(Topic ID: 57749)

oh oh! In trouble with the CITY for selling games on CL


By eXidy

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Gexchange
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    #1 6 years ago

    oh oh! In trouble with the CITY again I posted this on klov too, but thought you guys would find this interesting.

    Looks like I got in trouble for selling games on CL. I list around 2-4 a month, sometimes a little less but never more. City has asked me to stop selling games or get a business license
    The problem isnt with the taxes, but selling games from a residential neighborhood.

    I think the real problem is the fact that I move a lot of games into my house and back/fourth to the 1up/2up. They think its heaving traffic of game moving.

    For people who dont know, here is what happened to me over 10 years ago:

    warning2.jpg

    #3 6 years ago

    Always someone wanting to get their hands in your pocket....

    #4 6 years ago

    Sounds like the city officals have too much time on their hands.... maybe they should spend it chasing actual criminals instead of messing with a hobbyist.. wth indeed..

    #5 6 years ago

    Wow... Just... Wow...

    10
    #6 6 years ago

    sounds like you have neighbors with nothing else better to do.

    #7 6 years ago

    Come on, guy outs himself as a flipper and nobody is going nuts?

    j/k

    #8 6 years ago

    Just like every other collector, I buy, sell and trade games.

    "flipping" is part of the hobby whether people like it or not. Either way, I never said I was innocent here, but its ridiculous how the city has nothing better to do. I live in a nice neighborhood and never have people come at night, nor do I cause any kind of trouble regarding traffic.

    #9 6 years ago
    Quoted from jonogo:

    Sounds like the city officals have too much time on their hands.... maybe they should spend it chasing actual criminals instead of messing with a hobbyist.. wth indeed..

    It is some nosy ass neighbor with too much time on their hands using harassment by county/city.
    Code enforcement, CPS, animal control just let your fingers do the walking there are dozens of these people they can call.
    None of them will tell you who it is and there is no penalty for them making false reports, these agencies are all funded based on the amount of calls they go out on so the more the merrier.
    Your tax dollars at work.

    #10 6 years ago
    Quoted from eXidy:

    I think the real problem is the fact that I move a lot of games into my house and back/fourth to the 1up/2up.

    Well if you're moving games back and forth from a business, that is business related. Business licenses usually don't cost that much. If you're moving that many games a month, you should probably get one.

    You'll enjoy the part where you tell them you sell pinball machines and they scratch their heads trying to figure out which category to put you in. (appliance sales)

    #11 6 years ago

    It was a joke, that's why I put the j/k (just kidding).

    It's obvious you aren't doing anything wrong, you just have some neighbors/retail competition/asshats that called in a complaint on you.

    I can't see how they could enforce this. Everyone selling anything on ebay or craigslist would be as guilty as you are, including myself.

    #12 6 years ago

    Damn that is an old video

    Are those Bugle Boy jeans you're wearing

    JK man!

    Best of luck bro

    #13 6 years ago

    Mail Randy back a picture of your bare ass

    #14 6 years ago

    Keep up the good work, you are a good guy to deal with, hope the neighbors get off your back. By the way I'll still be a pia buyer when it comes to negotiating, nothing personal I'm sure I'll do business again, best of luck Jon

    #15 6 years ago

    Parker is known for being Fun to say the least. They want you to get a business license then as soon as you do they will expect tax rev as well. this is a Money driven. But I'm sure one of your Neighbors called you in as well.

    Did you talk to the inspector? or did he just drop that and leave?

    Might be able to talk to him and explain you work for 1up/2up and most of it is games of theres that you are picking up / bringing back / repairing / moving from location to location and that you are selling any games other then your own personal hobby games.

    #16 6 years ago

    Took a look at the Parker, CO government site ... Found this link which outlines "home-based businesses" regulations - I believe you meet all of them?

    http://www.parkeronline.org/DocumentView.aspx?DID=1667

    Also, business license is $20 for Parker, CO ... seems like the easier route.

    #17 6 years ago

    im going to get a business license, maybe tomorrow. but im thinking its not gonna happen.
    the city guy that came to my house said my neighborhood isnt zoned for such a business.
    I explained to him most of the movement is from my business downtown and he said "there is no problem regarding that". Just the fact that im selling games from a residential area.

    btw, he had a print out of all my CL games from 2 months back! including an xmen and mm. that didnt look to good hahhaha.

    #18 6 years ago

    Can't you list the deals differently? Like they are coming from the bars.... Has to be some sort of workaround, where you work on the games at home and sell them somewhere else, or just make it so you have to meet everyone somewhere else... Idk.

    #19 6 years ago

    How did he link all of the craigslist ads together?

    #20 6 years ago

    So you can grow pot and in CO and that is OK but selling pins you need a license? I kind of wonder who has been smoking what at City Hall!

    It is funny with the fine line between business and hobby. According to IRS if you are in business and take a loss 3 of 5 years it isn't a business it is a hobby. Yet because you buy and sell something - neighbors & city think you are in business.

    I learned years ago the best way is to register everything I am involved with as a business basically from day one and then keep taking losses until IRS tells me it is a hobby because I keep loosing money at it. Then when city state, or local call it a business I can use IRS paperwork to prove it isn't.

    And if any of you do your homework, write off your expenses, keep track of you cost & mileage, etc. - most will find you are not making any money so it is actually a hobby according to IRS. Write offs are your friend when in business!

    #21 6 years ago

    Quick & easy solution is rent a small mini storage unit and have customers meet you at storage. Then just run machines off a generator if you can't find a storage unit close to you with some type of electric.

    #22 6 years ago

    Maybe your neighbours are complaining to the city about all the traffic and game moving?

    #23 6 years ago

    Yeah thats the case, they see me moving stuff in and out and they think im selling those games.

    #24 6 years ago
    Quoted from eXidy:

    I live in a nice neighborhood and never have people come at night, nor do I cause any kind of trouble regarding traffic.

    There is the problem right there. I would have pinball parties starting at 11:00pm to 3:00am on Tuesdays, Thursdays the every so often Monday. I would do this to the point that your neighbors would become extremely ecstatic that the only traffic was the occasional game going in and out, they would welcome that once again.

    BTW the volume nothing less then 20, subwoofers mandatory!

    15
    #25 6 years ago

    Tell them to FO and write you a ticket. They have to prove in court that you are running a business out of your home. Bring in your tax return to show the judge you are not running a business. I've done code enforcement work for years since retiring from the PD and that charge against you would not hold up in court. We would not even be able to get a warrant authorization on it unless we could prove you had employees. I had one guy who had two commercial trucks (one in the garage and one parked in the driveway) at his house from 6 PM till 6 AM, and two of his obvious employees vehicles parked in the street during the daytime hours. I still could not get a warrant charging him with running a business out of his home. An allegation is one thing....having proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" is another. And once you get a business license you are just asking for more problems usually.
    Your are enjoying your "hobby" and have the freedom to move games about as you please. Just because a commercial truck might be dropping off games does not mean you are running a business. Your neighbors get furniture delivered from shippers don't they?
    Just remember....its your hobby. So the city will not be able to prove you are running a business unless one of the neighbors shows up to testify that you told them you do it for profit. One of your neighbors had to complain for the warning to be issued. Doubtful your neighbor would "out" themselves over it.
    Worst case scenario is renting a space somewhere. Once you get a business license you might have to show a tax return, get a tax ID number, prove insurance, start an LCC etc. And even with that your neighbor might call the IRS and allege you are evading taxes. And if the city changes it ordinances later to not allow a business license out of the home you are screwed. Nip it at the bud and tell the city to take you to court and prove it.
    Worst case scenario is what??? A $100 fine? I'd gamble on winning for a hundie.

    #26 6 years ago

    I'd be careful with that one. Cities have a LONG memory.

    You could get them on your a** forever.

    LTG : )

    #27 6 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    How did he link all of the craigslist ads together?

    If he includes the phone number you can link up that way.

    #28 6 years ago
    Quoted from Stack15:

    If he includes the phone number you can link up that way.

    I am hoping that isn't the answer.

    It could have also been pictures in the ad showed the same house/garage.

    #29 6 years ago

    i think they looked up my phone # and city.

    i can easily list stuff without my # and a vague location to get around this fairly easily if i have to, but ill find out tomorrow about the biz license.

    #30 6 years ago

    Basically you're being classified the same as the neighborhood drug dealer. People coming and going, bringing and taking "product."

    It's pretty simple though, stop posting contact info in the ad... make it available only through email response. That way it's harder for them to track every transaction, and you're 2-4 games look more like 1-2.

    #31 6 years ago

    They did the same thing to my dad because he had 1 too many rummage sales in a given year. I think he had 4 and the max was 3?? The neighbor who called the cops on him has a weekly plant sale every Saturday morning, 6-noon. How's that for hypocritical?

    #32 6 years ago

    You can out who reported you. Do a freedom of information request, and figure out who is a ass on the street.

    #33 6 years ago

    I say pay the $20 a year and get the business license.

    It's the same price as a 2 day garage sale permit, so no big deal.....

    .....BUT it will drive the nosy neighbors crazy because you will continue to sell games out of your house unabated.

    #34 6 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    I say pay the $20 a year and get the business license.
    It's the same price as a 2 day garage sale permit, so no big deal.....
    .....BUT it will drive the nosy neighbors crazy because you will continue to sell games out of your house unabated.

    If he does that then he is admitting it is a business and not a hobby and since he is zoned residential then they can screw with him.
    I built my house in an unincorporated area on purpose and we all vote cityhood down every time they put it on the ballot.
    County is bad enough without having another bunch of useless clipboard idiots to pay.

    #35 6 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    I say pay the $20 a year and get the business license.
    It's the same price as a 2 day garage sale permit, so no big deal.....
    .....BUT it will drive the nosy neighbors crazy because you will continue to sell games out of your house unabated.

    Garage sale permits? Mind blown.

    Maybe you could link these two things together. "It's an 'ongoing' garage sale..."

    #36 6 years ago
    Quoted from tracelifter:

    If he does that then he is admitting it is a business and not a hobby and since he is zoned residential then they can screw with him.

    I agree with this 100%
    If you get a business license you are just asking for more trouble then you can imagine.
    Don't let them win.

    #37 6 years ago
    Quoted from tracelifter:

    If he does that then he is admitting it is a business and not a hobby and since he is zoned residential then they can screw with him.

    That ticket from the city says "home based business w/o a license".

    So get the license and operate out of the home. Just like Avon, dog groomers, massage therapists, and insurance agents do.

    #38 6 years ago

    You could start tax deducting part of your house& mortgage payment as business expenses, even your gameroom is now your "show room"

    Stick it to them!

    #39 6 years ago

    Good grief, no wonder the rural counties in Colorado want to split and form the state of North Colorado.

    #40 6 years ago

    If you get a business license, make it a business like centerflank said. Go all out and make it work for you. Make sure it is sales and not operation. That is a different license in most places.

    #41 6 years ago
    Quoted from playernumber4:

    Tell them to FO and write you a ticket. They have to prove in court that you are running a business out of your home. Bring in your tax return to show the judge you are not running a business. I've done code enforcement work for years since retiring from the PD and that charge against you would not hold up in court. We would not even be able to get a warrant authorization on it unless we could prove you had employees. I had one guy who had two commercial trucks (one in the garage and one parked in the driveway) at his house from 6 PM till 6 AM, and two of his obvious employees vehicles parked in the street during the daytime hours. I still could not get a warrant charging him with running a business out of his home. An allegation is one thing....having proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" is another. And once you get a business license you are just asking for more problems usually.
    Your are enjoying your "hobby" and have the freedom to move games about as you please. Just because a commercial truck might be dropping off games does not mean you are running a business. Your neighbors get furniture delivered from shippers don't they?
    Just remember....its your hobby. So the city will not be able to prove you are running a business unless one of the neighbors shows up to testify that you told them you do it for profit. One of your neighbors had to complain for the warning to be issued. Doubtful your neighbor would "out" themselves over it.
    Worst case scenario is renting a space somewhere. Once you get a business license you might have to show a tax return, get a tax ID number, prove insurance, start an LCC etc. And even with that your neighbor might call the IRS and allege you are evading taxes. And if the city changes it ordinances later to not allow a business license out of the home you are screwed. Nip it at the bud and tell the city to take you to court and prove it.
    Worst case scenario is what??? A $100 fine? I'd gamble on winning for a hundie.

    ^^^^ Forget the business license, and do what this guy says

    #42 6 years ago

    I got a warning like that before about cars. I did a lot of flipping for fun because I liked the cars and did not want to see them taken to the junk yard. I went and told them it was a hobby. They asked how I could prove it. I told them they same way they could prove it was a business, there is none. Some states count title transfers, they did not and there was no magic # to be a dealer.

    Car repair was not what I did full time day to day so this was a hobby tied to my racing. They ended up taking my word on it. They left me alone and I was also able to see the info about the "complaint." It was a "friend" that I had helped many times. I did not help him any longer and he avoided me. I did not even have to say anything to him. I was not going to save somebody $100 hr on their car working on it for free if they were going to stab me and there was no way I could charge for it as a hobby.

    #43 6 years ago
    Quoted from eXidy:

    SNIPPPPP " he had a print out of all my CL games from 2 months back! including an xmen and mm. that didnt look to good hahhaha.

    scary

    #44 6 years ago

    I would not recommend getting a business license if you are NOT a business. Look forward to a lot of headaches. Many states also require you to obtain a state license. On top of that you may need to obtain a Sales Tax license, then collect & report sales & taxes to the city and state. In my case I also had to apply for a fictitious name, and pay .1% of my gross sales to the city. And now because you are a business, you get calls and junk mail from credit card processing places and insurance companies, and companies that want to sell you training material for your employees. Don't forget the fire inspection! Once I ignored, because I didn't quite understand, a request for a list of my business assets (computers, furniture, tools, etc) and ended up paying more than $50 but less than $100 because they estimated it for me, when in reality it would have been zero. And they don't change their minds. I asked why last year it was $0.00 and this year they estimated $1000, where did that come from and they said they didn't know. They even hounded me when I moved out of state because I didn't properly "close" my business in writing. But hey, the IRS audits are fun!

    #45 6 years ago

    There is no reason to be concerned about being zoned residential - you meet every single obligation to be a "home-based business" according to their own documents:

    http://www.parkeronline.org/DocumentView.aspx?DID=1667

    #46 6 years ago
    Quoted from absocountry2:

    I got a warning like that before about cars. I did a lot of flipping for fun because I liked the cars and did not want to see them taken to the Junk Yard. I went and told them it was a hobby. They asked how I could prove it. I told them they same way they could prove it was a business, there is none. Some states count title transfers, they did not and there was no magic # to be a dealer.
    Car repair was not what I did full time day to day so this was a hobby tied to my racing. They ended up taking my word on it. They left me alone and I was also able to see the info about the "complaint." It was a "friend" that I had helped many times. I did not help him any longer and he avoided me. I did not even have to say anything to him. I was not going to save somebody $100 hr on their car working on it for free if they were going to stab me and there was no way I could charge for it as a hobby.

    The easy way to prove something is a business is if it is profitable, or mostly profitable. I may think it's "fun" and a "hobby" to flip things on Ebay - but if I'm making money doing it - then pretty simple it's a business. If you fix things and give them away, or sell them at your original cost because it's fun, then it's a hobby. On the other hand, "fun" does not define a hobby as well - just because work is fun doesn't make it a hobby instead of a business.

    #47 6 years ago
    Quoted from playernumber4:

    Tell them to FO and write you a ticket. They have to prove in court that you are running a business out of your home. Bring in your tax return to show the judge you are not running a business. I've done code enforcement work for years since retiring from the PD and that charge against you would not hold up in court. We would not even be able to get a warrant authorization on it unless we could prove you had employees. I had one guy who had two commercial trucks (one in the garage and one parked in the driveway) at his house from 6 PM till 6 AM, and two of his obvious employees vehicles parked in the street during the daytime hours. I still could not get a warrant charging him with running a business out of his home. An allegation is one thing....having proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" is another. And once you get a business license you are just asking for more problems usually.
    Your are enjoying your "hobby" and have the freedom to move games about as you please. Just because a commercial truck might be dropping off games does not mean you are running a business. Your neighbors get furniture delivered from shippers don't they?
    Just remember....its your hobby. So the city will not be able to prove you are running a business unless one of the neighbors shows up to testify that you told them you do it for profit. One of your neighbors had to complain for the warning to be issued. Doubtful your neighbor would "out" themselves over it.
    Worst case scenario is renting a space somewhere. Once you get a business license you might have to show a tax return, get a tax ID number, prove insurance, start an LCC etc. And even with that your neighbor might call the IRS and allege you are evading taxes. And if the city changes it ordinances later to not allow a business license out of the home you are screwed. Nip it at the bud and tell the city to take you to court and prove it.
    Worst case scenario is what??? A $100 fine? I'd gamble on winning for a hundie.

    That's nice to say and all - but in reality - time is money. Is paying $20 for a business license actually worth all this time (possibly) invested in court, responding to notices, etc?

    #48 6 years ago

    man, they are coming to inspect you next wednesday ... get the booby traps ready!

    #49 6 years ago
    Quoted from Eryeal:

    That's nice to say and all - but in reality - time is money. Is paying $20 for a business license actually worth all this time (possibly) invested in court, responding to notices, etc?

    Probably not but that legal concession could subject him to a whole new level of scrutiny he does not want.

    #50 6 years ago

    So how many sales constitute a "business"? I'd love to hear the guy that issued the paperwork answer that. What constitutes a business if you're not earning your living from it?

    Also, getting a business license probably would subject you to a load of other crap since now you're acknowledging it's a business. Things like personal property tax, OSHA requirements (ie: you're moving heavy machines up and down and are you doing it with safety equipment, etc. All it takes is a guy from OSHA seeing it and you're on the hook for fines), zoning requirements, other permits, etc.

    Best of luck dude!
    Jaz

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