Quoted from radium:If you install hardtop WITHOUT CLEAR, what do you do about your shooter lane?
who cares, you already ruined the game.
(Topic ID: 218168)
Linked Games
Bad Cats
Williams, 1989-
Black Knight
Williams, 1980
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Blackout
Williams, 1980
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Comet
Williams, 1985
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Eight Ball Deluxe
Bally, 1981
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Evel Knievel
Bally, 1977
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Fireball II
Bally, 1981
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Firepower
Williams, 1980
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Quoted from Blenderhead:Come play my Taxi and call it “ruined”
why would i want to pay a lousy plastic game?
2 months later
Quoted from mrm_4:If you treat a hardtop resto the same way as you would any other high end resto
LOL, hardtop and high end restro should never be compared.
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:I'll take a Hard Top any day over a modern Stern playfield or anything made by Mirco. I wouldn't be surprised if the future of playfields is some form of Hard Top rather than digital printing and clear coating. It would solve the problem of pooling and chipping. This would allow manufacturers to crank out pins with no curing time!
Lol, they made plastic fields, it was a failure. They don't do it anymore. It's more expensive. Bonding the ink to the base will fix the chipping, is not a clear failure, that's a substrate bonding issue, not a top coat issue.
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:Hell, my Deadpool came with an extra NIB playfield because the previous owner had a couple chips. I have it hanging on the wall. The original playfield has thicker clear coat. Ya, that was their solution to pooling and chipping. Rather than longer curing time, we got thinner clear coating! If I run my finger over the new PF, I can feel every ridge of the art print and inserts. My Hard Top is glass smooth! Also I'll never get raised or cupped inserts affecting ball action much.
Clears were thin. Then people got stupid and started demanding super shiny thick clear so manufactures gave them what they wanted. But paints and clears have actual spec'd thicknesses they are to be applied to. Make them too thick they fail.
Quoted from Robotworkshop:What do you mean plastic playfields were a failure? The Middle/main playfield on Elektra is covered in thick plastic and is fine. My issues are with the upper and lower playfields that were never protected. The upper on mine is really awful. There wasn’t a replacement playfield set available from anyone. It’s awesome there is now a hardtop available. The games I’ve run across that had hardtops were well done and played well.
They failed, I didn't say the fields themselves failed and were trashed. The business model failed. They were too expensive, harder to machine, and harder to repair if anything did get messed up.
Quoted from Robotworkshop:I can see that. But since they hold up well I think that a Hardtop can be a great solution to fix up a lot of games that otherwise would remain trashed. I'd take one over the thin overlays.
The original post I replied to said he wouldn't be surprised if plastic fields became the norm. That was a failed idea already for the reasons above, plus many think they do not play right. A hardtop is an acceptable last resort of a trashed field. The issue is too many people put one on, then post what the game looked like originally and it had minimal wear. That is just a waste.
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:And many do think they play right including me as my Gorgar plays fantastic with the Hard Top. And where are you getting this "failed idea" data from? Lets see your sources?
Did you even watch the video above?
Hmm they tried it and stopped, that would be a failure. if it was better and cheaper it would have been used more, not stopped, its a pretty darn simple dichotomy.
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:LOL!
So you're saying that playfield manufacturers abandoned tried and true manufacturing methods to appease some customer demands for thicker clear coat at their own peril resulting in this catastrophe of pooled and chipped playfields they had to replace?
Where is your evidence that this is actually what happened?
AFASK, it was the reduced clear coat curing times so they could pump out playfields fast enough to keep up with demand.
Or possibly changing the CC formula?
Or perhaps less than ideal conditions when applied?
I don't claim to know for sure! How do you??
diamond plate was thin and worked well. when posts were driven thought it, the clear would simply break. It was thin, it didn't peel up, it didn't spiderweb. Look at old WPC games you'll see the art and topcoat fully separated in a ring where the posts pressed into the wood. People started "restoring" games by adding stupidly thick clear in order to get super shiny, wet look fields. Doing this isn't an issue when its an individual, not many people will play that one machine, or handful of machines, so they don't get much wear. Stern started to run stupid thick clear in response to this demand, you can find accounts of it all over this site. Then you were looking at a high number of machines in high traffic locations with lots of eyes on them. Flaws turn up and get seen. This was done in direct response to people looking for wet look thick clear. Did stern know it would fail, doubtful. It's not really relevant though since the failure mode is the art to the substrate not the clear to the art. Thick clear acts like a rubbery plastic film you press it, it won't break easily-it will stretch. when well bound to the art the weakest link breaks, which was and still is the art to substrate bond. This is exactly why taking art away from the posts "fixed" the issue. You removed the weak point. Guess what though, get hold of a field to sacrifice and drive home posts into the art covered areas, you'll get the same movement with the art attached to the clear. You won't see it on the posts where the art was removed. They seems to have thinned the clear back worn a bit which is also making the clear less likely to stretch rather than crack. None of this new unknown in painting. Film thickness is important. No Matter how well you prep, if the application is done too thick for the medium it will fall. You think stern and JJP are pumping out games so fast that the clear can't sure if applied by the manufactures guidelines? Williams put out more in a day than those companies do in a week. There was no "waiting" to let things cure, and with the exception of insert ghosting on some titles no issues wit the clear separating. Holding parts in inventory is expensive. it takes space and is taxed considerably. That ghosting was the same issues as now, poor bonding to the substrate. in that case to plastic which is notoriously difficult to paint with normal paints.Ghosting generally did not occur on printed inserts as the screening inks did bond to plastic well and the clear bonded to those inks well.
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:How to you you know it wasn't because they didn't want to wait for the clear to cure longer? So they decided to put it on thinner?
Seems like a darn simple dichotomy.So you have no evidence to support your claims then?
Curing has zero to do with plastic playfields, which were a failure.
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:Hard Tops have not proven to be a failure as of yet and they have been tested in the field for a few years now. No dimples either.
As far as this product goes, it never existed before.
You stated you wouldn't be surprised if plastic fields became the norm. It was already tried, it failed. Both as a polybarb back-printed top slab over a substrate, very similar to a hardtop, but one that actually fits right since it was cut with the PF, to a full plastic field. Both were discontinued. Both were failures from the manufacturing aspect. It's not disputable that they stopped making them that way.
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:"to a full plastic field"
Apples to oranges. Not what a Hard Top is. I suggested plastic over wood like the Hard Top. My apologies, I should have been more clear.
That was done, it also failed. I mentioned it, you didn't pay attention. There is also a pic of one in this very thread.
Quoted from Screwloose:Haggis playfields are a combination of 9mm plywood & 4.5mm polycarb. That's what came in Celts & that is what Fathom Mermaid has installed. I love the playfield in my Celts & first impressions from the first Mermaid owner are very positive indeed.
P3 is plastic too. neither company is likely to be a major player in the long run. Orbitor 1 was plastic too from stern. gimmick game, but the tech was there, they didn't continue with it.
Quoted from koji:Those playfields are solid, I've owned an Elektra and a Interflip Dragon... the concept worked in practice.
I'm not clear what you mean with regard to failure from a mfg aspect? were there some particular stories from back then?
from the market standpoint, I would guess the cost is higher, and the players might not like the feel? Elektra was not a huge seller, but still just under 3k units, so they made a few.
wood is cheap, plastic slabs are not. Wood is easy to machine, plastics are not as easy. Wood much easier to repair if needed. people didn't like how they played. If they were better, either in manufacturing, costs, or play, they would still be being used.
Quoted from mrm_4:Tell that to my contractor building an addition
relatively and historically.
Quoted from radium:No, sheet plastic is easily milled. It seems like you are making things up to be a smart guy on the internet.
I specifically did not state plastic are hard to machine. What I said was "not as easy", plastics tend to wear bits faster and plastics can melt as the cutting edge fails and causes extra heat buildup.
Quoted from radium:Ok but it sounds like you just googled it and copy pasted this stuff.
nope
Quoted from vid1900:Most plastics used in pinball are easier and more consistent to machine than wood
Hell, you can laser cut acrylics, and the edge comes out shiny and finished
It's like some of you are still living in the last century...
you think the company cutting fields will just go get laser cutters when they have perfectly serviceable mechanical cutters in house? That's might happen when replacement is needed, not just for the hell of it.
Quoted from SteveNZ:In this position every insert is exactly correct. If I move it over the slightest amount I start to be off centre on the inserts and exposing wood. the roll over inserts on the right will need a littel cutting but the left ones are perfect. None of this is unexpected and I have seen previous comments about having to recut the shooter lane, just no details of how it was cut.
Fields were made by several companies. There is always variation. Even stuff made at any given company had variation. Not just in registration, supplied screen could be different (space shuttle fonts are a perfect example). Even how they were cut could be different, again space shuttle hotdogs vs spots in the center of the field. Hardtops won't be perfect to hardly any machine, they will be close to most though. This same issue will happen if outside edge is using original WMS info or basing the work on an old field. Now you need to figure out how to make it work best for your situation and figure out what is acceptable to you.
Quoted from wrd1972_PinDoc:I beg to differ. As I mentioned a few months ago in this topic, I purchased my hardtop WITHOUT the various holes pre-cut. I was able to align the inserts perfectly and then I routed out the holes for the lamps, switches etc.
Now all these holes are dead nuts perfect and the tell tale details of a hardtop cant be seen. My last hardtop is 100% indecernible from a new clearcoated playfied, and it was fairly easy to do.
This is the only way I will install hardtops going forward.
first off, it is not indistinguishable from a clear coated wood field unless the people looking are blind. Second, regardless of if you cut your own holes there is no guarantee that the art will match the existing field. All fields have variations, even ones made in the same factory. Using shuttle as an example again, not only are the center inserts and text different depending on what field you have there is also a variation that the art is literally longer on the field but about a 1/4 inch. It is literally impossible for a overlay of any kind to fit all these variations. an overlay is always a compromise at some point. Some are better than others.
Quoted from HydrogenHuman:What router do you use for it?
A trim router will work fine, but a full size router will work but be bulkier to deal with.
Quoted from Budwin:This is kind of a big deal on routing the holes pre-sticking vs. after sticking.
Seems like the best precision would be after sticking, but can shavings actually get under the HT?
Keith recommends routing the roll over holes after sticking. (according to the video I watched)
if its properly stuck down there should be no way to get anything under it. If stuff gets under it you had already messed up.
2 months later
Quoted from Hazzy121:Saving a Taxi. Getting close to the home stretch. Trying to get everything back on and just happy to have made it this far. Thank you to the Pinball community.
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Quoted from Mathazar:No need IMO....I just use two sawhorses at either end of the playfield and the underside parts just hang freely underneath. I've done it in a rotisserie as well, but frankly it's easier to apply the hardtop using sawhorses. At least for me.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
what a waste of relatively good playfields. If that's all you needed to sand then you didn't need a hardtop.
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:So reusing and improving a playfield to go back into a game is a waste. Got it.
No, killing a decent one is though. Got it?
Quoted from newovad:Hope this one is far enough gone for the purists. I’ve got Mylar clean up to do by the ramp exit of all places.
[quoted image]
At least this one is in bad shape. This is what they should be used for, not for still good fields.
4 weeks later
Quoted from Charles_Kline:I've been working on a Black Knight that was left with the playfield exposed in a warehouse for at least 20 years. The art was all flaking off, perfect candidate for a hard top.
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The art was all so loose and flaking that it all had to be removed for good adhesion of the HT.
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The ends of a few arrows were raised up, got those glued down before finishing sanding.
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After a few coats of clear I inked around all inserts with black and then applied a few more clear coats to seal that in.
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Now to let it cure for 30 days and get started on the upper playfield.
This is the type of game a hardtop makes better, the rest where people destroy good fields to put one on, not so much.
3 months later
Quoted from jcar302:I've been tiring kicking a hard top for my beater space shuttle for years.
My little guy loves the game, has no clue it's mostly bare wood with insert decals (not done by me). Plays just fine for him.
I read all your guys posts and i have my days where i want to do a hard top, but others where i think a playfield would be better for me.
Not because i'm some kind of purist, more so because a playfield swap is just mechanical work to me. It sounds like a hardtop is a little more detail orientated and the whole glue lifting, debris and dirt in the inserts, polish or don't polish, clear or don't clear makes me rethink the idea.
I know space shuttle playfields are out of stock, but i'll guess they will do another run at some point.
I'd be curious on how many hardtops come out great and how many are mediocre or fail.
A playfield is always the better option if the original can't be fixed.
2 weeks later
Quoted from interconnect:Would you guys hardtop this playfield?
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
JFC NO!
Quoted from kciaccio:Not 3x better. And more work.
you're right. It's not 3x better, it's infinitely better, more work but an infinitely better result.
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