What does the original base you are replacing look like on there?

He's got it now.

The thin, flat lamp leads go down the small holes

He only needs to slightly enlarge those holes if he is switching to LED caps, and needs a little breathing room for the thicker, insulated wire
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Oh lord I finally see what you're saying and feel pretty dumb about it tbh. That metal bracket in the large opening accepts the screws from the base and the smaller holes in the wood accommodate the flat lamp lead or will accommodate wires (which I absolutely will be using rather than the old school flat leads) with some slight drilling. Wallowing out those holes clearly won't matter because that's not where the screws go. Oof.

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It's nothing to feel dumb about, your brain was probably thinking Williams

The only other bally I've worked on at this kind of level was EBD, which uses yet another pop configuration. Otherwise it's been all Williams.

Oh well, at least it makes sense now!

Just installed my latest Hardtop.

I made a request that OE not pre-cut the switch, lamp, wire-form, flipper alignment pin, and drop-target holes in the HT. I did this to ensure the best possible fit without having to "balance" the alignments of the artwork, and the alignment of the holes for the above mentioned parts. All other screw and misc. holes are pre-cut as normal.

I was able to perfectly align the HT based on the artwork, and then cutout the required holes with this bit, and then stick it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00O4TFHJW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title

This ultimately gave me a dead-nuts perfectly aligned fitment across all holes and the artwork, and there are no visual cues that it is a HT that was used. It looks exactly like a brand new PF without the visual cues that again, point to a HT install.

All in all in did not take much more than an hour of additional work, and I would highly recommend this if OE decides there is a market for it. But be warned, this is not for the fain-of-heart, and there is no room for slip-ups and oops's. Those interested might post up if they are interested in a Professional Hardtop that is configured as mentioned above.

Do you happen to have pics of what it looked like before and during installation? Curious to see this!

Hey VID, where are those led available through?
They look like 4 led's and I like how they are wired from under the playfield.

Pop Bumper Discs: https://www.cometpinball.com/products/pop-bumper-discs

Comet, you add the wires yourself:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-hardtop-restoration-comet#post-4470156

Thanks for the link, nice work.

Soooo I f***ed up my Blackout hardtop install.

I should have vacuumed around the inserts before putting down the hardtop.
Now there's very visible dust and stuff stuck in the middle ...

Can't massage it out, can't blow it out.
I guess I can dremel out the inserts from below and put in new ones, but not sure about the results then.

Is it an option to remove the hardtop and put a new in place, or is the 3m tape too sticky for that and will take out the wood ?

Pretty sure once the hard top is down thats it, pulling it up will destroy the graphics.

I'm not worried about the graphics - a new hardtop has all that is needed

To be clear I am considering buying a 2nd hardtop, take off the old one and put on #2 instead (after sanding etc. of course).

But I'm not sure if the 3m tape will take with it (a lot of) wood or not ?

Ok that makes sense. Thought you were asking as if it could be reused. I have read acouple threads that people have pulled the hardtop due to bubbling or whatever and yes it is a pain in the ass cleaning all the sticky off the PF.

It's possible to remove a hardtop, but it is NOT FUN AT ALL. If ya'll remember a couple years ago OE had that infamous run of hardtops with the bad batch of adhesive (their print vendor changed an ingredient in OE's adhesive formula without notifying OE). The result was many customers experienced bubbling, lifting, and damaged artwork on their hardtops within days of installation. I was one of those customers - mine was Eight Ball Deluxe. OE did us right by replacing the hardtop with a free one, but wow was it labor intensive to get the old one off. Setting aside the time and effort to pull out the playfield and teardown the topside again, it took me about 15 hours (across multiple days) to get every bit of glue remnants off of the playfield and ready for a new hardtop.

The bad hardtop itself came off ok with some muscle. The glue and artwork it left behind....yikes. 15 hours of GooGone and scraper work. And it's not like all of the pieces came off in big chunks....there were tons and tons of little pieces to get off (my hands hurt for days). But, in the end, the replacement hardtop with the corrected adhesive formula worked great and still looks/plays like new 100's of games later.

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Yep thats the one I remember seeing. Wow what a pain in the rear. But with some elbow grease it turned out great.

The 3M 300LSE adhesive is the same as they use to stick down trim on cars and screens on cell phones

You need heat to remove it, just like if you replace the battery on your phone.

This expert uses a Wonder Wheel to remove the glue residue

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VFACQRE

I had this same unfortunate experience (OE made good on it, and I say buy with confidence now!). He’s not exaggerating on the amount of time and effort it takes to strip the glue off. IT SUCKS!

PITA to remove. I used lacquer thinner and a scraper to get off what I could. Then I used 80 grip sandpaper and a RO sander, and that got the rest off. Takes several hours do do, but it can be done. Not fun at all.

Ouch .. OK, I see this is gonna take time and effort.
Hope I have learned my lesson now ...

Thanks for all the responses and help !

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HS Hardtop done and I'm very pleased w the results. At first fitment I was skeptical. I even sent it back to get it checked out. I did have to relocate the flipper rest pins and buffer wires below the flippers. Many holes were off but with the right tools and patients, it all worked out. Most of the holes are covered by posts or something, so they are mostly hidden when all done.

I did a couple minor lighting mods, one was adding flex LED's under the star rollovers and then I added a translucent tray under the saucer and lit that up as well.

I can't say weather or not this is an easier job than a straight up pf swap. I guess it depends on the title. This game also needed a ton of work under the PF as far as mechanical parts and lamp sockets. So this turned into a partial restore.

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That looks beautiful - quite jealous! I'm getting re-acquainted with a High Speed at my local bowling center after not playing it for 20+ years. Now I want one! Nice touch with the red powder coated ball habitrails!

thanks! It's funny, the first time I played HS it was also at a bowling alley. It was with a girl I was dating at the time and we went there just to play pins. That was 1986. Great memories!

I love the candy red, I have seen the habitrails done in green and blue as well but I like the red more.

HS comes up often, I'm sure you will find one.

Are these scuffs where the inserts/clear parts are considered fine/normal? Just wanted to make sure before laying it on. Doesn't seem to clean off.

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Do you still have the plastic film on the bottom side?

Great info here. Thanks

I took off the top film. I don't think the bottom has a film other than the adhesive paper?

That's what you're seeing in that picture, peel back a corner to double check but it should be crystal clear once that adhesive back is removed.

I tried to scratch at a corner on the bottom, definitely no film there. I'll try cleaning it more, just didn't want to risk screwing up anything on the backside.

There is no adhesive on the back side of the inserts. If you peeled the top protective film and you are seeing fine scratches or hazing I would not lay it down. It may have gotten damaged in shipping or the way it was stored or defective. I would contact OE first. Once that HT is applied, there's no turning back and if the inserts are screwed, you will never be happy with it.

Side note, don't remove the top film until you have most of the PF reassembled. I just trim off pieces at a time where I need to. Also make sure there is no debris on the PF before lying it down. Anything that is floating around may end up being trapped between the clear sections and the PF and be trapped for good. Don't used compressed air near the HT as this may stir up more dirt and dust, just keep wiping the PF with a tack cloth.

My opinion on this. I have done several Hardtops, and all of them had some unusual haze or very fine scratches on a few of the clear insert areas like what is being described here. I don't know where it comes from, but my guess it might be caused from the manufacturing process of the HT. I don't know if they screen-print these, or print them on a printer. But if its screen-printed, I can see the squeegee making these blemishes during the pull process. Again, this is simply my guess, I really don't know how they make these.

With the above said, I still stuck my Hardtops and never saw any problem with the light shining through. IMO, the blemish is completely non-visible with the lamps off or on, and I don't consider it a problem at all. Perhaps you blemishes are worse than mine. Just my two cents.

They’re digitally printed, not screened.

I had it on a couple Gorgar inserts. Don't notice it when insert is illuminated as you stated, but visible when it is not. Not an issue for me as this is not a repro playfield. I never expected it to be perfect. Overall, I'm amazed at how nice it turned out!
However, Galdaien has a worse example than mine. I would not install it!

Anyone know how close Elektra is coming along? Been checking every day so see if it was released yet. My cabinet is in good shape, backglass in great shape, upper and lower playfields roached.

I know this probably won't get much traction, but I'd love to see a Stellar Wars hardtop.

Do you guys plan on making a Data East Simpsons Hard Top?

Still waiting for Elektra! Hope it is out soon.

Got to try out a few machines with hardtops at Pinfest and was solidly impressed. I've played overlays that have been clear coated, and can honestly say that a hardtop plays better and looks better. I have never actually installed one, but with someone without skin in the game I would say that they play as good or better than new and look amazing. 10/10 would buy a game with one already installed and would probably attempt an install on my own. I look forward to you guys covering more tables and enabling more pins to be brought back to life.

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Probably not, it's licensed. Outside Edge's MO: A) Non licensed B) medium/large selling game C) A game they have a good scannable copy of

I played one at Allentown, it just reinforced my opinion I never want one which is too bad as it looks like on paper an alternative to a new playfield.

There were a few at Allentown that showed the difference between a good installation and a bad one.

The one Space Shuttle looked and played perfectly to me. The one on 8 ball deluxe further back in freeplay did not. The inserts were cloudy in places where it looked like they had not sanded smoothly, and there were decided lumps in the playfield... I don't know how that was done.

Xenon and Space Shuttle seemed to play perfectly to me.

I 100% recommend these as an option ESPECIALLY over an overlay, even with clearcoat. I've had 2 machines with overlays. One was an install job I did myself on an Attack From Mars. The overlay was missing art. One was the Flash Gordon I now have that is expertly installed and clear coated. It is missing a few little things (no numbers on the arrows on the upper playfield), and doesn't line up perfectly, (holes line up perfectly on left of playfield but are off on right.

I did not see the types of issues I saw with missing art on Outside Edge Hardtops like I do with ebay vinyl overlays.

Edit to add, Gdonovan, you are one of the few pinsiders who can actually touch up a playfield and clear it to make it look perfect. I would recommend you keep doing what you do as your results are amazing. Leave the hardtops to us amatures.

THIS. You HAVE to sand the pf flat before you lay down the hardtop. If you don't do that, it's not going to be level.

Oh I would not mind a hardtop on a few titles, depends on the title and cost/benefit/time line.

Just the three I have played have been negative experiences with the one at Allentown being the worst. I'll not finger the pin as I have no desire to bag on someone bringing a pin to the show.

The ball got stuck three times during gameplay which is the point I gave up and moved onto another title.

I look at hardtops as being another tool in our toolbox for bringing pins back to life. Glad to have it there if needed but maybe not in all cases.

That depends. The beauty of the hardtop, beside the looks, cost, ease of installation, and playability is that the PET-G plastic that it's made of is rigid enough that it can "bridge" small dips in the playfield, most notably cupped inserts, and make the playfield perfectly flat. Where I can see "lumps" in the playfield occurring:

- Someone got a little over-enthusiastic with the orbital sander when removing artwork from the inserts and, without applying the same enthusiasm to the rest of the playfield, created dips large enough that the hardtop could not overcome them and the hardtop "lifted" due to lack of adhesive mass.

- The hardtop installed was from that batch about 18 months ago that had a defect in the adhesive/ink formula. This affected dozens of shipped hardtops, many of which got installed before the problem was caught and corrected (I know, I was one of those people). The most affected titles in this bad batch were EBD and BK.

- Installer did not remove ALL protruding or proud objects from the playfield before installing. Most common offenders in this category are the little wood "lips" that get created in the playfield from screws and posts overly tightened over 35+ years.

So you wouldn’t buy one because the ball was getting stuck? What was causing it to get stuck? Not criticizing, I’m genuinely curious.

I would not be inclined to buy one before due to past negative experiences, my experience with this title just reinforced it further.

Never had a ball get stuck in an inlane before. Had to shake the hell out of the pin to shake it loose.

Not cool.

I'd like to buy one for the Space Shuttle I have here, each time I have an interaction with a hardtopped pin its a negative experience.

Am I to ignore what I have seen with my own eyes and buy one anyways? No thanks. Maybe its just bad luck on my part having run across three bad examples in a row, nothing I want to gamble a few hundred bucks and a few days labor to find out in person.