(Topic ID: 72642)

Oh Carp, mt F-14 just took a dump on me. HELP!!


By GPS

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 110 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Patofnaud
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 110 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 5 years ago

Hi Guys,

Kids were playing the F-14 and happy as a clam. The game then reported Adjust Switch 28, Pop Bumper 28. Is there anyone out there that might be able to help me walk through this. Major bummer.

Thanks Guys,

George

#2 5 years ago

Just looked in the manual and accordingly, switch 28 goes to the Jet bumper in the center of the playfield. Really hope someone out there has seen this or has a clue what is going on.

Thanks again guys,

George

#4 5 years ago

Hey Vid,

Can you give some dialogue here as to explaining what may have occurred. familair with this particualr game. What the F happened?

G

#5 5 years ago

Do I have to go all out and reaplce the whole assembly or just adjust a switch.

#7 5 years ago

It could be just a switch out, F-14 will come up with that error if a switch hasn't been activated in a certain amount of games. Could just be a wire come loose on it is all. You need to open her up and look about.

#8 5 years ago

Hey Zip,

I presume on that pop bumper correct?

G

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from zippydapinhead:

.

carp-14.jpg 60 KB

NICE!!

#10 5 years ago

Put the game in switch test mode.

Press the skirt around the bumper and see if the proper number registers on the display. Are all the other switches on the playfield working?

If yes, then you are probably OK.

If no, then take the balls out, lift the playfield and physically examine the switch, wires, diodes, caps, contacts - report back with pictures.

#11 5 years ago

That is a nice looking carp, BTW.

#12 5 years ago

Took way too long though

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

Hey Zip,

I presume on that pop bumper correct?

yes

Quoted from vid1900:

Put the game in switch test mode.

Press the skirt around the bumper and see if the proper number registers on the display. Are all the other switches on the playfield working?

If yes, then you are probably OK.

If no, then take the balls out, lift the playfield and physically examine the switch, wires, diodes, caps, contacts - report back with pictures.

What Vid said, he's the f-14 guru around here!

#14 5 years ago

Vid,

just lifted up the playfield and looked at the switch. All wiring seems to be intact will try to do the switch test and see what i can discover

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from zippydapinhead:

yes

What Vid said, he's the f-14 guru around here!

That's kinda sad, isn't it?

#16 5 years ago

hello All,

Just took the balls out of the machine and did the switch test. third player window says switch 05 I am assuming this window should be blank if all is OK right. When I initially turn the machine on it is saying check switch 28 pop bumper 28 though when i manually activate that switch the pop bumper seems to works just fine

Also when i turn the machine on i get the following messages in the windows
1 F-14
2 Tomcat
3 ID 00
4 554 r-1 (maybe the fives are s's)

Does this make for any help or just more confusion.

Thanks all,

george

#17 5 years ago

when i do the switch test vid the game recognizes switch 28 ok that other switch though 05 seems like it is always on because it never leaves the third player window in the switch test

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

when i do the switch test vid the game recognizes switch 28 ok that other switch though 05 seems like it is always on because it never leaves the third player window in the switch test

05 is I think one of the coin mechs?

#19 5 years ago

forget the comment about the numeral five that must just be the number of the test. i have found two switches that will not respond. the left front round disk (where there are two right next to each other) mid playfiled and them the M in TOM in the upper left top portion of the playfiled. Obviously not right but it does not appear the game is indicating that is the issue

#20 5 years ago

The 05 is jsut the test number. Forget about that vid. My newbie misunderstanding. Please check what I just posted to see if this makes any sense

#21 5 years ago

Check the wiring around the non registering switches, jiggle them good, sometimes a solder joint comes loose but they look ok to the eye.

#22 5 years ago

And a miss adjusted switch isn't a 'dump' its normal for pins.

Now if your input bridge burnt and you had it unfused,,, that would be a dump

#23 5 years ago

Found a bad solder joint on the right white disc center mid filed. this is tied with a yellow jumper to the left switch immediatley next door. re soldered that and now that switch registers on the switch test. i am going to proceed to the M in TOM in the upper playfield as that is not registering either when i activate it.

only thing that makes me nervous here is that neither one of these has anything to do with switch 28 but maybe together they are freakin the machine out. more work and report to come

you guys are the best!!

switch-472.JPG switch-295.JPG
#24 5 years ago

Ahh I see the pic did load just took forever to have it happen impatient bastard i am. Anyway, yellow jumper in the middle of the picture where that ties to the right switch the solder joint was really bad hope this is not shades of things to come with this game.

// Error: Image 161986 not found // // Error: Image 161989 not found //
#25 5 years ago

Bad solder joints are common, these are old games.

#26 5 years ago

UPDATE: GAME IS NOW WORKING. Reapired a broken wire on the M switch in TOM in the upper playfield. Guess the combination of the two switches failing togther possibly made it look like it was the pop bumper when in reality it had nothing to do with the popper

THANKS ALL,

George

// Error: Image 161986 not found // // Error: Image 161989 not found //
#27 5 years ago

Hey Zippy

The one appeared to be a broken wire which could have happened as a result of age but the other fault was absolutely a case of someone not knowing how to solder.

You guys are great!!!

// Error: Image 161986 not found // // Error: Image 161989 not found //
#28 5 years ago

Congrats on the repair !

Welcome to the world of the switch matrix.

#29 5 years ago

Glad she's up, now put some led's in it

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

UPDATE: GAME IS NOW WORKING. Reapired a broken wire on the M switch in TOM in the upper playfield. Guess the combination of the two switches failing togther possibly made it look like it was the pop bumper when in reality it had nothing to do with the popper
THANKS ALL,
George

You do realize that the switches are in a 'MATRIX' 8 switches in a row and 8 switches in a column for 64 switches. there are only 16 wires running to all 64 switches. So if one wire breaks downstream all switches past that don't work.

Think of it like those anoying xmas lights, when one goes out they all go out...

Looking at the switch matrix for F14, f14.JPG

the pop bumper scoring switch is in the same column as the two front stand up targets, so a broken wire on those will make the pop bumper scoring switch not work as well. You have to read both up and down and left to right.

When the machine told you the switch was bad, it was telling you it wasn't scoring and to fix the wire, a NORMAL thing for a pinball machine to do since it can't open itself up and solder back on its own broken wires...

#31 5 years ago

Good job GPS! As you get more experience with it, you'll find this kind of thing easier, and almost considered "routine".

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

As you get more experience with it, you'll find this kind of thing easier, and almost considered "routine".

If it ain't broke, it ain't pinball - Jersey Jack.

Truth.

#33 5 years ago

HI Guys,

So keeping in mind the switch matrix, one really cannot rely on the game to diagnose what is wrong. Initially, my game told me that the pop bumper switch needed adjustment when in reality it had nothing to do with the pop bumper but given how the game is wired, the game thought it could be the pop bumper. Note to self, when this arises again and from the sounds of things it very well may, check all the switches first and sort of ignore the specific switch and check them all as given the matrix, it may not be as it appears to the game.

Thanks again guys.

Anyone out there have a layout of where the clear platsics go on the F-14? I ordered a new set and received today but cannot figure out where a couple pieces go. Thought I was only missing the big piece top left but obvioulsy am missing more than I thought. Also, there appears to be standoffs that may be required to mount these clear plastics. If so they are msising as well and I need to get specs I guess to replicate them. Still kind of nervous about pop riveting the new plastics to the old. WOuld really prefer to use screws and lock nuts.

George

#34 5 years ago

Hey Wolf,

Thank you, it feels good to be able to handles these type of things one self than have to rely on having a repair guy come in. Vid's suggestion to check the switch reporting was a good idea. Now I know how to interpret those reports and importantly how not to.

Kids are back lovin the game again which is really why I bought it. It is OK to play but I still enjoy the old E/M's that I have as well.

Still need to get the clear plastics installed in the machine and then the battery holder clipped off the main board and relocated for safety's sake.

G

#35 5 years ago
Quoted from zippydapinhead:

Glad she's up, now put some led's in it

Led's came in the machine when I bought it Zip. At least that part is done.

G

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Congrats on the repair !
Welcome to the world of the switch matrix.

Appreciate your guidance Vid. Thank you

#37 5 years ago

Hi All,

Just wanted to update the thread. The switch 28, pop bumper 28 message is still coming across the displays on the F-14 occassionally. Although I had a couple non-working switches for which I repaired, I have noticed that the pop bumper does not work when the ball rolls up against it even though in the switch test that I performed, the switch was recognized by the machine and the pop bumper did actuate. Vid suggested that i adjust the switch so that it takes less to actuate it. Will do this and will report back with what I find by doing this.

After reading the manual I understand that this is normal for the machine to report that this bumper is not working.

Thanks to all,

George

#38 5 years ago

Hi All,

Update, Just did the switch test again and could not get the pop bumper to register or activate. Hoping it is a switch issue. It did work before when I did the switch test but not no more. Have to take a look at the wiring and the switch.

Thank you,

G

#39 5 years ago

Hey Vid, or anyone else with intimate F-14 knowledge, you out there?? Just found another hack in my machine that I just got. While I was working this eve to re-locate the battery holder from the board to the cabinet, I noticed that the knocker in the upper right of the back box had one of the wires cut to it. Why, no idea. Do you see any harm in re-connecting to at least see what happens?

Thank you

George

#40 5 years ago

Depends why it was cut.

If it was cut because someone hated knocker noise, then nothing will happen.
If cut because the coil is melted, then ba da boom you blow something up.

The correct question is, is there a way to test the coil BEFORE I hook it up.? Answer is yes.

Like any suspect coil look at it, if it is swollen, discolored and the plunger is hard to move. Stop and but a new coil/bushing.
If it look cleans and nothing is bound, then take and ohm meter and measure across the lugs, normally you will read a few or more ohms. If 0, you have a short somewhere, either the coil internally or the diode is shorted.
If it does read clean, then hook it back up, power it on and watch it as you power up. If it slams on power up, you have a logic problem, if not them your all set.

#41 5 years ago

Hey Pato,

Did all the evaluations that you aluded to prior and all told me that it was OK to proceed hooking it back up.

All good here I think. Checked the coil before I hooked it up and had about 3.6 ohms. Figured that was fine. Again, as you noted as long as I did not have a dead short. No discoloration to the coild etc. Knocker is back in biz.

No slam on power up.

G

#42 5 years ago

keep learning GPS? You will need some of this knowledge if you plan on owning pinball machines for sure. For all else, ask here on pinside. Most of thse guys are great and offer up their many years of experience..just to help out a stranger--Awesome. Where else does this happen? My F-14 is up and playing perfectly mostly because of the helpful folks on here.

Mike

#43 5 years ago

Allow me to second what you said Mike. Amen.

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

So keeping in mind the switch matrix, one really cannot rely on the game to diagnose what is wrong. Initially, my game told me that the pop bumper switch needed adjustment when in reality it had nothing to do with the pop bumper

Just to expand on this thought:
The diagnostic tests might not tell you exactly what the problem is but they are very important to find clues and reveal the overall health of the system, and also allow you to test the performance of the repair work after completion. It's one of the first things to do to assimilate clues and a path of troubleshooting at the start, for example if a feature coil doesn't work - you need to determine if the problem is the coil activating circuit, or the switch, or the logic between. Without the switch and coil tests that would take much more time.

Also remember that the diagnostic tests are designed around a fully working game that is wired correctly.

#45 5 years ago

Another thing to keep in mind, the adjust failure test is actually watching the switches in a machine that are activated 'over time' and are not really a diagnostic per se'.

For example my Demolition Man commonly shows a credit dot adjust failure because I NEVER use my flipper buttons. I always use the trigger grip handles. It reports it becuase somewhere it notices that those switches are not registering, so they must be bad.

In you case the adjust failure is registering because the machine is not seeing that switch happen during a few games and it know it is a major switch and should have. Does that mean the switch is 'bad'? No, it means it has not seen it register. That could be a bad switch, it usually is not a broken wire unless multiples register, but usually it is a 'adjust' failure.

Easiest way to test, put it in switch edge test with NO balls in the machine, and manually hit the 'skirt' of the pop bumper. If you register your good, if you have to push real hard, them your going to have trouble with the ball activating it. Look under the playfield and make sure the 'rod' is in the middle of the 'spoon'. If it is, then adjust the 'score switch' not the pop bumper coil switch, so that it is closer twhen not engaged until it register with minimal pressure on the skirt.

Note: When you lift the playfield you may start registering one of the two spinner targets due to gravity making them turn. Just ignore them or bind them up with a cloth or paper towel until your done.

#46 5 years ago

Hello Pato,

Regarding the pop bumper, it seemed like the last time I tried to manually activate it I had to push harder than I would have expected on the skirt to get the pop bumper to fire. You speak of a "score switch", where wouold this be? I thought that there was only the switch on the skirt and that in turn when activated would trigger the coil to fire the pop bumper. Am I mistaken here?

#47 5 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

it seemed like the last time I tried to manually activate it I had to push harder than I would have expected on the skirt to get the pop bumper to fire. You speak of a "score switch", where wouold this be? I thought that there was only the switch on the skirt and that in turn when activated would trigger the coil to fire the pop bumper. Am I mistaken here?

I believe you are correct. I'm not sure what Patofnaud means because as I recall there is only one switch under there, the one directly under the skirt as you mentioned. That is the one that needs to be adjusted if you're having a hard time actuating it manually.

#48 5 years ago
Quoted from dmklunk:

I believe you are correct. I'm not sure what Patofnaud means because as I recall there is only one switch under there, the one directly under the skirt as you mentioned. That is the one that needs to be adjusted if you're having a hard time actuating it manually.

This is all that I was aware of. When the switch tripped from the skirt of the pop, it triggered the pop. Maybe there is more to it than that. Seems like my pop does work occassionally but not like it should and again, I go back to what Vid says that it is probably an adjustment issue Just wish that darn package was'nt so far down on the playfield!!

Will try and look at that this eve and try and get a picture of it as it sits so I can help to determine what the current state of the switch is.

#49 5 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

Seems like my pop does work occassionally but not like it should

This almost certainly indicates an adjustment issue in this case. It shouldn't be that hard, just gently bend the switches closer together and give it a try. It needs to be set that the slightest hit will trigger it but that vibration doesn't set it off. Just a matter of trial and error. Be patient with it, you'll get it eventually.

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from dmklunk:

I believe you are correct. I'm not sure what Patofnaud means because as I recall there is only one switch under there, the one directly under the skirt as you mentioned. That is the one that needs to be adjusted if you're having a hard time actuating it manually.

You should find a DOUBLE stacked switch on Tomcat's pop bumper, if not someone has modified that game.

F-14 is a Sys 11A and prior to Big Guns there were 2 switches, one for activation by the spoon and and another for scoring. The original thought was that without delay through the logic, the special solenoids (pops & slings) would respond quicker. The spoon switch is not a part of the switch matrix, so won't show up on the switch edge test. The signal does run thru the main board (to trigger the transistor to fire the coil), but it's not CPU controlled so not part of the matrix. The scoring switch is the one you will see on the switch matrix test. Eventually Williams made these special solenoids CPU controlled, to help to prevent them from locking on.

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