Bad Cats
Williams, 1989
Black Knight
Williams, 1980
Blackout
Williams, 1980
Comet
Williams, 1985
Eight Ball Deluxe
Bally, 1981
Evel Knievel
Bally, 1977
Fireball II
Bally, 1981
Firepower
Williams, 1980You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider clytor.
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Quoted from yaksplat:What's the best way to readjust the shooter lane? I have to shift this hardtop way to the right on this Comet. The last comet needed to be shifted about 1/8" to the left.
Attach then cut? Cut ahead? This isn't the easiest material to cut nicely. Any overflow on the edges and I usually use a block plane.
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Quoted from radium:A small router with a template bit will do it quick and easy. Just clamp a straight edge along the line you want to cut.
Edit: sorry I just saw the first few words where you said it’s already down
I ended up using a mixture of files, shears and a dremel. I took the rails and some other stuff around the lane. I was able to get decent access to right side. I came out ok. The left side came out so so. I could only lift it up a little bit.
I've already posted this in a few groups but I thought this might be a good place to share it too.
Here is a look at my Blackout playfield restore with the Hardtop.
Quoted from dzorbas:Last time I checked, I'm not playing the cab. If it's in okay shape and I hardtop and bulletproof the game and it plays amazing, I'm happy. I have a row of 4 pins side by side right now and you can barely see the cabs. The only one I want to move out of there is my Iron Maiden because the side art is really cool.
Agreed. Some of those early SS Williams games have pretty uninspiring cabinet art anyway. Blackout and Firepower would be two. I thought about ordering stencils and doing my Blackout. I feel like I'd be more inclined to order stencils for some other space themed game with better cabinet art if I were going down that path.
Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:I'm assuming because they're already high polished. If he wants to clear them they need to be roughed up some to accept the clear. I don't think you want to clear over polished inserts.
Ah. Yeah, I did minimal clear coating on my Blackout. I only did the exposed areas with no art. I also did all new inserts that I had step sanded and polished.
Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:I love the drop mod on this. Seems silly NOT to do it.
People talk about the drops slowing down the gameplay. The drops coupled with a Hardtop play plenty fast to me.
Quoted from vid1900:One could put in some modular connectors, and easily switch between the two targets bank styles
That would be cool
Already done! Although, I actually did this for easy serviceability. These are not the most reliable drop banks in the world.
62960538092__756C81F4-F18C-4F40-8960-3972456C6B83 (resized).jpgQuoted from Fn4me:I've still got mine in the queue, though I did get the drop target banks, thanks for that. Did you have to do much fitting for the drop targets with the hardtop?
Hey man, happy to help! I opted out on the standup target behind the drops, so no additional alteration was need on the wood or Hardtop.
Quoted from HHaase:I recognize those drop target boards. (They're actually sized for .156 headers too, FYI).
-Hans
Oh wow. I'll keep that in mind for the future!
Quoted from shimmydisc:Small question before I install a Blackout hardtop.
I noticed in the install videos for other games that there is adhesive in the shooter lane area. Blackout does not have this and I assume this is correct since the side rails will hold it down. Just wanted to make sure it’s not supposed to have adhesive under there.
Also there are 2 small strips of plastic connecting the open part of the shooter lane. Should I just remove these when I’m doing any trimming?
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Yes, rails will hold it down. HOWEVER, once you have it lined up as best you can with inserts and switch slots, look at how the shooter lane lines up. I didn't take note to this until I had already applied the hardtop. Trimming the hardtop shooter lane channel is much easier while the hardtop is not applied to the game.
Quoted from goingincirclez:Yeah, that came outta nowhere. Where's Space Station and F-14?
I KNOW! The moment I place my order for Blackout, they'll announce Space Station to screw me out of combined shipping...
(Seriously I was holding off thinking *maybe any moment now* but... arrgh. First World Problem, I know).
Order Blackout now!
IMG_7800 (resized).jpgAdmittedly, it's been a little while since I've played a Firepower with standups. I can confirm Firepower with a Hardtop plays plenty fast with drops. I have been adding molex connectors to all of the Williams 3-6 games drop banks.
D881791C-CAF3-4C81-94F7-728FE7164BFB (resized).jpgIMG_7612 (resized).jpgLooks great!
Quoted from manples:Very happy so far with my Blackout hardtop.
Two remarks for those who will get one too :
1. I was missing 2 holes, one for the "adjustable" left post of the left outlane, and one by the right flipper for the anti-cheat (flush) ball guide. This hole is right in the middle of the Blackout "K". Make sure you locate it before the installation.
The hole on my playfield went all the way through. I just drilled up through the bottom.
Quoted from manples:2. I replaced all my inserts and simply ordered the same colors as I had initially. I should have put more thoughts into... Not sure why but Williams used some orange/amber arrow inserts in front of the top right drop targets bank. These are the targets related to the "transition Yellow" callout. Why didn't they use yellow inserts ? Same for the related small round insert between the red and green 5000s. It would have made way more sense to have these inserts all yellow... anyway too late for me but whoever is reading and in the process of restoring a Blackout, maybe consider yellow inserts if you want to bring more logic to your machine
I replaced all of mine as well. I didn't think about using yellow either. I did however take a few other liberties. I changed the inlanes to red, out lanes to clear(w/ color changing led), and blue for the bonus multipliers at the bottom.
I totally get that. From my standpoint and current condition of my flash, a full playfield swap isn’t worth it for me. Based on how much I like flash, I’d spend $325 and the time to do it. I wouldn’t spend $700-$800 plus all the extra time to do it. That’s just me though.
For what it’s worth, I have no interest in buying a repro playfield for Flash. I like it just enough to do a Hardtop. I’ll pick one up after I do my Gorgar hardtop.
Quoted from Mathazar:I don't see it so much as duplicating each other's efforts. They are different products catering to differing markets and levels of refurbishment:
Hardtop: $300
Sometimes requires as little as partial top level tear down only, sometimes a full topside tear down, could be installed in as little as a weekend if motivated. Caters to the casual pinhead looking to spruce up his machine as quickly and economically as possible.
Repro Playfield: $800-$1000
Requires total teardown and rebuild of both topside and bottom side taking anywhere from a few weeks to a few months depending on the knowledge and skills of the pinhead doing the work. May require additional time for clear curing, or even a re-clear if not satisfied with the factory finish, adding more time and requiring more skills to do the job. Caters to the top level pinheads and purists wanting to fully restore a machine.
In my experience I've found that most folks/purists who do playfield swaps wouldn't entertain doing a hardtop even if a hardtop is available for a title where there is no repro playfield being made. And vice versa - the economically challenged or those who lack the skills or time tend to stick to hardtops and wouldn't attempt a repro playfield swap even if that was the only thing available for their title.
The point being....both CPR and Outside Edge are interested in making sales. Even in cases with duplicate titles, they're each catering to their respective markets and those respective markets rarely intersect.
I will agree full swaps are more work and more expensive. I’ve done two hardtops and would not regard them as a casual’s project, per se. There is no “partial” upper playfield tear down. Everything comes off the top side. They recommend putting down a coat of clear(rattle can is fine) after sanding it down. Also, there is always a bit of hole alignment drilling to be done on the hardtop. I replaced all the inserts on the two I did. Obviously you don’t have to do that if you don’t want to. I realize that purists don’t like them and that is totally fine. Now, I have a Frontier which I love and isn’t in too bad a shape. I may very well send that playfield to someone to touch up and clear Vs put a hardtop on it. I just think it’s nice to have a variety of options to make games nice whether it’s a full swap, touch up or hardtop.
Quoted from Mathazar:I've done three hardtops myself (two EBD and one MH) with a BK in the queue. The MH was my first - I left the DT banks and slingshot mechs in so I did have some stuff poking thru the top as I laid down the hardtop but I see your point. OK - full topside tear down needed. I didn't clear anything...just sanded off the insert artwork and then wet sanded the inserts to get them nice, smooth, and shiny.
When I did the two EBD's, I did remove some mechs for cleaning in addition to everything topside. I also did put a light coat of rattlecan clean on them instead of wet sanding the inserts before putting the hardtop tops down. Either method works IMO - not sure yet which one I'll use for the upcoming Black Knight.
Just finished my first playfield swap to a CPR Meteor and working on fixing the cabinet now before a re-stenciling. If Outside Edge offered a Meteor hardtop, I would've taken that in a second over a CPR playfield. And the only reason I got the CPR playfield was that a local guy was selling it so cheap I couldn't resist it (never used but had the "missing METEOR DT score values" blemish/omission). I got the swap done, but it's too nerve-wracking for me to be drilling dozens and dozens of holes in a $900 playfield, fearing I'm going to ruin it at any moment. I did make a bunch of mistakes but in the end was able to recover. Not worth the high blood pressure, tho....give me a hardtop any day!
That’s funny I was tempted with the exact same scenario on CPR Meteor repro that a friend got. He ended up sending it back.
I had to trim my Blackout shooter lane. Unfortunately, I didn't realize until after I had adhered it. I got it done but probably would have been able to make it a bit cleaner if I had trimmed it before applying the hardtop.
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:How many of you guys had to trim off the hard top at the shooter lane because it was too far to one side? My Gorgar is over hanging on the left side?
I had to do this on my Blackout. Trim the Hardtop BEFORE you adhere it. I learned that the hard way. Also, I've never noticed any ball jumping in the shooter lane.
Quoted from HydrogenHuman:What's the recommended strategy for installing a hardtop if the original playfield has a lot of really badly raised inserts? Do you just pop them out or do you sand them down?
I have replaced most of the inserts on the Hardtop installations I have done but you absolutely don't have to do that. I would assume most people don't. As others have said, you can sand them as they sit in the playfield. Use the heat gun or freeze spray method to get all of the mylar up before you start sanding. I wipe the playfield with a tack cloth and then naphtha after sanding. Outside Edge recommends spraying the playfield with clear coat(allow proper curing time) before apply the Hardtop. The clear coat should shine up the inserts after you sand the playfield.
I have seen a lot of people putting black around the inserts. I have done a Blackout, Gorgar and Firepower. I haven't ever had the need to do this. Before applying it, you lay the hardtop down to see how things are lining up. If I ran into a situation where the optimal position for the hardtop still left some wood showing by an insert then I would worry with preemptively painting key lines. I use two big rubber footed clamps, at one end, to hold the hardtop in place when applying it. That has kept it from drifting any when pulling the backing off and sticking that end of the hardtop.
Quoted from mrm_4:Pop in the new inserts. Sand them level starting with 120 then step up to 600. Then get an acrylic black paint pen NOT A SHARPIE and out line all your inserts, then lay down a couple coats of rattle can gloss clear.
I am less confident in my spraying skills and, apparently, really like sanding. 
I step sand new inserts through about ten steps. I clear coat the playfield and after letting it cure, then glue in my inserts that I sanded up to a luster.
Quoted from wrd1972_PinDoc:I have an observation and question on waxing a Hardtop. Maybe OE can chime in.
It seems to me that waxing a Hardtop is of little benefit because the plastic surface is so non-porous. When I apply a coating of wax to it, it simply does not "soak" into the surface from what I can tell, and the wax seems to be quickly picked up by the ball. Obviously, a painted or clearcoated PF is far more porous than a HT, and therefore retains the wax like we expect it too.
I am questioning if there is any value to waxing the HT at all because of the non-porous surface.
Thoughts?
I just hit with some Novus 1, every once in a while.
The triangle inserts have been banana’s on all three early ss Williams hardtops I’ve done. Not that anyone needs to but I took the longer route and replaced inserts(swapping a few colors), stand ups, eject shields and pop bumper hardware. I guess I enjoy the resto-mod aspect of it. I used a couple of color changing leds under clear inserts and eject shields, in a few cases. However you do it, have fun with it and enjoy your pristine playfield when you are done! Also, mind your shooter lane alignment before you stick it down. It’s much easier to trim before it’s adhered.
9C633BF0-B82E-4852-92A7-4C2ACFBC7302 (resized).jpegDA3C1852-226C-4604-912D-E3EFB6721CE1 (resized).jpegJust a thought. Remove the stock rubber there. Use a bolt with two nylock nuts. Add some washers if your nuts are small enough to go through the hole. That way you could tighten the nuts to either side of the bracket and adjust the lower limit of the plunger. You could also use a stick on rubber, on the top of the bolt, to absorb the energy of the plunger as it returns to it's home position.
Quoted from interconnect:Would you guys hardtop this playfield?
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You don't have to but I've redone the inserts on all my Hardtop installs.
Quoted from wastedthelight:No turning back now! Wood is done, just have to smooth out the inserts then put a seal coat on. Hoping to install the hardtop next weekend![quoted image][quoted image]
I've got to do this one, once I get done with all these playfield swaps and and scratch builds...
Here is my mostly finished platform which I run my Gorgar and Firepower Hardtop conversions in. I will eventually do one on my Flash playfield too. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-system-3-6-multi-pin#post-7522190
Quoted from Lovef2k:Supersonic?
I’m on board for this one!
Quoted from ROMM:Wouldn't think so, considering Haggis currently has the rights to Fathom and now Centaur too.
Well, not necessarily. It depends on the license and whether it's exclusive.
Quoted from Timerider:Maybe see if Haggis will sell you a "B-Stock" playfield? (something presentable; but not one they'll use in their production)
This is a really interesting idea. I wonder if all of the routing is identical. Haggis might have tweaked some of the routing per their mechs. The trough is one area that comes to mind. They use a modern style ball trough on their games.
Quoted from Mathazar:I can attest to that. I did Meteor (3) a couple years ago and Flash (5) this year. One of the biggest pains in both restorations....getting the clear out of the star inserts without breaking said inserts. Nerve wracking.
I agrees with this with the exception of having to realign and install the center post on Meteor. The CPR dimple was off.
Quoted from Charles_Kline:How much is the thicker plastic messing up the spinner disc height?
Don't quote me on it but I think the spinner heights are adjustable.
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Richmond, VA