(Topic ID: 171443)

Ok, New Pins too expensive, but what about this perspective?


By MK6PIN

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 25 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by MK6PIN
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 2 years ago

    I don't think anyone here would argue that the price on some pretty cool NIB titles are just priced crazy high. But I ask this ( honest answers...ha, I know this forum....whatever):

    Do you have an "x" factor of profit for you to let go of your favorite machine, and how does that compare to current NIB ( desireable) prices? This is where I struggle.

    I've spent literally countless hours ( and$$$) getting my pins the way I want them. There is a fiscal, time, and emotional element to my favorites, that would be hard to quantify with money. Some I just wouldn't want to let go, period.

    So what's your $# on the favorite in your collection, and how does it compare? For me, simply buying a replacement model would not necessarily fill the void ( i.e. - My TAF got me into the hobby, it's not a HEP, but I have 100's of hours, etc. invested, and a great story to tell on how I got it. Would I take 10k for it? Maybe. But currently, the pins personal value to me would be close to that, and still a hard sell for me ( not that anyone would pay it).

    Point is....if one of these new pins would be a grail for you, is it really overpriced? ( sort of rambling, but curious how others feel)

    #2 2 years ago

    Example, I guess ( checking out tonight but will visit tomorrow):

    If someone offered you $3k more than what you paid for your FAVORITE pin, would you take it?

    #3 2 years ago

    $300,000 and you got a deal!

    27
    #4 2 years ago

    I'm in it to lose money

    But I'm not in it to spend $9000-$15000

    Did I answer the question?

    #5 2 years ago
    Quoted from MK6PIN:

    Point is....if one of these new pins would be a grail for you, is it really overpriced? ( sort of rambling, but curious how others feel)

    I'd say "no", people buy their grail pins using emotion, not logic.

    Having said that, I unfortunately don't see how Dialed In could be anyone's grail pin.

    Batman 66, er maybe a select few older folks who grew up with it. Fortunately for Stern, same folks tend to have a lot of spending $. Makes sense for Stern, their production schedule is backed up out the door for months, so they can't sell thousands of the next game if they wanted to, so make a niche product that you can sell for 3x a regular Pro to a lot fewer people, but at least you can build the games in a reasonable timeframe. I'd wager those $15k games will jump to the front of the production queue too when they are ready to be built, and a bunch of poor commoners waiting months for a GB Pro or whatever will just have to wait a little longer. Ah, capitalism baby!

    Alien is the only one that feels like it could be a grail pin for a large number of buyers, and thankfully, it's "reasonably" priced. I hope they sell 10k machines and set themselves up to be a successful mass-producer of many great games for years to come.

    I recently sold my TAF that I had for 16 years to fund a new Metallica Pro. Not sure if Metallica is a grail pin or me but it's the first modern era game I was willing to sell TAF for. Mentally there is no way I would open my wallet for a NIB game at these prices, but "trading" an old favorite for a new one made sense.

    12
    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    I'm in it to lose money

    I'm just in it for the women. I feel like a rock star with all these lit up wooden boxes in my house.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from MK6PIN:

    If someone offered you $3k more than what you paid for your FAVORITE pin, would you take it?

    Interesting question. I put together my collection based on games I like, and I get them into the condition I like. At this point there are few games I want more than the ones I have, so I'm not sure that a little more money is much of a draw. Any offer would have to take into account market value, for example maybe $3k more than I paid is the replacement cost, which would give zero incentive to sell my favorite game. If an offer was $3k above market, that does make things interesting.

    #8 2 years ago

    I don't think any of my pins are even *worth* $3k

    22
    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    I don't think any of my pins are even *worth* $3k

    Do you like them ? Play them ? Do they make you happy ?

    If so, then they have value far greater than money.

    LTG : )

    #10 2 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Do you like them ? Play them ? Do they make you happy ?
    If so, then they have value far greater than money.
    LTG : )

    Now this is wisdom!

    #11 2 years ago

    There is no game from my present or past collection I would not sell and in many cases have already.

    Profit margin is non-existent, as I won't get into arguments anymore with people saying that "pinball machines are investments". I know what they are worth in market value.
    I always say make me an offer on a game, the worst I can politely say is no.
    I have even offered my entire collection, but "bargain bin" fire sales are not part of my descriptive language.

    If a person wants to make an irrational offer, I will take the money and buy another game, or go on vacation.

    I still have memories whether from restoration or gameplay. "Holy grails" have less and less significance the longer a person collects games. They become "one of the many", especially when you have owned 3-4 versions of the same title.

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I'm just in it for the women.

    Of course you are!!! You ole womanizer, you! I reckon you are more into "boob flipping" than the thrill of the silver ball!

    Mike in Kentucky

    #13 2 years ago

    A) an newly released game is never going to be a'grail' game for me. If it is for you, then I don't want to know you

    #14 2 years ago

    Ill play......got my grail T2 for a tad under 2k.....I'm in it to play pinball....(a few of us do play these things... ).......no I would not sell for 5k.....I don't have as much time in it as most of you....but I have some time in it....and evey shot shoots perfect....but my mama didn't raise no dummy....I would take 10k...(X-mas or not)...not sure a # I would settle on in between... .................Joey

    #15 2 years ago

    Most of these NIB pins will be produced for at least a year so I have no problem waiting. When GB was revealed, I thought I would have to jump on that but after letting the emotion subside I realized I can get it later when code's done and all production problems have been solved.

    I do think about buying a NIB game that's production is about to quit like TWD or WNBJM. TWD is constantly up for sale on the used market so there's no real problem getting one even if production does stop. Whoa Nellie, though, hardly ever comes up for sale. I'm seriously considering making that my first NIB. I'm saving money and I'll just see how I feel when it's all in my pocket.

    On the subject of my collection, I don't think anyone would want any of my games. I'm more of a hoarder and I'll just keep what I buy and save the money for the next purchase. If I had to have B66, I would save up for it. I don't hold any grudge toward anybody who does purchase one of these high dollar pins.

    #16 2 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    A) an newly released game is never going to be a'grail' game for me. If it is for you, then I don't want to know you

    So for some of these ol' timers that loved the old Batman their whole life....you don't want to know them just because their grail pin is a new release.....I'm not even sure what to say to that.....hmm............Joey

    #17 2 years ago

    I will never find another BSD that plays like mine. It was my grail game when I bought it about 5 years ago. Today, thousands of games later, sure, an offer could take my BSD away. It's just part of the hobby.

    Most every game could leave for a big offer. Just not Tron

    #18 2 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    Whoa Nellie, though, hardly ever comes up for sale.

    Ain't gonna be in the marketplace if no one bought it in the first place.

    #19 2 years ago

    not in the hobby for profit, its for enjoying playing them. you figure it out eventually with the $$$. like when you see people you sell a game to try to sell it for double what they paid for it a month later. only get games you want to enjoy, dont focus on the $$$. Lots of people in the hobby are just out to make money. its sad, and yes the prices on the new stuff is nuts. get titles you want to enjoy and not focus on the resale value bs, and enjoy the hell out of them

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from dannylite:

    Ain't gonna be in the marketplace if no one bought it in the first place.

    Very specific observation, but maybe not for reason mentioned.

    WNBJM was not an overwhelming landslide buy for home owners but sold moderately well for operators using today's sales market for new machines at lower volume. There are not going to be that many floating around in the secondary market overall in 10-15 years.

    I am still waiting for closeout overstock on this title, as there quite a few sitting with distributors right now gathering dust.
    I will buy as an "oddity of pinball" for my collection only for history, not gameplay.

    #21 2 years ago

    I craved for years for a NIB and told my distributor that I will wait until a unique, un licensed theme was made.
    When I heard WNMBJM was being made I broke every rule I made re the purchase of pinball machines.

    Let me just say that over a year later I do not regret paying AUD$9k+ for this absolutely amazing machine. I often have to force myself NOT to play it as it is totally addictive and I can spend hours on it. Waiting patiently for Wizz bangs next game!

    I am also very excited on Dialled In and would love, love, love this pin, may have to trade a few in when the price of this settles to a reasonable rate ATM AUD$14k+ I believe ( thats a tad beyond me now )

    #22 2 years ago
    Quoted from oldskool1969:

    I am also very excited on Dialled In and would love, love, love this pin, may have to trade a few in when the price of this settles to a reasonable rate ATM AUD$14k+ I believe ( thats a tad beyond me now )

    By the time the price drops, we will have to change your name to ancientskool1969
    :p

    #23 2 years ago

    You know what I really find funny about this "the price is to high" is that many (not all) that are complaining will buy anyway and most (not all) are on another thread here about "pins and watches" where they've paid upwards of 6-8 grand for a watch but, bulk at 9 grand for a pin, hmmmmm maybe if they could wear the pin on their wrist it would be easier to swallow.

    #24 2 years ago

    Some great replies...think Lloyd nailed it, however (for me):

    Quoted from LTG:

    Do you like them ? Play them ? Do they make you happy ?
    If so, then they have value far greater than money.
    LTG : )

    It seems our hobby has people that enjoy their games in similar fashion to me so placing a monetary value on them is tough.
    Others enjoy just buying and selling, others are sort of indifferent.

    For clarity - when I stated that we all agree new pins are too expensive, I'm currently buying 2 of them, but not complaining about price. My question was raised as I looked around my gameroom to decide which ones I should get rid of to accommodate (logical thinking)....realizing I couldn't part with any of them at this point (have a few watches too).

    I actually think EVERYTHING is too expensive, I miss cheap gas, affordable (and usable) insurance, and groceries that you didn't have to feel guilty about buying because of price. These things (and many more) we HAVE to just generally accept. Fortunately, pinball is an "opt in or out" hobby.

    My point - I really have no clue what BOM is on a pin, nor does that influence my choice on which titles I want (or want to keep). At least there is something tangible, that I get tremendous enjoyment out of, and actually might keep some of it's value when (if) I ever tire of the hobby. Way better than the stupid money I've spent on insurance, etc. over the years that was seldom used, and will see zero back.

    NIB = expensive( relative to the "good old days" pricing I hear so much about), but actually not too out of line with what I value my personal machines at. Just stuff to ponder, I suppose.

    #25 2 years ago
    Quoted from dannylite:

    Ain't gonna be in the marketplace if no one bought it in the first place.

    That's what I thought as well. I looked in the marketplace to see how many have been for sale in the past year. I was surprised to see 5 for sale in the past year. One is still on there right now.

    #26 2 years ago

    I agree with your whole post but I singled this out for emphasis

    Quoted from MK6PIN:

    ...
    My point - I really have no clue what BOM is on a pin, nor does that influence my choice on which titles I want (or want to keep). At least there is something tangible, that I get tremendous enjoyment out of, and actually might keep some of it's value when (if) I ever tire of the hobby....

    I think this is a really significant point ... it shouldn't matter what profit a business makes as long as buyer finds value for the money he spends. If we can't find value then we shouldn't spend our money.
    .
    .
    .
    and to follow up on that

    Quoted from MK6PIN:

    ...
    If someone offered you $3k more than what you paid for your FAVORITE pin, would you take it?

    Interesting this is not seen as greed when we sell in the secondary market, we see no issue with a $3k "profit" because, after all, we are simply selling at "market value" so we are guilt free. Then we turn around and try to figure out BOM on the newest Stern so we can complain about their profit as greedy, just the hypocrisy of human nature I guess.

    #27 2 years ago

    If you really play pinball then a grail pin should be more then just the theme. They way each designer put a table together makes a massive difference on the playing style, fast and flowy, vs stop and go, mode based vs overall progression, wide body, standard body. There is only one table in my collection that I would consider grail and it's not mine it my wife's Addams family. For her its a bit more simpler as this is a table she grew up with in a share house during her university years and to her it just represents pinball. However she is not going to get much more into the hobby then knowing she enjoys playing the occasional game and has a fondness for the Adams family. Any other table is up for grabs either to sell or buy in my books as almost every table out there is replaceable. If she chose to sell it that would be up to her but it wouldn't happen unless a real family emergency warranted it, even then all my other pins would go before as they have no sentimental value. Once you been been in the hobby a while you realize that all pins are just a commodity, and all can be replaced. The term grail pin might apply to a collector who has spent 10 years and 30k tracking down a kingkong for example because hey you ain't going to get another, but really almost any game is replaceable expect for a very select few that are truly rare. I don't buy into Stern trying to create rareness via le and super le. When you have the exact same gameplay available in unlimited quantity in premium, then the game really isn't that rare.

    That being said anyone selling a game should remember just what it will take to get a replacement should they choose to. Someone offering you silly money for your pin might seem like an easy win, until you have to go out and try and replace it and see that the market has moved beyound your expectations. This is really true of high end restored pins. It takes a bucket load of money to get tables back up to true collector quality and beyound. Even at the ridiculous price some sell for they are still below replacement.

    Personally I've stopped buying and selling pins as I'm happy with the collection I've got and find it much more enjoyable to play new games on location. Would be a very diffrent matter if I didn't have good locations near by. It's a lot of hassle moving pins and changing the collection up frequently, and the truth is, every game gets old after a while so there is not much benifit in swapping out.

    Build your collection around games based on your preferred style and you will find you will play them much more then if you base them in theme. If you play your games more often you will enjoy the hobby a lot more gaurenteed.

    I have no problem per say with new tables being priced at 9k as I have spent that on machines before. However I do believe that there is a lot higher potential for buyers remorse on nib at this price. With older games you know what you getting as far as gameplay rules etc. if you do your homework and really check a table over before dropping 9K you will most likely be happy with your purchase and get 1000 of hours of entirtainment. I find it hard to believe that people are going to have the opportunity with newer games to spend the time on them to really feel 100% sure this is a table that they would be happy with, and is a 100% keeper. personally to feel that comfortable would take a 50 hours or play on a table, many many months. We all have themes we believe can provide the perfect pinball experience, but pinball needs to be played not imagined. Sometimes our dreams and reality are very different. The truth of this argument is that the people going in on say Dialled in at 9k or Batman 66 at 10-15k are doing so because they are in a financial position, where they can afford to take a hit on the game if it turns out not to be all they hoped. 9k is not the high end price of pinball it's just a lot of money to be throwing at games you have had very little hands on experience with.

    #28 2 years ago

    Truly appreciating these responses....( reading while in a meeting at work)

    #29 2 years ago

    I just like to walk out in my garage,look around at my collectionand say,I love you?

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from romulusx:

    I just like to walk out in my garage,look around at my collectionand say,I love you?

    You do have a nice collection.

    -1
    #31 2 years ago

    Time pieces. Some people need to have the most expensive watch that costs $15k. Other people are perfectly fine knowing their phone keeps accurate time. The hobby is big enough for all of us. People can spend as much as they want faic, as long as there are affordable alternatives for the rest of us, i really don't care.

    And if i ever want to play one of these machines I can always seek out one of my wealthy pinside friends and invite myself over. People always seem to love sharing their hobby...

    #32 2 years ago

    Bought Grand Lizard for $350. Will never sell it. Ever.

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    A newly released game is never going to be a 'grail' game for me.

    A new release game could be a grail theme for a lot of people, such as Lord of the Rings and Ghostbusters (and Batman '66).

    Quoted from romulusx:

    I just like to look around at my collection and say I love you.

    My game room is filled with my personal favorites. I like some of the new releases, but not enough to want to replace anything I have. (SW:E1 is my least favorite in the room, but I still think it is worth having both P2K games in my collection.)

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from romulusx:

    I just like to walk out in my garage,look around at my collectionand say,I love you?

    I like to walk around my house and say WTF did you do to this place?

    Sorry, this is not my market but I do want to play everything. It is hard for me to justify $9K for a pin when I have 4 Lawlor pins (TZ, TAF, ES and Funhouse) and I paid $8K for them combined. I don't need them NIB to play them.

    #35 2 years ago

    If new game quality, gameplay, construction and performance matched the increase of prices proportionally coupled with the normal offset of economy inflation over time I would not have have any issues.
    The problem is as a "complete package" they do not anymore.
    In the past five years, there has been the highest price increase in the shortest amount of time in the entire history of pinball.
    The value is no longer equitable.
    I am speaking from watching NIB pinball prices since the mid 1980s in my case, a few others here are older in the hobby.

    Some people may state games were undervalued, but used game values were on par based on 20 year equipment.
    New games based on construction costs and development are priced over 50% or higher profit margin over production cost.
    In some cases the profit margin is just insanely high.
    Anyone that was around for the purchase of a NIB TAF Special Collector's Edition will understand.

    A potential owner that looks at BM66 SLE and can justify it is a $15K game are smoking crack even if money is no concern.
    Stern actually went backwards both in innovation and development over GB.
    We don't need batcopter off-the-shelf toys and a Batman flashlight signal bought from Walmart in games.
    This certainly should not raise the price by $5000.
    This is a thrown back to Stern games made in the 2000s with other cheap molded toys for kids.
    Regardless of how the game may play based on a retheme with a few different gadgets and artwork, it is a point of embarrassment.

    At least Dialed In used original production toys that were specifically molded, crafted, and developed for JJP.
    JJP continues to demonstrate an overall higher level of quality and manufacturing, but raised prices again to follow the suit of Stern.

    If for example Houdini is actually ever made in quantity, exhibits a high level of construction and gameplay, and is listed at $6995, it will bounce manufacturers to rethink their strategies of "sell less for more" to equalize profit margins.

    I don't want a $9K standard NIB game when I can still buy 3-4 Bally/WMS game for this price with a lot of evaluation on quality.
    It might take a bit longer now, but I can still find them.

    #36 2 years ago
    Quoted from Taxman:

    I have 4 Lawlor pins (TZ, TAF, ES and Funhouse) and I paid $8K for them combined

    That is just wrong!!!!( good for you, though)..

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