So....what would you do? I've got a Black Knight - 100% functional, perfect backglass, decent cabinet (8/10) and a good looking playfield. While the playfield is good looking visually, it's developed cupping in the vast majority of the inserts and it's driving me crazy with the balls getting their trajectory altered each time it rolls over an insert, even at moderate speed. I've got lots of choices, but none are for the faint of heart:

1 - Pop out the inserts using a heat gun and pressure, heat and press flat, sand/polish, reinstall, and apply decals if required. Risks - could break, warp or crack the insert during the process. Replacement BK inserts are next to impossible to find.
2 - Apply a hard top. This idea is really attractive, but my existing playfield is pretty good looking cosmetically already and it would probably be sacrilegious to destroy an original playfield just to fix the inserts.
3 - Try and find a basket case sub-$400 doner BK with a trashed playfield, put a hardtop on it, and use that playfield in my machine. Then maybe I could find a buyer for my original playfield to help offset the cost of the doner BK and hardtop.
4 - Clearcoat the inserts and playfield so it's level but the labor cost on that would exceed a hardtop replacement.

#1 I would attempt myself. #2, #3 and #4 I would farm out to a local pinball repair shop as that's beyond my skill level.

Here's what my current playfield looks like. What would you do?

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Actually, I had not considered a protector. Reasonably priced, doesn't look to terribly difficult to install. I wonder how much it will actually reduce the cupping in my case. I'll definitely research this option...thank you for the link, @grbgemen.

Thanx everyone...did some reading on it (including this entire thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lexan-playfield-protector-install-and-review) and I'm convinced. I not only bought one just now for my BK but also my Eight Ball Deluxe. My EBD also has a very nice looking playfield - no insert cupping, but there are rough spots on both inlanes close to the flippers whereby if you trap the ball with the flipper and then release the flipper, the ball stays stuck in the inlane and you have to nudge the cabinet to get it to roll down. The playfield protector should get rid of that annoyance, too!

The company is on holiday break and won't resume shipping until 10JAN, so it may not be until February that I see them. The sale they're running is 20% off your order if ordered by 31DEC....for me, it came out to about $40 which is equal to the shipping cost, so "free" shipping.

Thanx again for the guidance!

My initial question involved whether or not I should go hardtop which I felt was appropriate for this thread. Now that I've decided to go playfield protector, I'm over in that thread now.

Yes...found many BK2K inserts but no BK.

I ordered one for my Black Knight over Christmas and they resume shipping on 10JAN. Here's hoping I get an extra strip with mine! Thanx.....

That's hilarious. Thanx for the chuckle.

I just took the plunge and ordered one for my project Mata Hari. How long does it usually take Outside Edge to ship? Not that I'm in too much of a hurry...I still need to tear down the playfield topside and there are only so many project hours available on the weekends.

As long as we're talking classic Sterns....my vote is for Flight 2000. Every one I've seen over the last several several years hasn't had anything close to a decent looking playfield. When I'm done with my Mata Hari, my next project will be a F2K if I can find one locally. And I'll bet the playfield will be trashed.

Hey all - I'm prepping my Mata Hari playfield and hopefully will be installing my hardtop this weekend or next. I have a few questions for those of you who have done this before:

1 - The entire topside is now torn down with everything removed, including the four pop bumpers. Each of the pop bumper areas has mylar - I removed one easily enough by pulling it up with my fingers but it left a tacky residue. What's the best way to remove the mylar? Does the tacky residue have to be remedied before laying down the hardtop and, if so, how is that done?

2 - Some of the recommendations I've read involve spraying "clear" on the inserts after sanding them down and on the bare wood areas as well that surround the playfield, including the shooter lane (and then waiting at least 72hrs before laying down the hardtop). What do you guys do, and where does one get "spray clear"? Something easily enough picked up at Home Depot or Lowes? What do I look for?

3 - I should sand down only the "rough" areas, inserts, and anywhere there are protrusions, correct? Never done this before....what grit sandpaper should I use? 200, then 500, then 1000? When the area in question is smooth, I'm done?

Thanx!
Kris

Great link, thank you @eagle18. Vid's guides, as usual, are extremely detailed and informative and indeed it answered a lot of my questions (and provided tips I didn't even think about). In his installation, however, he sanded off ALL artwork and cleared his entire playfield with 2PAC before applying the hardtop. I didn't think you had to go that far with hardtop installations.

I'm just a basic hobbyist...I'm not set up or experienced enough to do a home 2PAC job with compressed air, chemical mask, bunny suit, paint booth, etc. For the rest of you guys who have installed hardtops...what did you do to clear the inserts, shooter lane, and saucers? Rattle can clear? What brand?

Question on hardtop hole alignment. I'm doing an alignment test fit with Mata Hari - inserts line up great as do most holes. There are a few holes, however, that are way off. Looking for guidance on how to rectify.

Best example would be the holes for apron clip brackets. See the close up picture below where I have the hardtop slightly lifted so you can see the playfield underneath. On the hardtop, the holes for screws are BELOW the artwork line. On the playfield itself, the holes for them are ABOVE the artwork line.

I'm assuming I need to drill holes thru the hardtop to match the existing holes in the playfield, correct? Any advice on how to determine exactly where on the hardtop to drill the holes since the original holes on the playfield cannot be seen thru the hardtop?

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TheCapn / Spraynard - thanx for the input....that's pretty much what I thought. My challenge with those apron screw holes is that they do not go all the way thru the playfield which means I cannot drill up thru the bottom of the playfield after the hardtop is installed. I guess I'm going to have to rely on measurements I make for the existing hardtop holes to approximate the location of the playfield holes from topside after the hardtop is installed? I was hoping there was a method other folks used when they encountered this situation instead of having to rely on measuring and doing a blind drill. Or I could try using the holes already in the hardtop...the apron itself would cover any mistakes provided it's still aligned on the playfield ok.

In the photo below, the purple dots represent an approximation for where the holes are drilled in the playfield.

For the other holes close but not perfect - I've got a Dremel tool but only cutting disks. What bits/attachments would you recommend to use for opening up existing hardtop holes?

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Ya, there's the bracket for the flipper assembly.

What kind of Dremel tool bit do I need to use to widen out the hardtop screw holes that don't line up with the playfield holes? All I have are cutting discs for my Dremel so I need to buy an accessory kit, but I'm not sure what to look for. What do you guys use?

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So I think this might be the weekend I finally get the Mata Hari hardtop installed. It's been almost a week since I cleared the inserts and today I took off the masking. One thing that hadn't occurred to me.....the areas that got cleared now have this ever-so-slight ridge between its surface and the uncleared surface that was masked off (see picture). Does this need to be sanded down prior to putting on the hardtop? If so, what grit sandpaper and how much do I take off?

The ridge is so slight, I'm wondering if it would even matter. Pay no attention to the black outline around the insert - that was an experiment gone bad, and with the test fit of the hardtop the inserts look perfect.

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I tried not to over think this and I did do the whole playfield at first. This is my first experience with clear (rattle can). The first attempt was the whole playfield and that didn't turn out well - something was breaking up the chemical bond in so many areas (except around the inserts) and I was left with cracking, peeling, and the like. I was spraying at 72F and had the can well shook/mixed, and the first coat was very, very thin so I figured it was something on the playfield causing this. I sanded all that off and started over and tried again in a couple test spots after degreasing, rubbing with naphtha, and trying really hard to get whatever wax or silicone or whatever is in this playfield out so that it could be cleared properly (at least as properly as I can with a rattle can). The test spots came out just like the first time - bad. Sanded that clear attempt off in a few minutes since it was just a small test area, then kept in mind the instructions that came with the hardtop to either wet sand the inserts or clear them to make them shiny. It took about 10 minutes to mask off the non-insert areas that kept failing and so I cleared just the inserts. No cracking/peeling and it came out ok.

And now here I am with my ridge question. It's very slight....does that need to get sanded down or would be ok to lay the hardtop down as-is?

Finally hit the re-assembly phase of my Mata Hari install. Got the frame, apron area, and rebuilt pop bumpers back in so far this week along with new flipper assemblies. Targeting having this playable over the weekend after rebuilding the slings and drop targets and finishing off the new posts and plastics.

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Can someone tell me what the purpose of the nails are that are in the slingshot areas of some early Bally's (like the Mata Hari I put a hardtop in)? Is it just for support of the sling plastic piece or is there some sort of other functionality that it's suppose to provide? The hardtop holes don't align with where the nails were on the playfield originally. I'm thinking of just not putting the nails back in.

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I'd be in for EBD.....

Man oh man, I hope EBD is one of the first out the chute and shows up this summer. I'm in for three of them....my keeper EBD, a project EBD I'm going to flip, and an EBD for a buddy of mine.

I emailed Bruce last weekend asking about the possibility of EBD in 2019. This is the reply I got:

"Yes, it is going to be started soon. No time line given... as we are always behind. Think next 12 months... "

It's been almost 3 months since my hardtop install on Mata Hari...no issues yet, knock on wood. How did you prep your inserts before laying down the hardtop? I sanded 600-800-1000 then put on a couple of thin rattle can coats of Krylon Crystal Clear Gloss.

Doing a topside teardown for a hardtop is infinitely easier and quicker vs. moving everything from the old playfield to the new one.

Spread out over about 8 weeks (I work 50+ hours a week, have family/kids, and I have other weekend hobbies), I probably put about 12-18 hours into my Mata Hari hardtop install:

- Topside tear down
- Repair top center kickout saucer with wood epoxy putty
- Sand inserts, shooter lane, apron, and top arch
- Rattle can poly spray shooter lane, apron, and top arch
- Rattle can clear spray inserts after sanding 600-800-1000
- Lay down hardtop (all of 10 minutes for this step)
- Fix/adjust mis-aligned hardtop holes with playfield holes
- Re-assemble topside with new posts, plastics, pop bumper hardware, targets, and rubbers from Marco's (+ flipper rebuild)
- Play. I must have 200 games on it so far and I'm totally pleased with the speed, action, and flow of this classic pin

Way easier and a quarter of the cost of doing a playfield swap if I could even find a worthy replacement playfield.

Those are excellent points, @perryd, and I had not considered those with my comments on my own experience with Mata Hari. Rollovers and ramps indeed ratchet up the complexity level several degrees and MH by comparison is a rather simple layout. The only modifications I had to make as a result of the hardtop height was to raise the two banks of 4 drop targets by .8mm. That way the ball would not get stuck sitting on top of downed targets if it happened to roll slowly by at an angle.

After ~400 games so far, my MH hardtop still looks and plays like brand new. I do not wax it. I give it a cursory wipe down with a clean, dry cloth about every 50 games. I'll probably do a full topside tear-down clean at the one-year mark and every year there-after.

Post #791: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/official-hardtops-thread/page/16#post-5040424

You'll likely have to wait for Outside Edge to come back online and start producing them again. At $300 a pop, I doubt many folks stockpile them for future projects and have extra laying around to sell. At that price point, I usually wait till I'm ready to start the work and then purchase.

Those guys are a commercial printing company and do the hardtop thing on the side. I read somewhere on their site that they're using their $1.5M printing press for their hardtops and that they're shutting down while they "retool their production". That retooling is likely being driven by their day business and it, of course, affects their hardtop side business. Here's hoping the retooling results in increased capacity that shortens the time between taking hardtop orders and shipping once production resumes!

I used an orbital sander to prep for my Mata Hari hardtop. Went 80-120-240-800 on the playfield and up to 1200 on the inserts. I did not remove all artwork - only the artwork on the inserts and immediately surrounding the inserts. I made sure none of the inserts were raised and didn't care about the few that were cupped knowing the hardtop would hide that. I used rattle can clear on the inserts and kickout hole in the top center of the playfield. I used polyurethane on the shooter lane, apron, upper archway. I'm very, very pleased with how it turned out.

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The sawdust capture bag on my orbital sander does a decent job of keeping most of the stuff from flying around, but after I finished I spent 15-20 minutes using my air compressor all over the underside to totally clean out the nooks and crannies.

Thanx in advance from me too for EBD!! Here's hoping it's the early part of December, in time to get it in my hands for a nice project over my Christmas break.

Indeed, ink is bad news, and I know this from experience. Here's a picture of what was a solid ink traces around the inserts after applying clear (and cleaning up the ink bleed off the inserts themselves). Fortunately, the MH insert lineup on my playfield was perfect....no wood showing through, and I didn't have to go thru the ink/clear/smear/clean-up process a few times before giving up on that!

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I used that poly on the shooter lane, apron, and upper arch area of my PF before installing a hardtop and was very pleased at the results. It did darken yellow a bit but I was actually going for that effect since after sanding down those areas to get rid of ground in dirt, wear, and ball tracks, the sanding left the wood a much lighter-than-original color. I would not use it on playfield paint/graphics.

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I've had a playfield protector in my EBD for nearly a year now - it "hides" rough spots in both inlanes that would hold the ball captive after trapping it with the flipper and letting go of the flipper, and it also stops the awkward directions the ball takes when running over cupped inserts. I've been very pleased with the performance! Still....looking very much forward to the EBD hardtop next month to put in the machine....if anyone wants an EBD playfield protector cheap, PM me in January.

Nafla = Naphtha: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Klean-Strip-Naphtha-Solvent-1-qt-Case-Of-6/189112618

You can also get it at Home Depot. There are many variations under many different names - VM&P Naphtha is the preferred among pinheads.

I have a feeling 2020 is going to be a booming business year for you guys with your increased capacity and new titles coming out! Once I'm done with my current project, I should be placing an order for 3 more hardtops (around February) myself.

What is it so far....three new titles this month alone? Any chance Outside Edge can keep up with that pace this year?

If you don't want to build your own, this is a very well made and affordable one built on demand by a fellow pinsider:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gauging-interest-in-all-metal-pf-rotisseries-for-18000-shipped

Just pulled the triggered and ordered EBD. I had originally planned to get an Eight Ball Deluxe hardtop in January but other priorities got in the way. Finding myself with more time on my hands than usual thanx to our stay-at-home order, I've got the bandwidth now to work on it. I put a hardtop in my Mata Hari last year and I absolutely love it. Can't wait to "finish" my EBD....I refurb'd and painted the cabinet last year (external only with stencils). Getting a nice, shiny new playfield in it will also likely motivate me to recondition the interior of the cabinet as well. Since I'll be cleaning and tumbling topside metal parts after teardown, I might as well do the tilt board, coin door, receiver mechanism, etc. along the way.

How's Outside Edge doing shipping-wise during COVID-19? Hoping to have it mid-May.....

Wow...ordered on April 20 and it arrived today (April 27)! EBD hardtop install is next in my queue after I finish the shop job on a STTNG that I picked up a couple of months ago....about 3 more weeks.

Thanx, Outside Edge!!

I ordered EBD the evening of April 20 and it arrived at my door on April 27.

Finally finished my STTNG project (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-owners-club/page/86#post-5637728) and have moved on to installing the EBD hardtop that came in a few weeks ago. My EBD was a decent player pin and looked great as long as you didn't look too closely at the playfield. The major problems with it are that many inserts are cupped causing the ball to go in unexpected directions and both inlanes have rough spots at the edge of the flippers....if the ball is going slowly enough (or you hold the ball to make a shot), the ball stays stuck in that spot even with the flippers down. Shaking the ball free often results in a tilt. I've been using a playfield protector for about year to get rid of those issues but thankfully the EBD hardtop is now available!

I have the playfield about 90% torn down...hoping to be sanding by next weekend. Just need to pull out the pop bumpers, drop target assemblies, and sling assemblies. I've run into a couple of issues, looking for guidance - my EBD is the 1984 "Classic" version if it matters:

1 - I'm having trouble getting all of the mylar off the playfield (using freeze spray). There's a ton of it. When I installed a hardtop on my Mata Hari, I didn't run into this....there were only a few pieces of mylar near the slings and pop bumpers and it came up easily. On the EBD, not so much. Can I just sand this stuff off?

2 - The three wood rails that frame the outer playfield are each held in by one or two screws and a couple dozen loooong staples. I ran into this on my Mata Hari as well and while the staples were challenging to remove, I got them out and used screws to put the rails back as Bally had the foresight to pre-drill recessed holes for doing just that. On this 1984 Bally/Midway EBD, there are no pre-drilled recessed holes except for the 1 or 2 per rail that were done at the factory. EBD owners - what did you guys do about the factory staples? Remove them and reuse? Remove them and drill new holes for screws? Remove them and put in new staples (I don't have a staple gun that can do those type of staples)?

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Several little reasons, but the two main ones were:

1 - several cupped inserts. I don't like to mess with 2PAC to fill and I haven't had very much success in using spray can clear to fix the same on other projects. My Mata Hari had more cupped inserts than this EBD (and a few were worse) and the hardtop I put on it took care of that.

2 - a previous owner did a poor repaint job in a several areas but while most were just visually displeasing, there are two that cause actual physical trouble with ball play. In each inlane by the flipper hole, the repaint effort is rough enough that a ball will get stuck there if rolling slowly enough or you release the flipper after trapping/holding the ball. Takes a serious nudge to dislodge, often resulting in a tilt (and the tilt is not set to be super-sensitive). I tried lightly sanding those areas to smooth it out but the paint starts to come off. I've got no painting skills....I can barely repaint a cabinet with a stencil, let alone try to repaint delicate artwork like this that would need to cleared/protected afterwords.

Playing with a playfield protector addresses the above pretty well....I put one in last year. But after experiencing how well my Mata Hari plays and looks after putting on a hardtop, I want the same for my EBD.

Any advice on the mylar removal? Can I sand the rest off while taking the playfield to bare wood or am I doomed to hours and hours of removing it tiny bits at a time?

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I had a couple different vendors Freeze Spray on my bench but neither helped in removing the mylar. But my heat gun on low setting...magic. Coming right up. I'll finish that this afternoon and then remove the adhesive residue...pretty sure I've got some Goo Gone in the garage. Thanx for the assist, guys.

Getting pretty close to having my EBD playfield tear down completed to get ready for sanding and installing a new hardtop. I'm stuck on the star rollover. Is there a recommended process for removing the housing/insert? I tried tapping it up from under the playfield but it's not budging. I don't care if it breaks or cracks as I have a new housing and a new star to install after the hardtop goes on, but I was wondering if there was an easy way to pop this out vs. shattering it with brute force and then cleaning up any remaining plastic bits stuck to the sides of the hole.

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Thanx, Apinjunkie - I'll give that a go later this afternoon!

Worked great! Got a tad too warm to start and a tiny part of the plastic melted, but like I said I'm putting in a new housing anyway. Popped right out! On to Goo Gone to get the rest of the mylar residue up and I may be able to start sanding this weekend.

I started my EBD hardtop install this weekend if anyone wants to follow along:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hardtop-install-and-restoration-for-eight-ball-deluxe

My EBD playfield is all prepped and I'm doing an alignment test.....will probably install tomorrow. Question: my hardtop has two circular cutouts in the upper right and lower left portions of the playfield, but my playfield doesn't have these cutouts. What are they for?

My EBD is the 1984 Classic version if that makes a difference. All the inserts line up nicely and for the most part, the holes line up as well. Will have to make a dozen or so trimming adjustments and put in holes were one or two are missing. Gotta love the manufacturing variances of 1980's pinball machines!

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Cool- I wonder why they dropped that extra hole and GI light from the upper right in later playfield runs? I would think that plastic would actually look better with the extra light! FWIW, that same cut out in the upper right is present on my Mata Hari and my Black Jack, and both have a extra GI run there.

Question on the Eight Ball Deluxe hardtop (looks great, BTW....I just laid mine down this afternoon). Is there supposed to be adhesive under the small, narrow clear strip that goes to the outside of the shooter lane? I seem to recall there was on the Mata Hari hardtop I installed last year but there doesn't appear to be on the Eight Ball Deluxe. It'll get secured by the rail set when those are screwed in anyway, just curious.

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FWIW, I've done two hardtops now (Mata Hari and Eight Ball Deluxe) and neither had ANY alignment issues with inserts resulting in bare wood showing. I did put black outlines around some inserts on the first Mata Hari I did and ran into all sorts of bleeding issues...I'm sure it was my inexperience and a lot of people have had success with it, but in the end I sanded all that off, didn't do the outlines, and the inserts still lined up and came out perfect. Same for EBD...I didn't even attempt at putting down black outlines on that one (just did it yesterday!).

I had other alignment issues with holes that didn't line up with the playfield (in fact a lot are way off and in some cases missing altogether) but that's expected and fairly easily correctable provided you can keep your heart rate down while taking a Dremel to your brand new $300 hardtop.

Putting the finishing touches on playfield reassembly after installing an EBD hardtop - moving on to cabinet refresh and coin door rebuild next week.

Does anyone know what these holes in the hardtop are for?? I don't have corresponding holes in my playfield, and they're right in the ball path of both in-lanes.

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Eight Ball Deluxe hardtop owners....do you have these two holes in your hardtop and playfield? These holes are not in my playfield, wondering if this is a hardtop mistake or if my playfield (1984 "Classic" edition) is different than the 1981 original that was used to make the prototype hardtop.

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That was a good idea to check the hardtop bag to see if the chads popped out in there, but unfortunately I came up empty. I do plan on filling in those spots with something dark at some point, but I'm hoping to hear from Outside Edge first before I make any mods there. On the plus side, it's not visible from a playing position....only comes into view if you lean forward.

Very nice job on the videos - great production value as well as content! I've done two hardtop installs so far and I picked up a few tips from your videos that I'll be using on my third install later this summer.

For me, I also have to consider the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). She could care less what a pin looks like if I have it in the garage, but if I want to bring a pin into our family rec room / home theater room (where I currently have 7), the cab can't look like a beater. Nicks or scratches here and there are fine, but legs/coin doors can't be rusty, paint/decals can't be peeling or significantly fading, and no big cab holes/gouges or areas of de-lamination.

It's a small price to pay for her actually allowing me to grow my hobby and bring pins into the house. Plus, it forces me to expand my skill set into areas where I previously had little to no experience (working with wood and painting/stenciling).

Looks really nice! I picked up a Black Knight hardtop a few weeks ago for a fall/winter project. What kind of issues, if any, did you have with getting the ramps level with the playfield after the hardtop went in? Did you have to make any adjustments like in Cary Hardy's BK hardtop install video?

What kind of paint did you use? I did a Mata Hari hardtop last year - all inserts lined up great so I didn't need to paint any outlines (did need to widen out several holes with a Dremel). I'm doing an Eight Ball Deluxe hard top now - after taking off all artwork down to bare wood and polishing the inserts (I went to 2000), I put on a few light coats of rattle can clear last weekend so it should be ok by now. My test alignment this morning shows all inserts lining up great except for one that's a little off (the Eight Ball). Was going to paint just that one edge area around the 8-ball tonight using Liquitex Black Gesso (see picture), then decide if I'm going to put down the hardtop tomorrow or add a little clear over that really small area of new paint and wait to lay down the hardtop next weekend.

I used that Liquitex Black Gesso to repaint the top saucer of my Mata Hari black and that's held up well but it's not under the hardtop for me to gauge how that paint will behave under the EBD hardtop. So what did you use to paint your insert outlines? Thanx....

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I've had to re-do one. It's not pretty.

I've experienced both:

Mata Hari - hardtop installed March 2019. Original artwork sanded off. No clear coat applied before hardtop install. 18 months and several hundred games later, still looks and plays like new.

Eight Ball Deluxe (Attempt 1) - hardtop installed May 2020. Original artwork sanded off. No clear coat applied before hardtop install. After 2 to 3 weeks, hardtop developed 4 significant areas of "lifting" (bubbles) ranging in size from a square inch to several square inches.

Eight Ball Deluxe (Attempt 2) - first hardtop removed (that was an adventure!) and 2nd one installed in early August 2020. Playfield re-sanded after ink and adhesive residue removed. Three light coats of rattle can Clear (Rustoleum) applied with a week of outgassing allowed between the last coat of clear and the hardtop installation. So far, after nearly 4 weeks and 100+ games, no issues.

Outside Edge was outstanding with their prompt help, support and recommendations - they took care of me and my situation, and they still have a happy customer.

While it was huge pain to re-do the hardtop, it did give me the opportunity to do some stuff I had thought about doing (but did not) the first go around:
- Totally disassemble the three pop bumpers, ultrasonic clean and tumble the individual metal parts, and reassemble with new springs and coil sleeves
- Put in Molex connectors for all of the coils allowing for quicker reinstall and easier future maintenance for when assemblies need to be removed

In my instance with Eight Ball Deluxe, lifting started about 2 weeks after install.

In my instance with Eight Ball Deluxe, the lifting was from sanded wood (without clearing before putting down the hardtop). I chose to remove all of the artwork to repair rough areas on the playfield. I did the same process on Mata Hari a year ago with no issues, but will certainly be applying a few layers of clear after sanding on all my future hardtop installs.

I'm using LEDs for inserts and incandescents for GI and the backbox.

Hopefully you found this: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gauging-interest-in-all-metal-pf-rotisseries-for-18000-shipped

Great rotisserie - solid as a rock and looks great too if you go for the powder coated option.

I've had great success adjusting hardtop holes with a dremel. Very precise with a steady hand and a multitude of inexpensive bits to choose.

+1

Indeed, that's a very cool video. Nicely produced!

Guidance from Outside Edge is "several days" for outgassing. I waited a week to be sure - a few light coats of clear on a Sunday and put on the hardtop the following Saturday.

In addition to the data sheet mrm_4 provided above, I'd recommend sending a PM to pinsider outsidedge. He/they make the hardtop and I'm sure you can get the proper skinny from him.

FWIW - My MH hardtop sat on my shelf for 6 months before I installed it. 18 months and hundreds of plays later, still like new.

Based on my experience, I would say no, there's no reason to add that complexity to an install and actually increase the potential for causing cosmetic damage to the hardtop. The mention of screwing in posts too tight causing hardtop lifts was, IMO, just another idea to explain the rash of hardtop failures last year on EBD and other titles. Those instances of hardtop failures were eventually root caused down to a manufacturing issue with the adhesive (OE's ink supplier changed the formula without consulting OE). It took several months to get to the bottom of those failures, but it has been corrected.

I can't comment on the color mismatches for your title, but rollover holes are *not* opened up (by design). You must open them up yourself....it's actually fairly easy to do with a Dremel and you should do after the hardtop is laid down and installed on the playfield.

From the Hardtop FAQ (http://www.outsideedgeproducts.com/hardtop-faq.html):

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Of course there are lighting differences, but KnockerPTSD 's HS certainly looks lighter in the grays, and even the blue, vs. KSUWildcatFan 's. Worth reaching out to OE to at least ask if maybe there was a run issue on that particular HS.

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That would be a fun one to install.....10 rollovers!

I just picked up a project Meteor. Meteor please please please please!!

I've got no data to back this up, but I do recall reading somewhere that the adhesive backing on the hardtop is good for about a year sitting on the shelf before installation. After that, it starts to diminish.

I don't see it so much as duplicating each other's efforts. They are different products catering to differing markets and levels of refurbishment:

Hardtop: $300
Sometimes requires as little as partial top level tear down only, sometimes a full topside tear down, could be installed in as little as a weekend if motivated. Caters to the casual pinhead looking to spruce up his machine as quickly and economically as possible.

Repro Playfield: $800-$1000
Requires total teardown and rebuild of both topside and bottom side taking anywhere from a few weeks to a few months depending on the knowledge and skills of the pinhead doing the work. May require additional time for clear curing, or even a re-clear if not satisfied with the factory finish, adding more time and requiring more skills to do the job. Caters to the top level pinheads and purists wanting to fully restore a machine.

In my experience I've found that most folks/purists who do playfield swaps wouldn't entertain doing a hardtop even if a hardtop is available for a title where there is no repro playfield being made. And vice versa - the economically challenged or those who lack the skills or time tend to stick to hardtops and wouldn't attempt a repro playfield swap even if that was the only thing available for their title.

The point being....both CPR and Outside Edge are interested in making sales. Even in cases with duplicate titles, they're each catering to their respective markets and those respective markets rarely intersect.

I've done three hardtops myself (two EBD and one MH) with a BK in the queue. The MH was my first - I left the DT banks and slingshot mechs in so I did have some stuff poking thru the top as I laid down the hardtop but I see your point. OK - full topside tear down needed. I didn't clear anything...just sanded off the insert artwork and then wet sanded the inserts to get them nice, smooth, and shiny.

When I did the two EBD's, I did remove some mechs for cleaning in addition to everything topside. I also did put a light coat of rattlecan clean on them instead of wet sanding the inserts before putting the hardtop tops down. Either method works IMO - not sure yet which one I'll use for the upcoming Black Knight.

Just finished my first playfield swap to a CPR Meteor and working on fixing the cabinet now before a re-stenciling. If Outside Edge offered a Meteor hardtop, I would've taken that in a second over a CPR playfield. And the only reason I got the CPR playfield was that a local guy was selling it so cheap I couldn't resist it (never used but had the "missing METEOR DT score values" blemish/omission). I got the swap done, but it's too nerve-wracking for me to be drilling dozens and dozens of holes in a $900 playfield, fearing I'm going to ruin it at any moment. I did make a bunch of mistakes but in the end was able to recover. Not worth the high blood pressure, tho....give me a hardtop any day!

A fellow pinsider hooked me up with the waterslide for the scores. I applied it and using a small brush, covered it up with some automotive touchup clear to feather in the edges (I've used this same stuff to protect saucers and kickouts I've repainted and it's held up great so I'm pretty confident in the durability). I know some people would've re-cleared the whole playfield after adding the scores waterslide but this is good enough for me!

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These older playfields have lots of variances to take into consideration, especially holes for posts, rails, etc. It's expected to have to trim, widen holes, or even drill new (missing) holes in the hardtop. I've done 4 so far, but while I haven't had to make any shooter lane adjustments in any of them it doesn't surprise me too much.

The most important thing: Line up the insert artwork dead-nuts so they're all perfect and clamp the hardtop down. From there, widen or add needed holes in the hardtop with a dremel, file, or xacto and trim as necessary.

Product line is expanding in 2022.....

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Tons of folks (including myself) have used orbital sanders to strip a playfield to bare wood in preparation for a hardtop. No issues a long as you continuously apply even pressure and avoid creating dips.

Definitely true for early SS cabinets, probably true (seems logical) for the same playfields. Use a good rated mask (and protective eyewear) when sanding and attach a shop vac to your orbital sander and you'll be fine. Best to do it outdoors if you can so that any loose, escaped lead laden particles don't perch on your cars, boxes, and whatever other surfaces you have in your garage or workshop.

Don't forget - removing artwork from the playfield is an OPTIONIAL prep prior to putting down the hardtop. I've done it a couple of times just because of my anal retentive nature, but all you have to do is sand off the artwork from your inserts and buff out/shine-up those inserts before you lay down the hardtop (wet sand and/or dry sand + some clear, rattle can ok). One of the reasons I sanded the complete playfield artwork off is that particular playfield surface had some really rough spots (gouges / divots) and I used wood filler to ensure there were no cavities between the playfield surface and the underside of the hardtop.

Ha! That reminds me of a couple of years ago when I picked up two, non-working project Mata Hari's to build "one good one". Wound up hard topping and restoring one (which I still have) and getting the other one working well enough to sell it as a player's machine to fund the restoration of the other!

Man, I love this hobby....

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When I prep playfields for hardtops, I use 220 with an orbital sander (and light pressure) to get the artwork off. Then follow up with block sanding at 400/600 to make sure the playfield is as level as possible.

The hardtop is rigid enough that if there are valleys in the playfield surface as a result of too-aggressive sanding that it would not be noticed. However, I wouldn't want any of those voids to be too big, so I'd recommend flattening them out as much as possible.

All of this is really overkill, anyway....you don't need to remove any artwork or do massive sanding. Just make sure your inserts are free of artwork and focus on those....eliminate the potential for jacking up your playfield surface with aggressive sanding.

2PAC is overkill too, IMO. I've done it with no clear and focusing on wet sanding only inserts (220/600/800/1200), I've done it laying down rattle can clear to "seal" the surface before putting down the hardtop, and I see no difference (and it's going on a couple of years for a few of my hardtop installs).

Exactly how I do it, too.

In my conversations with OE, they recommended clear coating as a measure to "seal" the playfield surface in an effort to contain any contaminants that could possibly interfere with the hardtop's bonding agent(s). I should note that this recommendation came about a year or so ago when OE was experiencing MANY hardtop failures in the field where customers experienced bubbling and lifting within days of installing the hardtop. I was one of those customers.

In the end, those hardtop failures, including mine (x2), were attributed to the OE printer vendor changing formulas for their adhesive WITHOUT notifying OE. It took upwards of 10 months for Bruce to nail down that root cause, and all during that time of the field failures he was pointing towards inadequate prep work on the playfield, prior to laying down the hardtop, as the cause for the bubbling and lifting. Bruce is stand-up guy....while it was a PITA on my side to rip off two hardtop and replace with new ones (with the CORRECT adhesive formula), he replaced them for free for me even before he got to the ultimate root cause of his printer vendor really screwing him.

So....like KSUWildcatFan said, do what makes you happy / feel safe. IMO, clearcoating is overkill. I did it once for one one hardtop (rattle can clear), but all the others I've done I just sanded away the artwork to get things nice and level and rid the playfield surface of years of wax and grime. And then wet sand the inserts to a nice polish.

You're not an outlier, or at the very least we can be a group of outliers. Did a Mata Hari hardtop nearly 3 years ago, no clear, almost daily use since then, and it still looks and plays like new. Ditto for my EBD I did a couple years ago and a BK I did for a buddy last year.

Pop Bumper Discs: https://www.cometpinball.com/products/pop-bumper-discs

It's possible to remove a hardtop, but it is NOT FUN AT ALL. If ya'll remember a couple years ago OE had that infamous run of hardtops with the bad batch of adhesive (their print vendor changed an ingredient in OE's adhesive formula without notifying OE). The result was many customers experienced bubbling, lifting, and damaged artwork on their hardtops within days of installation. I was one of those customers - mine was Eight Ball Deluxe. OE did us right by replacing the hardtop with a free one, but wow was it labor intensive to get the old one off. Setting aside the time and effort to pull out the playfield and teardown the topside again, it took me about 15 hours (across multiple days) to get every bit of glue remnants off of the playfield and ready for a new hardtop.

The bad hardtop itself came off ok with some muscle. The glue and artwork it left behind....yikes. 15 hours of GooGone and scraper work. And it's not like all of the pieces came off in big chunks....there were tons and tons of little pieces to get off (my hands hurt for days). But, in the end, the replacement hardtop with the corrected adhesive formula worked great and still looks/plays like new 100's of games later.

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That looks beautiful - quite jealous! I'm getting re-acquainted with a High Speed at my local bowling center after not playing it for 20+ years. Now I want one! Nice touch with the red powder coated ball habitrails!

That depends. The beauty of the hardtop, beside the looks, cost, ease of installation, and playability is that the PET-G plastic that it's made of is rigid enough that it can "bridge" small dips in the playfield, most notably cupped inserts, and make the playfield perfectly flat. Where I can see "lumps" in the playfield occurring:

- Someone got a little over-enthusiastic with the orbital sander when removing artwork from the inserts and, without applying the same enthusiasm to the rest of the playfield, created dips large enough that the hardtop could not overcome them and the hardtop "lifted" due to lack of adhesive mass.

- The hardtop installed was from that batch about 18 months ago that had a defect in the adhesive/ink formula. This affected dozens of shipped hardtops, many of which got installed before the problem was caught and corrected (I know, I was one of those people). The most affected titles in this bad batch were EBD and BK.

- Installer did not remove ALL protruding or proud objects from the playfield before installing. Most common offenders in this category are the little wood "lips" that get created in the playfield from screws and posts overly tightened over 35+ years.

Just to add about dealing with star rollovers with hardtops....it's right in the installation instructions and FAQ on Outside Edge's website:
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Rollovers will need to be popped out, and have some small manual work done on the Hardtop hole after installation. You will then use a 2-part epoxy to glue them back in.
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OE also has this video on their website showing how to enlarge the star rollover hole on the hardtop, after installation, and prior to putting in a new star rollover:

http://www.outsideedgeproducts.com/uploads/b/890360-583207973742842823/keith_hardtop_wizard_rollover_890.mp4