NOT WORKING!

    Now that we've determined everything in our path of influence in the #2 circuit, we can begin testing. The most efficient method is to split a circuit in half and begin checking for power in the approximate middle. This will quickly define for you which direction you need to move the testing in order to find the fault.

    Actually as test equipment you can use jumpers, or a voltmeter, but actually the best testing device is a circuit tester. You can build this by taking a rubber covered alligator clip, solder an insulated wire on it about 6 ft long. Attach the other end of the wire to one connection of a bulb socket. Get a voltmeter type test probe(plastic shaft with the metal point on the end) and somehow attach the bulb socket to the non testing end of the plastic shaft/handle and insulate well. On the other connection of the bulb socket, add an insulated wire and run the other end of that wire through the plastic handle to solder it to the metal point (testing end) of the test probe. IN the bulb socket put in a bulb that closely matches the bulb of the circuit you are testing, and you now have the perfect test device for testing game circuits. At Pinball Expo, I once watched the great Gottlieb pinball designer, Wayne Neyens hook one of these test probes in a broken mid 70's Gottlieb pin that had the owners scratching their heads, and solved the problem in less than 30 seconds.

    If you can truly take this method of troubleshooting to heart, and do not deviate, there is no such thing as trial and error, just trial and solution!

    SO in your circuit, you actually did make some progress toward path of influence and logical (split the circuit in half) troubleshooting, but then you started deviating. What is our failure? The Rear Roll Over relay is not firing. But is that actually the problem? SHould it actually be firing when one of the rollover switches are closed? The only way to determine that is to measure and be sure we have a complete circuit to power the relay. If we do not have a complete path, and everything appears correct, then possibly you are not actually troubleshooting a problem.

    In this particular case, we can fairly easily verify whether this relay should actually be operating now or not. How do we verify? For a relay (or light bulb) to fire we need a hot wire at one end, a common at the other, and a complete circuit in the middle. I'm going to assume in this case that you have the game powered up and coined with the game reset and operating. Since I don't know which color wire is hot and common(doesn't really matter for example) I'll just assume Yellow is common and Black and Gray are hot. In this case you've already smartly tested that the coil is good by jumping the black(hot) to the non yellow side of the coil. That proves out that yellow is actively common, black is actively hot, and the coil is good and the wire from the coil to the Yellow is good. You have NOT YET PROVEN that the coil SHOULD be operating though. Since the GREY WIRE carries the hot to this coil(AND NOT THE BLACK), you need to verify that in fact the grey wire is also HOT RIGHT NOW. If it is not HOT, this could either be a problem OR this circuit is not supposed to be operating right now. If the grey wire IS HOT(use voltmeter from grey to yellow to test), then we know that we have an active circuit, and can continue troubleshooting. IF the grey wire is NOT hot, you are not looking on the correct path of influence and should go elsewhere. I will assume the grey wire is currently hot and continue as if this is the correct path. Since this is a circuit with very few things in line, you already have logically gone to the middle of the circuit in your troubleshooting. So with grey wire hot, the only other items in our path of influence are the relay coil connection point of the R-Y wire, the wire itself, its connection at the first RO switch, the wires connecting the switches together, any individual switch, the connection of the wire where it leaves the switches going to the grey line, that wire, its connection to the grey line, and possibly any jones plugs that may be in that path.

    One error was made in following the path was made by you when you jumpered from the game over relay(grey) contact to the R-Y wire. That relay has nothing to do with this circuit other than the fact that it has a grey wire going to it. THAT IS NOT THE SAME GREY WIRE GOING TO ONE SIDE OF THE RO SWITCHES. So the correct testing must stay in our path. That jumper should have been applied from the point on the RO switches where the grey wire is attached over to the other side of the switches where the R-Y wire is attached. If the relay does fire at this point, then we have isolated the problem to the bank of switches or the interconnecting wires. If it does not fire, and we've tested the main grey wire is hot, we have still NOT tested that the grey wire is hot all the way to where it connects to the bank of switches, and have not tested the R-Y wire continuity from the switch bank back to the coil. Somewhere in the correct path of influence lies the answer, my friend. Learn these lessons well, and someday you will be an EM Jedi. Best of luck!

    #24 6 years ago

    LarryB

    You have made a very good point, one of which I will reread and follow through with. This type of explanation and logic is what I was missing. It is nice to have Pinsiders that are willing to help. Again I will follow your path.

    #25 6 years ago

    LarryB

    Used the information you provided in #23 and found a wire in the Rear Roll Over switches that was partly bent from possibly moving the machine that was not making full contact. Now the pins activate when the puck slides over them, the Rear Roll Over Relay activates. My next issue is the strikes and spares are not registering. I will you your method and proceed to try and locate this issue.

    Kickout

    #26 6 years ago

    Can you get in a position where you can take a pic of the
    the contacts and wiring in the Game Over Relay? The switch
    with the grey wire is the live feed to the rear rollovers.

    #27 6 years ago

    Molar
    i traced that grey wire are found a bent lead that was not making good contact. The Rear Roll Over switches now work and the pins retract. I am now checking for a Strike/Spare issue. I he game will not register a strike or spare when they happen.

    #28 6 years ago

    When all pins are made it gives no strike (or spare), just scores 10 points?

    #29 6 years ago

    Molar
    That is correct.

    #30 6 years ago

    Okay, you'll want to carefully check the contacts in all
    10 pin relays in the Relay Bank. There's a series of contacts
    running from #1 Relay through #10 Relay that are made when
    all pin relays are in the energized position. This is what
    completes the circuit and energizes the 1-10 Relay..
    I assume when a strike/spare is made, the 1-10 Relay
    (which is also in the Relay Bank) is not energizing.
    Check to make sure that this is correct, and if so,
    you'll want to check all the pin relay contacts..

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