Best post of the thread!

TV/movie success doesn't always translate to pinball success, there are plenty of crappy shows that make fun games and vice-versa. The challenge with TOG is to compress 4000 pages of book material and 50 hours of TV material into a fun and meaningful game experience... the door is wide open for failure, as it is with any game. Play before deciding.

Besides, the source material behind The Hobbit is timeless, it didn't require the movies to be made to be received with enthusiasm.

Ritchie does what he wants in his own time... it took 2 years for him to design ST, which is a simple rehash of the SM layout. The pinball world will be greatly disappointed if he did not push Stern to replace the DMD in this particular title with the massive amount of time he spent on it.

Yea but you did that by stating how awesome and relevant bot GoT and LOTR are as compared to TH, which I questioned.

Ultimately licensing is king and LOTR/TH/GOT are 3 of the 4 hottest fantasy licenses available today and are no-brainers for pinball whomever makes them.... the real challenge is getting the Harry Potter license.

Perfect... the battle of blackwater! Add a save Sansa shot in the tower, whitewalker bash toys that pop up from the playfield, dragons over the ramps, I can see it so clearly

So the moral of the story is: reveal before completion is bad? For Stern games I see countless mod threads of by Stern customers coming up with solutions to annoying game play and aesthetic issues. There's obviously benefits and drawbacks to each approach, but I'd lean toward customer feedback before finalization as a slightly better approach.

Maybe, but you have to admit it's a lot better than sticking a random toy in a cylinder for the "big reveal"

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I agree playfield art doesn't diminish game play whatsoever, but if it's ugly to look at it will sell less, and sales are a good indicator of a great game. I've heard very few complaints about LOTR artwork, but that Angus mug on the Pro in place of the lower playfield is one reason for the brisk sales of the Premium/LE.

The resolution is crappy, but it remains the best integration of licensing assets from Stern to date.

$9k is MSRP

This may be a fun player, but it reminds me of the worst era of Stern's playfield and cabinet art. 2 freaking years in the making!!??!

Also THIS is why I've been so opposed to Stern making more than one gameplay platform... Removal of the entire upper playfield is a slap in the face of Pro buyers, so I'm curious to see buyer reactions. I was considering this game, best license in years, double normal game development time, and it ends with lame art and a seriously gimped Pro playfield. For now I can confidently say "I'm out"

Sure, we don't know what we don't know, but at initial glance, the exclusion on the Pro becomes a dealbreaker for me because I am a fan of upper and lower playfields, and then the barrier to entry is significant @$7k. I've also yet to find a Stern Pro that is a frontrunner over any Premium/LE model, your opinion may differ, but that's mine.

The upper playfield could also be a significant issue if you spend all your time practicing GoT Pro on-location and then enter a tournament with a Premium/LE without a feel for the upper playfield, particularly if there is significant gameplay value up there. It's obviously more involved than ACDC's lower playfield, or TF's mini playfield. I just don't agree with Stern's approach to significant gameplay differences across its models, but at least they offer up the Premiums to avoid the full gameplay being limited to a fixed ceiling of games manufactured.

"Earn gold and spend it on needed weapons and features"? No one in GoT is trying to earn gold to get weapons, it's like the designers are treating this game as a generic D&D platform. This is a good example of the root cause behind the negative reaction - the entire package doesn't feel like Game of Thrones.

In a series with so many characters, picking 3 characters for a translite is an odd choice, on most pins Stern splatters the backglass and cabinets with hoards of characters, and it would be far more interesting than picking 3. On the LE they chose Daenarys/Kahl Drogo/Missandei. Like Eddard Stark, Drogo was a series starter but no real lasting impact... Missandei is a better choice because she persists, but why leave out the likes of Mormont, Sir Barriston, and Gray Worm? The entire LE cabinet is 1 dragon, mirrored on each side... can they be even less inspired? For starters, there are 3 dragons...it's a very important detail that says "this is GOT not The Hobbit."

I do like that Stern makes an effort to keep actor faces off the playfields, but the playfield severely lacks artistic vision and detail. Even POTC (which it reminds me of) is also sparse and sand colored but has a touch of artistic flair. The plain grey background behind the shields is the biggest cop-out I've seen, and as mentioned previously shouldn't they be banners? Again this isn't a generic Medieval theme with knights and shields, it's Game of Thrones with families raising banners. And the gears? enough said about that.

And lest I mention the castle. It looks like an awesome playfield with full flippers and inlanes! But Game of Thrones is not about fighting dragons in castles (at least not for the first 5 seasons or first 5 books). I would have themed that playfield about fighting whitewalkers, which is one item that is very specific GOT but just doesn't exist except for backboard art... I don't think the designers understand how core it is to the series. No ships either... Just a castle, or in the case of the Pro, a random castle door in the middle of nowhere.

This whole package smacks of a generic medieval theme, and a real turn-off for fans of the show or the books, as it obviously lacks most details of the show, and there isn't even enough to call it a sufficient generic D&D effort either. Just last month we were debating how difficult it would be for Stern to put 500 hours of TV/4000 pages of plot into this game, and it turns out they punted on all the content. It's the worst of all worlds for fans.

It still may be fun to play, but if this is the result of 2 years worth of design and research into Game of Thrones, I'm seriously baffled. Now the burden is on Dwight Sullivan to capture the core of the series in the software... so there's still a chance!

Since the "choose your battle" insert is not on the pro, one would have to assume it has something to do with the upper castle playfield.

I see that now, the row of inserts with "Castle Black" has been moved upward in the pro with the removal of the castle, and "Castle Black" is replaced with "Extra Ball" and "Mystery". Does this mean one of the 3 dragons is attacking Castle Black? Where are the other two? If it's not a future spoiler it's just one more example that the game is completely disconnected from the story.

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My thought as well... a true to the series pinball machine would be latching on to the more enduring characters, not ones with an early death and little relevance on the future.

Adding to this I just realized they moved "Extra Ball" and "Mystery" inserts from the right orbit on the Premium/LE to go in place of the "Castle Black" shot on the Pro. It seems like an unnecessary and ultimately confusing game play change.

You are right, there are quite a few fun games with ugly playfields... the biggest issue I have with this game is its general disconnect with the series. Even if the software helps fill in these gaps, we will have the permanent disconnect etched in laser cut metal... Where did "Fire & Blood" come from when the source material is "A Song of Ice and Fire"? Had they thought about simple details as such I think the playfield design would have reflected the theme in a more cohesive package.

That's good to know, it may also explain why Kahl Drogo is on the translite since at that point he was still a relevant character.

Lets spin this 180 degrees....The question is this: Why is Stern doing clip-art playfields and cabinets rather than using these "old time artists" to do what they do best? Anyone hear anything but accolades for KISS and MET art? Nope, because they were done old school *without* clip art.

Most brilliant observation in the entire thread! Everyone give this a +1

But then again, Stern's fear of Pros taking Premium or LE sales resulted in GoT Pro... be careful what we ask for.

This is all you'll hear from Pinsiders: "Stop whining, that's why they make 3 models".

Speak with your wallet.

The LE artwork is nice, and will be regarded highly when people receive the game, but the common complaints are valid:

a) People prefer action shots that reflect the story, not just artificially posed actor portraits pasted side by side as Stern commonly does on Pro models (e.g., ST Pro vs LE). What would a Daenarys action shot be anyhow? In that they can have a pass.

b) The cabinet is just a dragon. It's very well rendered, and it is an action shot, but there is no background to give it context. Where is it? Who or what is it breathing fire at? Where are the other two dragons? In other words if all you had was a pic of the cabinet how would you know it was from GoT vs The Hobbit or any other generic medieval fantasy theme? Again, it's hard to complain about the art quality, the complaint is similar to the playfield issue: it is a single, generic, dragon, not obviously unique to GoT.

So it falls short of a slam dunk and it becomes easy to see why LE buyers are waiting for the Premium reveal to make a choice. If Stern uses the delay to make the Premium artwork the one to beat, it will be worth their while, but they sure are proud of their photorealistic LE backglass. Again complaints will eventually go away, but hesitancy is understandable at this point when you have the playfield issues hanging out there as well.

It's normal for Stern to release pics and days or weeks later post more detailed images and a video then start building within the month. I doubt real pics will look substantially different as there is only so much one can do with stills and video is nearly impossible to get a feel for the game. Everyone should see it and play it in person to decide... and that's where the catch-22 comes into play... need distributors willing to put all 3 models on the floor or local guinea pigs willing to buy blind (contrary to recommendation) and invite others over to try it out.

Yes, give them credit putting the highly demanded throne in place of the castle... it's better than nothing. It is disappointing they wound up removing the primary reference to wall/whitewalkers to do this, but it's par for the course for a playfield never did an adequate job reflecting the theme in the first place... it's not like Whitewalkers are threatening to take over the seven kingdoms or anything.

Look, Ritchie's way is to design the Premium/LE and then cuts features to come up with the Pro. For ACDC most people were largely good with the Pro, but the Premium/LE sold like wildfire because that is the game as he designed it. For ST, the Premium/LE were largely bling (which is awesome), but with GoT Ritchie chose to design an upper playfield that Stern wouldn't approve for the Pro, and the result was going to be a huge cavernous gap, and obviously no one at Stern cared enough to fill it.

You can blame Ritchie for designing an upper playfield at all, or you can blame Stern for not having a sufficient replacement for it on the Pro, but the fact is this: If you like the game and want the designer's full vision buy the Premium/LE. You're not going to get it from the Pro.

Stern has likely run a large chunk of the playfields by now (I'd say 1000+) and they would need to ask themselves if an awesome newly designed playfield would boost sales to the point where 1000 finished playfields in the trash would be worth while. JJP decided it was worth it to them, but I doubt they had as many finished playfields to toss.

I disagree... keeping actor mugs off the playfield is the best thing that Stern does. Who wants to see a timeless property plastered with actors from a single version of a show and watch it become dated the very next reboot? The Shadow gets no end of criticism for it's actor-based translite. Spider Man has actors from a single rendition that is already out of date (fortunately Stern kept the actors to the plastics and only a little on the translite). How many different Batman pins do we have with different actors plastered on each? Had they all kept to the comic source material they would have remained timeless, but instead they are all dated.

GoT has no animated source material, and the license is largely for the HBO show, so actor mugs is all we have. However I have to give Stern credit for keeping actor mugs to the cabinet and translite art... it's more than plenty, and will give longevity to the title.

Yes, and times have changed....home sales > operator sales, and Stern markets 2 of their 3 models to home buyers. They've done a decent job keeping actors off playfields, since Avengers, and as I mentioned in my original post, in many games prior to that.

Not much different on ST Pro/Premium... the family portraits are always boring. Actors can be fine if integrated properly in the art work, SM is a good example of this.

I don't think it would be the best idea... Lyman's best games are those he codes by himself. Likely the same with Keith.

This sums it up well....nice art is important to a pin owner, and GoT art is no Stargazer even if it winds up being more fun to play.

Well, there are the clips being released every 2 days...

...which, I agree, are very pointless.

On the Premium/LE only...the Pro has a fairly standard set of interactive mechs... dragon w/kickback, battering ram, sword lock, and drop targets.

I'm not sure I'd skimp on art over mechs, as almost every successful game didn't compromise on either. In fact, bad art can overshadow extra toys and mechs.

Yes, the feature matrix lists it as an "animated interactive dragon toy" and a dragon kickback.

Haha. I will never be able to look at that mysterious door any other way. Is the "outhouse" GoT's equivalent of the LOTR LE backglass faux pas?

Interesting... while ACDC MSRPs were substantially higher than anything else at that time, street prices remained normal for 2012... $4200/5500/6400 or so before shipping. If Stern did another Tron Pro run today, it would have the same MSRP as the LEs originally did

So sure are you? Whether they do it by intention or accident, it happens. IMO Luci outshines both ACDC LE's, and ST Premium outshines STLE. Many people prefer Met Monsters Premium over METLE (though I'm not one of them). Conspiracy theory also tells me they may have stopped powder coating Premium armor just in case they accidentally make the cab/translite better than the LE, it leaves an obvious differentiator.

I like the "laser red" rails with the Premium theme better than the blue rails on the LE, which is another of Stern's blue-on-blue-on-blue color schemes. Add Aurich's translite to the Premium and the only aesthetic difference left is the laser cut EL rails.

Did Stern actually modify a playfield in response to customer feedback? It does look better on the Premium, but when a simple color or change of two backgrounds resulted in 60% of the playfield changing, there is obviously a lot of unused space. I'll now put it in the "acceptable" category just like all the cabinet art. Is it only for Premium though? Seems fine to keep the desert feel for the LE, but the Pro could use the darker playfield.. at least it lessens the impact of gear-mania.

I'm still not a fan of putting a few portraits on a relatively plain background, it still smacks of lack of effort, I was really hoping Stern spent a little more time on the Premium after the initial reactions but I don't think they get it. I want to see a scene, I want to feel a connection to the story, have it emote, most B/W games did that, but even the Whitewalker looks like he went to a Sears Portrait Studio for that shot. If that's all HBO allowed Stern to do, it's a shame. The artwork is on par for a Stern game though...not to JJP level, far from Kevin O'Connor's KISS, and not in the ballpark of DD or ZY pinball art ... the custom artists will sell a game on artwork alone.

GoT is going to be all about game play, but it looks positive so far... The Pro looks fun, but I can't get over the fact that it's missing the entire upper playfield leaving only an outhouse, and shots are moved from the Premium/LE. If the upper playfield doesn't fit the Pro price point, fine... having it on the Premium/LE is better than nothing at all. Maybe it's time for Stern to start designing stand-alone Pros rather than being a partial version of the designer's vision.

Comparison shot... the changes weren't big, but blending and color consistency is significantly better. I like the touches of snowfall on playfield objects.

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Yea, no one knows how to run the Valyrian Steampunk machines, so the gears rusted out.

The nit picking is an extension of the general complaint that the story is not fully reflected on the visuals on any of the 3 games, meaning a little change can go a long way as evidenced in with the Premium playfield... so lets give a little credit to the nit pickers of the world

Art is one of the reasons I've never wanted a Tron Pro or ACDC Pro, regardless of quality of game play. They need something substantial to overshadow the poor art decisions like the lighted ramps in a Tron or a lower playfield on ACDC. Customers have had to come up with solutions for Pro models like Eli's Ramps or Angus Face decal, but GoT Pro is missing an entire upper playfield... tough to replace that much.

No door action that I'm aware of. The battering ram is one of only 6 primary shots, so it's likely to be an important shot....otherwise it's just a fancy stand-up target.

Define declining... Just like pins, prices appear to have doubled compared to 7 years ago when I started buying.

Come now, who uses real facts on Pinside?

Actually considering he is from NZ he is likely referring to issues with exchange rate and perhaps low in-country values of B/W games? if this really is the case, some oportunistic folks in the U.S. should be able take advantage and start importing games back here.

Good move on Stern's part... glad to hear it's been done on the LE too.

Huge inserts is Ritchie's trademark... It works ok in ST (if you overlook the giant phallus), but they usually feel oversized. It may have made more sense with incandescent bulbs but with the increase in brightness of LEDs it is no longer necessary. A compromise would be to have artwork over the inserts like IJ-W... I love that feature.

The skittles light show is what I always fear when someone converts a LOTR to LEDs... The good news is that it is fixable in GoT via software...the bad news is based on the colors of the house shields, I don't think anything will be done about it as they didn't come up with a cohesive color scheme as was done on LOTR.

Actually I think that turned out to be a brilliant idea for Stern. They released a render, received feedback and were able to make changes as a result. The issues with art lacking emotion, and playfield art lacking thematic elements remains. I'm hoping they do a pre-release with a render for all future games.

I think the upper playfield implementation is impressive. Full sized flippers, inlanes just requires you to make a handful of shots and it gets you back down to the main playfield wanting more. It's not timed like FG, and not a 2-shot sequence like TSPP. The Pro is going to be sorely missing it.

Yes mini playfield doesn't even impede the flow of the game, the ball flows quickly up the ramp and drops into the playfield, hit the lit targets, and it flows back into play depending on the shot. If you watched the feed, you may have noticed it was possible to cradle a ball on the lower flipper while playing the upper playfield. Again, another amazing detail.

As to what the mini playfield adds to the rules, it's hard to tell. Stern has a track record of implementing gadgets on the LEs that don't add significantly to the rules or scoring, like the shaker playfield on TFLE, or hell on ACDC, but this is a whole different deal. I'm thinking that because the Pro doesn't have the mini playfield Dwight purposefully won't make it a substantial part of the game... and this is why I do not like Stern's policy of making 2 different game platforms. On the other hand, if Dwight actually makes it a substantial part of the game, I'll be very impressed, and consider they did it right. Let's see how it goes... fingers crossed!

Yes, I think most multi-flipper games can do this, was nice to confirm GoT can as well. Just wait until micro switches start being used.

I like that they had Robert play the game for the stream... so much better than watching everyone else hack away at it.

Agreed, "amazing" wasn't the right word, in fact right after seeing my post I thought about removing it, but was too lazy to click the button

Can you confirm the only real shot difference between the Premium/LE and Pro is the right ramp which feeds the left flipper on the Pro, but has the upper playfield as a layover on the Premium/LE?

If so the only question is whether (a) you like upper playfields at all, and (b) how well that upper playfield is integrated in the code. The reason most people are not fans of mini playfields and video modes is lack of integration with the rest of the game so it feels like an interruption. This is why I really hope the GoT coding crew addresses this longstanding gap.

I was thinking along the same lines... what would the ultimate flow game be like? It would be an orbit and 2 ramps each returning to one of the flippers... make each opening 1/4 of the playfield and post shots become a thing of the past. Would that be the ultimate in flowy pins or would it be ultimately boring?

It's from that 4 shot layout that a designer adds other interesting shots and features. GoT Pro has 1 additional shot than goes anywhere, the rest are targets... so flow affectionados should be thrilled with the Pro. I like a little more to a game, so the upper playfield would be a must for me.