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(Topic ID: 281817)

Official Williams and Bally software upgrades


By soren

13 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 273 posts
  • 124 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 21 hours ago by djsolzs
  • Topic is favorited by 149 Pinsiders
  • Topic is sticky in its sub-forum

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There are 273 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 6.
#151 9 days ago
Quoted from Manny65:

I don't believe that the original tools and systems used for the code creation still exist and Soren has indicated that his modifications are without access to any documentation. So it's impressive work

PPS has said that they do have access to the original source code. How much that includes documentation and/or tools has not been mentioned.

#152 9 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

PPS has said that they do have access to the original source code. How much that includes documentation and/or tools has not been mentioned.

I would have to assume the original source code and tools still exist somewhere. Hard to believe that Williams/Bally would delete all of that. Even if they did, something tells me that someone still has the code / tools.

A setup to use the stuff is a different story. I bet it was compiled on a system running DOS, at best. Good luck getting that to run on a modern PC.

Point being, I bet this is being done with the original source and compiler on a vintage PC, running DOS or similar. Yack.

18
#153 9 days ago

I guess it's hard to comprehend ... PPS has the original source code and the tools to compile the original source code. Wondering how many posts it will take for someone to suppose that we do not ... again. PPS have had the source compiled and have all the Apple OS, etc. We also have all the P2K code as well, etc. And being the licensee, we are able to make authorized modifications to the original code - whatever approach works best, and that is what we have started doing with Soren.

oy.

#154 9 days ago
Quoted from PPS:

I guess it's hard to comprehend ... PPS has the original source code and the tools to compile the original source code. Wondering how many posts it will take for someone to suppose that we do not ... again. PPS have had the source compiled and have all the Apple OS, etc. We also have all the P2K code as well, etc. And being the licensee, we are able to make authorized modifications to the original code - whatever approach works best, and that is what we have started doing with Soren.
oy.

I think the battle you are really fighting is the disbelief that it would have taken this long for updates to finally happen given all the code and tools still exist and are available.

#155 9 days ago

Not really viewed it as a battle ... Just prefer the facts.

#156 9 days ago

Thank you soren and PPS for this great news!! Really looking forward to what you guys have planned for the future! Appreciate all the hard work going into this to support the pinball community, and giving additional life to these games.

#157 9 days ago
Quoted from PPS:

I guess it's hard to comprehend ... PPS has the original source code and the tools to compile the original source code. Wondering how many posts it will take for someone to suppose that we do not ... again. PPS have had the source compiled and have all the Apple OS, etc. We also have all the P2K code as well, etc. And being the licensee, we are able to make authorized modifications to the original code - whatever approach works best, and that is what we have started doing with Soren.
oy.

Thank you for clarifying. I'm not only excited for what this means for future s/w updates but also from a nostalgia and preserving pinball history. As a techie at heart I'd love to read about how WMS created their code, the systems and tools they used; I'm always amazed at the speed they churned out games and surprised that there's so few bugs. I've read various interviews with some of the software designers from back in the day, they've got such great stories and I always get intrigued as to the systems they used.

#158 9 days ago
Quoted from PPS:

I guess it's hard to comprehend ... PPS has the original source code and the tools to compile the original source code. Wondering how many posts it will take for someone to suppose that we do not ... again

Sorry, my intent was not to offend. I’m extremely happy that the W/B platform can get some of the love it needs. I already bought the CFTBL roms, good stuff, thanks!

#159 9 days ago
Quoted from PPS:

I guess it's hard to comprehend ... PPS has the original source code and the tools to compile the original source code. Wondering how many posts it will take for someone to suppose that we do not ... again. PPS have had the source compiled and have all the Apple OS, etc. We also have all the P2K code as well, etc. And being the licensee, we are able to make authorized modifications to the original code - whatever approach works best, and that is what we have started doing with Soren.
oy.

PPS does this mean updates will be coin-op friendly? ... I would Love to update my games especially Demo Man and Getaway!

#160 9 days ago

It's not hard at all to believe code and toolchain preserved for so many years. I work for an industrial automation company, and they services and made changes on machines created in 90s... and so, Dos, Windows 95, compilers, source codes... all archived. It's possible (and it was done) to service with source code those machines.

Way to go, Soren and PPS

10
#161 9 days ago

I can confirm we supplied to PPS all IP inc Source Codes Williams APPLE System and all software to compile the new Code.
We had backups of all Williams Hard Drives Inc All Software hardware and Designers.

#162 9 days ago

Only on pinside could a thread about offering bug fixes / updates to old pinball roms for literally a couple bucks turn into a argument lol. This place amazes me some times.

#163 9 days ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

not saying that and say paying $12-$13 to just download and not have to pay shipping costs = more to the programmer
hell people who play Virtual pinball may want to buy the roms and they really can't use chips.
and no sold out of chips

Updating a ROM chip on a 1995 board from a 2020 software download via web feels like a science project. Care to share the procedure?

#164 9 days ago

Wish I still had my ngg and that this was in scope for development. Serious bugs in the game but what a fabulous game. Miss it.

#165 9 days ago
Quoted from russdx:

Only on pinside could a thread about offering bug fixes / updates to old pinball roms for literally a couple bucks turn into a argument lol. This place amazes me some times.

Who’s arguing?

#166 9 days ago
Quoted from holminone:

Updating a ROM chip on a 1995 board from a 2020 software download via web feels like a science project. Care to share the procedure?

You need a rom burner and a set of spare eproms which I doubt very little people have, just having a fresh set of roms sent in the post is far better solution for probably 95% of buyers

#167 9 days ago

A steal at twice the price.

#168 9 days ago
Quoted from russdx:

You need a rom burner and a set of spare eproms which I doubt very little people have, just having a fresh set of roms sent in the post is far better solution for probably 95% of buyers

And honestly, buying the ROM pays what is probably very little to soren but still something for the time and effort he put in, and I hope it makes it more viable for him to continue on with other titles.

13
#169 9 days ago

soren Would be great if we could get 1.06 Judge Dredd code w/ the Deadworld "Mod" added back in.

Also, I'm a software engineer and offering to help for free however I can for any games. PM me if interested.

Thanks!

#170 9 days ago
Quoted from Seirif:

soren Would be great if we could get 1.06 Judge Dredd code w/ the Deadworld "Mod" added back in.

I second the Dredd request!

#171 9 days ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I second the Dredd request!

Dredd would be great.

#172 9 days ago

Found a small glitch on No Fear
When extra ball is lit and you re-lit for an second extra ball
When you collect you only get one . The second extra ball chance will not stay lit to collect

#173 9 days ago

Hmm. 5X playfield + multiball triple jackpot fix on White Water?

#174 9 days ago

CV: ability to disable Copy Cat video mode in the menu system and increase the % chance of getting Neon MB please. Never get to see it. And copy cat kills the action.

#175 9 days ago

Hitchhiker award lights and camera award volume bug on TZ. But that seems low priority given the bugs everyone else is describing....

#176 8 days ago

I hope Soren can fix the highy annoying bug where the ball either goes through the outlanes or stdm on all my games. I need ROM fixes for this asap

#177 8 days ago
Quoted from Crash:

Hmm. 5X playfield + multiball triple jackpot fix on White Water?

Exactly what fix are you looking for here? If they really gave you 15X jackpots in that case, the scoring would be completely unbalanced. 5X jackpots are pretty generous as it is.

#178 8 days ago

Really hoping for NGG code update would take this game to the next level - here to hoping!!

Quoted from holminone:

Wish I still had my ngg and that this was in scope for development. Serious bugs in the game but what a fabulous game. Miss it.

#179 8 days ago
Quoted from drgary:

Twilight Zone:
Dead end shot should become the jackpot relight instead of the left ramp.

Thats a great idea.

#180 8 days ago
Quoted from yellowghost:

Thats a great idea.

Keep in mind that this was how it originally was in prototype software - they removed it because it was too difficult.

#181 8 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Keep in mind that this was how it originally was in prototype software - they removed it because it was too difficult.

IMHO, dead end is the toughest shot in the game. Miss it and pay....

#182 8 days ago
Quoted from PinJim:

IMHO, dead end is the toughest shot in the game. Miss it and pay....

But it's so good when you can nail it - love the DMD animation and the sound affect that go along with it

#183 8 days ago
Quoted from Manny65:

But it's so good when you can nail it - love the DMD animation and the sound affect that go along with it

For sure, and it’s worthwhile as it doesn’t take long to get an EB lit. I’d say I hit it less than 50% of the time though...

#184 8 days ago

When I think of Williams/Bally games from the 90's that need code help, NGG is head of the line, just debugging it would be great, possibly the most underated DMD game because of the buggy software!!

#185 8 days ago

I agree with the others who have mentioned TOTAN:

1. Change ruby award choices so that you can never collect two jewels. This should be removed completely from the game and replaced with a random item that is pretty good (light locks, 15 lamps or 3x bonus, 3 tiger loops etc.)
2. Add more difficulty (more hits required) to modes cyclops, Rox, and mabye flying carpet - adjustable in adjustments.
3. Fix exploit with Harem and genie battle.

Aside from the genie exploit, these appear to be pretty basic (easy?) fixes to implement.

It would be REALLY nice to add something to the modes that are just "go for the golden symbols," but that's probably asking for too much!

16
#186 8 days ago

Hey all

Thank you for the interest, the positive respons, the suggestions and game wishes.

Sorry for not responding more to specific posts. But there has been a lot of them. And a lot to do in general this week. As for specific games and specific rules and features, I will rather take that up if and when that project is set to sea.

Let me level expectations a bit. I have a less-is-more approach to making these updates. Not saying that new features, like new champion scores, new modes or wizard modes to games that never got one, is out of the question. But my approach is far less ambitious, if you will, then that.

My approach is to fix bugs of the indisputable kind, to make a better luck/skill balance, to limit overwelming game features and like wise to lift features that are neglectable. Where a lot of the inspiration is how well the game is applicable to competition play.

I always strive for giving the game the additional iteration in developement, as I imaging the original designers could have done back then. Had they a) known of bugs it has taken years to discover, b) had competition play as a design goal and c) had the company been interested in perfecting the game. The last meaning to prioritise resources to update the games (year) after production had ceased and the last in stock was sold.

Round the game off, I say to myself. The playfield is there and cannot be changed and has to be true. Meaning score values and objectives written on it has to be true. With nothing made redundant. Same for DMD, sound and the overall concept and content. Just round it off. Give it the final polish.

The luck/skill for competiton play is a balance. Because, for better or for worse, having "you're lucky" elements in pinball is actually fun. When playing multiplayer games casually, lock stealing is fun. Having somebody devastated because an opponent gets the lucky mysery award is fun. And in coin play, the lucky boost can elevate the experience so players like to keep playing.

However, the lucky punch is not showing who the better pinball player is. In competition this cannot be too skewed. On the other hand, ripping out all random stuff can make a game dull and loose its charm. So, believe me, an efford is put into it to balance these things the best.

In this light, let me show you some of the consideration that led to the new Creature.

The Girl search is one in three random in a two ball multi w/o ball saver. And the right shot has a return that is usually hard to manage. So it is a considerable advantage to be having the luck of the girl at first attempt. One returning to the right flipper.

I wanted Girl search same for all players and decided on the girl at second Search made. And third after a jackpot achieved. More difficult, as the game is doubling the jackpot value.

The Unlimited millions mode is hugh compared to what else is offered on Snack bar and Playground award. Especially on Snack, as ball is fed to the right flipper.

For Playground it was obvious to have the three modes running in order. And I chose Unlimited millions to go first to have it as an early goal in the game. And an oppertunity in the mix with multi, Move your car etc.

For Snack bar it was more tricky. I came up with always having it as the first award after a multiball has been played. As victory laps. I knew this could be a tricky solution and put it under adjustments to enable/disable.

During our national championship last year I noticed how this design tended to run both options for Unlimited millions back-to-back. Simply from the natural rhythm of the game. I turned more cold against it for this reason. But did not have any better solution for how to have Unlimited millions at the Snack. So I decided to turn the adjustment to default off. And keep it in.

I completed Snack bar deterministic design by making the F/L/M letter the first one before first multiball.

With no furhter de-randomisation on Creature. And all three is only active when the game is set to tournament play. Otherwise they run as you know them.

#187 8 days ago

Anything for dirty harry, can’t seems to find it ....

Thx

#188 8 days ago
Quoted from soren:

Hey all
Thank you for the interest, the positive respons, the suggestions and game wishes.
Sorry for not responding more to specific posts. But there has been a lot of them. And a lot to do in general this week. As for specific games and specific rules and features, I will rather take that up if and when that project is set to sea.
Let me level expectations a bit. I have a less-is-more approach to making these updates. Not saying that new features, like new champion scores, new modes or wizard modes to games that never got one, is out of the question. But my approach is far less ambitious, if you will, then that.
My approach is to fix bugs of the indisputable kind, to make a better luck/skill balance, to limit overwelming game features and like wise to lift features that are neglectable. Where a lot of the inspiration is how well the game is applicable to competition play.
I always strive for giving the game the additional iteration in developement, as I imaging the original designers could have done back then. Had they a) known of bugs it has taken years to discover, b) had competition play as a design goal and c) had the company been interested in perfecting the game. The last meaning to prioritise resources to update the games (year) after production had ceased and the last in stock was sold.
Round the game off, I say to myself. The playfield is there and cannot be changed and has to be true. Meaning score values and objectives written on it has to be true. With nothing made redundant. Same for DMD, sound and the overall concept and content. Just round it off. Give it the final polish.
The luck/skill for competiton play is a balance. Because, for better or for worse, having "you're lucky" elements in pinball is actually fun. When playing multiplayer games casually, lock stealing is fun. Having somebody devastated because an opponent gets the lucky mysery award is fun. And in coin play, the lucky boost can elevate the experience so players like to keep playing.
However, the lucky punch is not showing who the better pinball player is. In competition this cannot be too skewed. On the other hand, ripping out all random stuff can make a game dull and loose its charm. So, believe me, an efford is put into it to balance these things the best.
In this light, let me show you some of the consideration that led to the new Creature.
The Girl search is one in three random in a two ball multi w/o ball saver. And the right shot has a return that is usually hard to manage. So it is a considerable advantage to be having the luck of the girl at first attempt. One returning to the right flipper.
I wanted Girl search same for all players and decided on the girl at second Search made. And third after a jackpot achieved. More difficult, as the game is doubling the jackpot value.
The Unlimited millions mode is hugh compared to what else is offered on Snack bar and Playground award. Especially on Snack, as ball is fed to the right flipper.
For Playground it was obvious to have the three modes running in order. And I chose Unlimited millions to go first to have it as an early goal in the game. And an oppertunity in the mix with multi, Move your car etc.
For Snack bar it was more tricky. I came up with always having it as the first award after a multiball has been played. As victory laps. I knew this could be a tricky solution and put it under adjustments to enable/disable.
During our national championship last year I noticed how this design tended to run both options for Unlimited millions back-to-back. Simply from the natural rhythm of the game. I turned more cold against it for this reason. But did not have any better solution for how to have Unlimited millions at the Snack. So I decided to turn the adjustment to default off. And keep it in.
I completed Snack bar deterministic design by making the F/L/M letter the first one before first multiball.
With no furhter de-randomisation on Creature. And all three is only active when the game is set to tournament play. Otherwise they run as you know them.

Thank you for all you have done and about to do, the pinball community avid players and casual players really appreciates it all.

#189 8 days ago

Thanks again Soren for all of your hard work and dedication. Also, your recent explanation of what the goals of your improvements consist of is very important for people to know. I totally agree with your thoughts to get rid of bugs but not attempt to totally change the game by making large changes. Although, many would like that, the basic nature of the game has been set originally.
I also understand your efforts to even out competition play by limiting certain large scoring shots and bonuses. Most of us have no idea of the amount of effort you have to take on to make major or even minor changes. Since most of the time, people are just playing at home or a bar for fun, I hope that as many of the changes possible that you are making can be a "feature adjustment" that can be turned on or off or even adjusted. I see that you are doing that already on your first releases, just hoping that you can continue with that approach without too much extra effort on your part. Then, people can pick and choose the ones they like.
Footnote to PPS and Soren: A new pair of slingshot plastics about $25; a new improved code for a 20-30 year old game about $25-- too good to be true.

#190 7 days ago

Wow! This is great news indeed!

I support the Judge Dredd idea as well: L1 can simply not be used when you often play multiplayer games, yet L7 only uses the deadworld for the last lock ball. Really hope, WMS left the old lock mechanism with a #define somewhere in the code

Another thing that would be nice with all games with midnight madness: If there is no valid system time on powerup, use some pseudo-random time (like a timer until the start button is pressed), so that when using an NVRAM without batteries, the first game is not always a midnight madness one

#191 7 days ago

Hopefully NGG bugs will be addressed and you'll take a great game to awesomeness if done.

#192 6 days ago

Bad news on CFTBL, the new ROM does not work well with the MikeD mod. It randomly turns off the video screen altogether rather than cueing up the next video as it should. Maybe it is just my game but the video worked perfectly before the ROM swap. It confused the heck out of it, as it took awhile for the video to trigger correctly every time after I put the old ROM back in. Seems to be back to normal now, I hope this can be fixed--love to have the new code.

#193 6 days ago
Quoted from Billy16:

Bad news on CFTBL, the new ROM does not work well with the MikeD mod. It randomly turns off the video screen altogether rather than cueing up the next video as it should. Maybe it is just my game but the video worked perfectly before the ROM swap. It confused the heck out of it, as it took awhile for the video to trigger correctly every time after I put the old ROM back in. Seems to be back to normal now, I hope this can be fixed--love to have the new code.

Wow. Good to know. I’ll hold off on picking this up until/if it can be corrected. The MikeD mod is one of the best features in my game.

#194 6 days ago
Quoted from Billy16:

Bad news on CFTBL, the new ROM does not work well with the MikeD mod. It randomly turns off the video screen altogether rather than cueing up the next video as it should. Maybe it is just my game but the video worked perfectly before the ROM swap. It confused the heck out of it, as it took awhile for the video to trigger correctly every time after I put the old ROM back in. Seems to be back to normal now, I hope this can be fixed--love to have the new code.

That’s not good to hear. I have not received my rom yet but was hoping it would work.

#195 6 days ago

Where is the ROM chip located on WPC-95 games, specifically Scared Stiff? Just got version 1.5 and need help knowing which one I swap.

#196 6 days ago
Quoted from yuriijos:

Where is the ROM chip located on WPC-95 games, specifically Scared Stiff?

On the CPU, check the manual.

LTG : )

#197 6 days ago
Quoted from yuriijos:

Where is the ROM chip located on WPC-95 games, specifically Scared Stiff? Just got version 1.5 and need help knowing which one I swap.

It's on the CPU board - see the yellow highlight (just make sure you put the new ROM in with the notch in the same orientation as the current one installed)
WPC95 - MPU board (resized).JPG

#198 6 days ago
Quoted from yuriijos:

Where is the ROM chip located on WPC-95 games, specifically Scared Stiff? Just got version 1.5 and need help knowing which one I swap.

Quoted from Manny65:

It's on the CPU board - see the yellow highlight (just make sure you put the new ROM in with the notch in the same orientation as the current one installed)

Processor is U4 - the left of the big three. 40 pins.

Game EPROM is G11 (U6 on WPC-89) - the center of the big three. 32 pins.

Memory SRAM is U8 - the right of the big three. 28 pins.

Don't forget that the software also needs the security PIC at G10 to work as well.

#199 6 days ago

soren
Could you clarify for those in Australia is there an option of purchasing direct from you?

Edit: found your website in the list to buy directly. Thanks for providing the choice of purchasing options.
https://dotsandloopspinball.com/

#200 6 days ago
Quoted from pinsanity:

soren
Could you clarify for those in Australia is there an option of purchasing direct from you?
Edit: NVM found your website in the list.
https://dotsandloopspinball.com/

wayne at mrpinball.com.au

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