(Topic ID: 194116)

Odd Williams Fun-Fest problem

By currieddog

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

FF Spcl Reel Rst RE.pdf (PDF preview)
FF Cntr Trgt RE.pdf (PDF preview)
0Fun-Fest-Work-09 (resized).jpg
Williams_Fun_Fest_EM_schematics.pdf (PDF preview)
Williams_1973_Fun_Fest_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdf (PDF preview)

#1 6 years ago

After finally getting the game running right, a new problem has developed: if the ball scores points (ball index relay pulls), but does not go in the kickout hole, which activates to the Special Reel, it will cause the Set up Relay to pull and hold and the ball will sit in the outhole, with the ball trough relay pulled, until either the Center Target is (manually) hit or the kickout hole is (manually) activated. Only then will the ball release set it up to be shot and the ball count advanced. So, it takes either the Special reel relay or the Center Target relay pulling to get things going. Schematic and manual attached (note: the manual is great and shows what each switch on each relay does). Thanks!

Williams_1973_Fun_Fest_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdfWilliams_1973_Fun_Fest_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdf

Williams_Fun_Fest_EM_schematics.pdfWilliams_Fun_Fest_EM_schematics.pdf

#2 6 years ago

I own this game. So to clairfy, when the ball drains the bonus is not scoring and the ball is not passed to the shooter lane..is that correct?

#3 6 years ago

Correct. It will just sit there, ball trough relay pulled, until either the center target or special reel reset relays are tripped. IF the special reel is tripped via the kickout hole before it drains all will proceed as it should, ie-scores, ball set up to shoot, ball count advances.

#4 6 years ago

At 4/5-C on the schematic, you will find a switch on the outhole relay that powers the score motor. Clean and gap that switch and see what happens.

The reason the other two items are making it work is because their relays also have switches to turn on the score motor.

#5 6 years ago

I have this game too. If there's anything specific you'd like me to check, let me know.

#6 6 years ago

Were that it was that easy, Cactus! All the obvious has been done and done again. Score motor switches are clean and right as well. There is just some weird tie-in with the special reel reset and/or the center target relays that I can't get, like a wire (but again, nothing obvious), and I have tried re-soldering some.

#7 6 years ago

And this may tie-in with a smaller problem I was trying to solve, which is why does the ball release coil keep kicking for a couple up to about 15x when the triple bonus comes on at the last ball. Doesn't matter if the game is set for 3 or 5.

#8 6 years ago

Hi currieddog +
Glory to the folks who made the design of this fun pin --- not so much glory to the folks who implemented the "end of ball feature" - the "before the normal Outhole-Relay stuff is allowed to happen" --- before the brain of the pin is allowed to do the stepping to next ball / next player: An Super-Brain kind of makes these subfeatures happen: Ball stops the moving light and then Ball hits the Center Target to get some tousands of points (as an end-of-ball-bonus) --- after this the brain of the pin is allowed to do the "Outhole-Relay stuff" --- to me it is a rather "crummy way of implementation".

The JPG is from an old topic --- do YOU want to locate "my AAA, my BBB, my CCC Switches" and have a look at them --- do You make some progress ? Greetings Rolf

0Fun-Fest-Work-09 (resized).jpg0Fun-Fest-Work-09 (resized).jpg

#9 6 years ago

Hi Rolf-I think I have this section of the schematic memorized (!), and I know all the contacts/gaps involved are good. Now, here is the thing that happens: with the game on, pulling the ball trough relay will pull the special reel reset, set up, and outhole relays, and the score motor will run-none of the relays hold. If points are scored (ball index relay pulls) and the ball drains, the ball trough relay pulls as long as the ball is in there, and the set up relay pulls and holds. Nothing else happens ... until the special reel relay or center target relay are tripped.

Dan

#10 6 years ago

Hi Dan
in Switzerland we have "half an hour before Midnight" - I must go to sleep. You write in post-9 +/- "actuating the Central Target Relay makes the pin proceed" -
and through the closed switch on pulling Ball Through Relay (encircled light green) - and "my AAA, moved" and "my BBB, relay not yet pulling": The Central Target Relay is made pulling.
(((I do not like the way this "end of ball bonus (1000 or 300 or 5000 points)" is implemented))), greetings Rolf

#11 6 years ago

Check out the manual to see what each switch on each relay does. It seems it should be a wire with a bad solder, but I can't figure out which one.
Dan

#12 6 years ago

Add tripping bonus relay to those that will make action resume as normal.

#13 6 years ago

Hi Dan
I am (Swiss) German speaking - I sometimes struggle with understanding an English word --- sometimes I have problems to understand an English sentence.
Your (post-11) "Check out the manual to see ..." --- is this AAA: Dan is loud thinking telling us he is looking up - or is it BBB: Dan writes an invitation / request to Rolf "Hey Rolf - look up in the manual" ?

Your (post-12) "Add tripping bonus relay to those" - hmm, I do not understand.

In post-7 You write that the Ball-Release-Coil fires up to 15 times --- the coil that kicks the ball from the Outhole over to the Shooter-Alley ? Does the Score-Motor turns and turns and turns when this faulty kicking up to 15 times happens ? Greetings Rolf

#14 6 years ago

Hi Rolf-

The manual contains some info that the schematic does not, or makes it clearer, so it's not a bad idea to cross-check and use both I think. Tripping the bonus, special reel, or center target relays, or hitting the center target itself, will return the ball from the outhole and step the ball count up. Otherwise the ball will sit there with the ball trough and set up relays pulled and nothing will happen. This is the current big problem. Ball release coil does return the ball to the alley, but that is less of a problem right now. And it only happens when the game is working otherwise normally and on the last ball of the game, ie-with triple bonus lit. Thanks, Dan

#15 6 years ago

Here is perhaps a simpler way to view the current problem: Why does the ball have to go into the kickout hole before it drains for the game to proceed normally? OR why does the ball trough relay only pull the set up relay if the ball does not go into the kickout hole before draining?

#16 6 years ago

Does anything happen if you simply give the score motor a push to run one cycle?

What happens if you manually energize the Outhole relay?

#17 6 years ago

Two paths for you to check. Sorry for the low-tech view with Highlighter and I couldn't figure out how to rotate the PDF.

From what I can tell and remember, the first thing the game must do when the ball drops in the outhole is to return the Swing Reel (Special Reel) to the Zero position. Once this occurs, it allows the Bonus Relay (outhole scores Center Target Value) to energize. Which is held in until the Ball Index Relay drops out (by the score motor cam switch). With the Ball Index relay dropped out, this allows a path from the Ball Trough Relay to energize the Outhole relay which will serve the ball to the shooter lane (Ball Release Solenoid).

FF Cntr Trgt RE.pdfFF Cntr Trgt RE.pdf

FF Spcl Reel Rst RE.pdfFF Spcl Reel Rst RE.pdf

#18 6 years ago

Whoop, manually pushing the outhole relay also makes things go.

IF the special reel has been activated by the ball going into the kickout hole, everything plays right. It's only if it drains without going in that the stall occurs. When the game is started and no ball played, tripping the ball trough relay makes the special reel, set up, and outhole relays pull and the score motor runs. If the ball drains without going into the kickout hole it will sit there while the ball trough and ONLY the set up relays pull.

#19 6 years ago

Partly because going in the kickout hole adds a step to the swing reel (Special Reel) which means its not on zero any longer. You might want to clean and gap the run out switch (Zero position switches) on the Swing reel and see if that is the source of the problem.

The ball trough relay should immediately energize the Special Reel Reset relay if it is not sitting at zero.

BTW, you have never stated if the game score bonus (Center Target Value) either when the ball goes in the outhole, or if it score once you push on these other relays. Or if it scores at all during the ball drain function.

#20 6 years ago

Zero switch was checked and cleaned. And the BTR does energize it right away if it is not at zero.

It doesn't score the bonus if it goes in with it off, but does when the set up relay pulls and the target is manually hit.

Question remains: what is the tie in between the special reel reset and the ball draining and play continuing correctly? Oi

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Question remains: what is the tie in between the special reel reset and the ball draining and play continuing correctly? Oi

I believe it is the Score Motor being able to run. You didn't respond to my question of what happens if you give the score motor a push to run a cycle (after you have placed the ball in the outhole)?

The Page I attached named FF Spcl Reel Rst RE shows the path that apparently IS working since it only comes into play when there is NOT zero on the Special Reel (kick out hole advances swing reel from 0 to 1).

So, it appears to be the fact that the score motor is not getting turned on by something that can turn it on (limited number of switches shown at 4/5-C on the schematic that can do that). With what's there, obviously the Outhole Relay is the one that should be turning the score motor on. So, we need to look at why the Outhole Relay isn't being allowed to turn on by the Ball Trough Relay or other function that occurs when the ball trough relay is energized.

When Ball Trough is made, there are two paths at 15-C depending on the state of Ball Index. When no score has been hit, the Ball index is de-energized and the path is to the Outhole relay (though a break switch on the Cent. Target Re.) Apparently, this path works correctly. The Second path is when the Index Relay is energized (Something has been scored), this path, goes through a Break Switch on the Bonus Relay (bonus is not energized according to you) and goes directly to the Center Target Relay. Which, when you say you either hit the center target or manually energize the Center Target Relay, it serves the ball because this makes the score motor run. So, I have shown you this path in one of the above attachments. Please recheck and or, probe by using an Alligator Clip Jumper to bypass each switch in the path. Obviously, to by pass both items in question, you would jumper from Blu-Y at the Ball Trough Relay switch, to Y-O on the Center Target Relay Coil. If it energizes, move the jumper to put only one of the switches in question back into our path. And figure out which switch, or wire run is bad. Tug on the wires as each switch to insure good solder joints. Besides cleaning the points, make sure the points are firmly stamped into the leaf blades. Floating points are sometimes a problem.

#22 6 years ago

Thanks, Cactus and sorry I missed the part about pushing the score motor, but I'm sure that would move things along. Will check it all out tomorrow.

#23 6 years ago

OK, after re-soldering half the wires on various relays it turned out to be Bonus relay switch C, a NC switch that I thought was NO because of a misprint/blur in the manual. It was only after staring at the close-up of the schematic that you posted, Cactus, that I saw that it was supposed to be NC. Took a bit to get it to make a good connection, but thanks much for everyone's help!

Now, on to another problem that I mentioned earlier: why does the ball release coil (which puts the ball up to shoot) usually kick extra times after the ball is up when Triple Bonus is on, either 3 or 5 ball play?

#24 6 years ago

Triple Bonus comes on for the last ball in play.

#25 6 years ago

Based on your description, are you saying that the Ball is getting served to the shooter lane WHILE triple bonus is being collected (Ball in outhole)? Are you saying that the ball release coil is kicking multiple times during a single motor cycle? or that is is simply kicking one time during each motor cycle even though it should only happen during the final motor cycle (probably 4th half turn during a triple bonus collect)?

Ball release coil is energized by a switch on the score motor C 4-A (located at 14/C-E on schem.). Through a set of contacts on the outhole relay. The Number 4 cam is very late during a score motor cycle and it should only occur as a single pulse near the end of a score motor cycle (1/2 turn).

So, the question is: Is the Outhole relay energized during the bonus collect? I do not believe it should be as the game would serve the ball at the end of the first motor cycle. Triple bonus, through the Delay and Break Relays provide 3 motor cycles of collecting bonus when tripled.

The Bonus Collect function is a matter of scoring the Target Value. Which is where Center Target Relay comes in to play. If you look at the schematic for the Outhole relay, you will see a NC switch on the Center Target Relay which prevents the outhole relay from pulling in as long as the Cent. Targ. Re is energized. That's where I would look.

#26 6 years ago

After the #4 ball drains, the ball release will kick the ball up (ball count advances to 5 and Triple Bonus lite comes on when it hits the outhole) and the ball trough relay and the ball release relay will both keep pulling, but not holding, for anywhere up to about 15x (usually less). The score motor runs while this is happening. Before I fixed the TB (loose wire on Break relay) it was not happening, and it does not matter if it is a 3 or 5 ball game. Re: your last paragraph, the CTR is not energized while this is happening. Also, if you play the ball while things are kicking/motor running it will go to Game Over as soon as points are scored.

#27 6 years ago

You understand the purpose of the index relay, right? If no score is hit by the ball (air ball), the game should not collect target value and not advance ball count and re-serve a ball.

What you seem to be describing is the difference between when the index relay is energize and when it is not. So, we need to determine if either of those states seems to be functioning correctly or if both states have issues.

#28 6 years ago

Re-reading your latest paragraph makes it sound like your problem is that the game is trying to re-serve the ball and is not kicking it. This would cause it to repeat the ball drain sequence over and over again, not just try to kick the ball only.

Look for a bright blue spark at the score motor while this is happening, this might lead you to a bad switch for the ball release coil.

#29 6 years ago

Hi Cactus-I understand the ball index relay function, but why would having it energize during that extra kicking sequence lead to game over? And that could happen on player 1 in a multi-player game. And while you're correct that it really is a repetition of the drain sequence, why does it only happen with the TB energized?
Dan

#30 6 years ago

Trying blocking contacts: on the triple bonus relay, blocking D (to energize delay relay at score motor) does nothing. Blocking C (in series with switch 1D on special reel relay reset relay) stops the extra kicking. Blocking 1D on SRRR (in series with switch 2A on center target relay) stops extra kicking. Blocking 2A on CTR (in hold circuit to that relay) does nothing. I didn't try A or B on TBR because A does the lite and B energizes the Break Relay, which in turn energizes the TBR.

#31 6 years ago

So far blocking the C switch on the TBR works the best, but you don't get a triple bonus.

#32 6 years ago

Does the outhole solenoid kick extra times only on the last ball? If so, is that true for both 3 and 5 ball games?

#33 6 years ago

Yes on both. As does the ball trough relay, and the score motor runs during the kicking.

#34 6 years ago

Latest: block on the special reel reset relay switch 2A (hold circuit) stops kicking, allows triple bonus to score, and the SRR functions correctly. Hmmmmm

#35 6 years ago

Have you check the eos switch on the swing reel?

#36 6 years ago

Yes-clean and good.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 5.95
Playfield - Protection
The Pinball Scientist
Protection
From: $ 12.99
Cabinet - Other
The Pinball Scientist
Other
$ 2.95
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
Led
$ 29.95
Gameroom - Decorations
ULEKstore
Decorations

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/odd-williams-fun-fest-problem and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.