(Topic ID: 100132)

Obsession with Stern "VE" reruns and B/W remakes is sad & disheartening


By snaroff

4 years ago



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  • 362 posts
  • 100 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Hazoff
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    There are 362 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 8.
    -69
    #1 4 years ago

    Yes, I know it's cool to lust after a 4k LOTR VE. While I understand the excitement to save 1k and get a brand spanking new machine, you won't have the same upbeat feeling when you try and sell it (and can't, because there are so many on the market). Over supply is not goodness.

    With IM, I get it. With LOTR, it makes no sense (Stern already did several reruns). Plenty of HUO examples available for 4-5k. In this instance, I hope Stern isn't listening to the Pinside Peanut Gallery.

    68
    #2 4 years ago

    I hope they are. People want the games, Stern should give them what they want.

    If you did not go into this hobby with the contingency of being stuck with a machine or the possibility of them all being worthless, then you made an error in your financial planning for the purchase.

    You are blaming the wrong people for the remakes. People want to play or own these games and the ones that have them are holding the originals for ransom at high prices. No one loses here but the A-list flippers. IMO.

    #3 4 years ago

    Have to agree with jwo825 here. Not that I think Stern would release a $4k LOTR, but if a new one could be had for $4k, I'd probably find a way to be a taker. As it is, it seems as though a decent game should be $2500-3000 but that won't happen. Why wouldn't someone pay $4500 for a NIB machine with known playability rather than a ten-year old one with unknown history?

    30
    #4 4 years ago

    Not everyone is overly concerned with what will happen when they go to sell a pin, some of us buy them to enjoy them in our home and dont lose sleep over what the value will be down the road. The games we play on them are worth something and the belief that they should be worth near what we paid for them a few years later is just foolish.

    I would much rather buy a NIB than a HUO, even if I have to pay a little more or lose a little more when I sell it.

    #5 4 years ago

    No way a LOTR VE will go for under 5k NIB. If stern ever decides to do a VE run, i'd expect it to be in the upper 5's. And i agree with jwo825 & shimoda's comments.

    #6 4 years ago

    I'm holding out for TRON VE. If it happens, great. If not, oh well, just wont own a Tron.

    I just refuse to pay more than NIB price of a machine that is used. There are a lot of LOTR, SM, (heck) even Batman Dark Knights but when the going rate is nearly $5K I'm not interested.

    For instance, I want a Batman Dark Knight. People are asking $5K plus for them. They weren't loved by the community and still really aren't but yet they are $5K plus machines. Yet, TFLE is worth $4.5K on a good day. I've just given up trying to figure out pinball pricing in the used market.

    As long as Stern stays away from LE's then I'm fine with it. Get's people into machines they've wanted and those that are collecting as investments usually are/should be buying LE's anyways. To me it's a win/win but what do I know. I bought AV Pro and TFLE and went with ST Pro over MET

    -10
    #7 4 years ago
    Quoted from shimoda:

    Have to agree with jwo825 here. Not that I think Stern would release a $4k LOTR, but if a new one could be had for $4k, I'd probably find a way to be a taker. As it is, it seems as though a decent game should be $2500-3000 but that won't happen. Why wouldn't someone pay $4500 for a NIB machine with known playability rather than a ten-year old one with unknown history?

    You guys just don't get the idea of oversupply apparently. Ever lived in an area where builders build too many homes? Makes it a nightmare to sell existing homes. Competing with cheaper/newer is tough. Same thing with pins. If you keep the pin forever, then it doesn't matter. OTOH, most games aren't worth having forever, so it helps to have a thriving resale market.

    Many games manufactured in the past decade are HUO and in great condition. It's fairly easy to find a LOTR in great condition. With older B/W games I understand the attraction of remakes. For example, most AFM's are blown out and having a new one is very desirable. Most AFM's weren't HUO and were not well maintained.

    12
    #8 4 years ago

    Yes it is. It keeps the prices down. Nothing wrong with that.

    Quoted from snaroff:

    Over supply is not goodness.

    11
    #9 4 years ago

    I, and I'm sure others, understand oversupply. I think it's a stretch to equate pinball to a home, though. One you don't really need.

    If a game isn't worth having forever, you should expect to take a loss or just resign to not buy it in the first place.

    #10 4 years ago

    At the same time there are about a dozen new manufactures.
    That's pretty awesome

    #11 4 years ago

    I keep most games I buy, so by this thread's logic I should be rooting for the market to be flooded with affordable remakes which erode the bloated resale values of used pins.

    Sounds great to me.

    #12 4 years ago

    I'm for total market saturation as soon as possible with new companies and titles and remakes.

    It'll be just like the early 2000's again with cheap machines for everyone again.

    I feel bad for anyone who buys into these collectible machines with the hopes of making money. It's not a sound investment strategy for retirement

    45
    #13 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    You guys just don't get the idea of oversupply apparently.

    You just don't get the idea of buying pins for fun and enjoyment instead of investment vehicles apparently.

    #14 4 years ago

    That's one of the big reasons I will only own a smaller collection. Too much risk for my tastes. Do I purchase pins expecting to make money or break even? No.
    Would I be concerned about losing many thousands of $$$ if I'm sitting on 50k+ worth and need to sell? Heck yah. I'm fine with taking small hits when selling, that's to be expected, especially when buying new. The remakes have certainly changed the dynamics of this hobby and none of the pins that sell over 5k are really safe from being remade and collapsing the value of the existing units.

    I know this talk is starting to sound like investing in the markets, but I think its still on most peoples minds nonetheless.

    As for the remakes, I say let them churn them out. There's still a few titles that I wouldn't mind picking up at lower prices myself.

    #15 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    You guys just don't get the idea of oversupply apparently. Ever lived in an area where builders build too many homes? Makes it a nightmare to sell existing homes. Competing with cheaper/newer is touch. Same thing with pins. If you keep the pin forever, then it doesn't matter. OTOH, most games aren't worth having forever, so it helps to have a thriving resale market.
    Many games manufactured in the past decade are HUO and in great condition. It's fairly easy to find a LOTR in great condition. With older B/W games I understand the attraction of remakes. For example, most AFM's are blown out and having a new one is very desirable. Most AFM's weren't HUO and were not well maintained.

    Ever live in a place when there isn't enough real estate?
    Shitty studios in SF are about $2,000 a month.

    -13
    #16 4 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    You just don't get the idea of buying pins for fun and enjoyment instead of investment vehicles apparently.

    Bullshit. I just listed my STLE...played less than 200 games and will gladly lose money to find it a new home. With most NIB games, it's clear people don't make money. If Stern built 1500 LE's, I would lose even more money. Everyone has different thresholds for how much money they can lose and still feel happy about a purchase. Like any toy, the thrill doesn't last forever.

    #17 4 years ago

    Oversupply ? How about under supply. The players who want to own a certain classic title have to be penalized with a high HOU price (with unknown mileage) verses a NIB remake. That's a fairly easy choice to make. I'm sure in the building homes analogy some were preordered and the builder has to inventory the balance. The pinball remakes are going to lower quantity reruns with little floating inventory. Either way $$$ talks, if the remakes are offered and sold then that part of the market is covered. The down the road resale market will seek it's own level. Some people will buy one owner classic cars (Mustang) and some will just buy what's newer or affordable.

    #18 4 years ago

    If it makes financial sense, it's gonna happen.

    #19 4 years ago
    Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

    Ever live in a place when there isn't enough real estate?
    Shitty studios in SF are about $2,000 a month.

    I've lived in 7 states and know all about crazy real estate prices.

    #20 4 years ago

    There are so many people begging for Vault editions of their favorite game that they can't find easily and/or affordable and every time one of these trades hands, Stern has missed a potential profit.

    Contrary to what you say, snaroff, there are not a lot of LoTR machines trading period, much less around 4K. And God forbid you have to ship it.

    39
    #21 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Bullshit. I just listed my STLE...played less than 200 games and will gladly lose money to find it a new home. With most NIB games, it's clear people don't make money. If Stern built 1500 LE's, I would lose even more money. Everyone has different thresholds for how much money they can lose and still feel happy about a purchase.

    Money. Money. Money. Money. You used that word in every complete sentence of your response.

    When I talk about pins I talk first about fun, and playing, and art, and mods, and friends. If the market collapsed tomorrow and you couldn't pay someone to take your big ass stupid game no one wants off your hands I'd just play my pins. If I got tired of them and wanted my garage back I'd get rid of them in some fashion and move on. I don't spend money on toys that I have to have back.

    Do I want to take a bath on them? No, of course not. But it's not a primary concern. Remakes don't scare me, if there's demand for them to be built and people are buying them then it's obvious the market is speaking and people are gaining net happiness. The people who are overly sad about losing money shouldn't have spent cash they couldn't afford to toss away. MMr or whatever.

    So it's not "disheartening" to me, because people getting nice shiny games that they want and being happy sounds great to me.

    #22 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    You guys just don't get the idea of oversupply apparently.

    One of the problems with your scenario is that you are assuming the buying market doesn't increase. Maybe if you start pushing more games out, they do temporarily experience a price decrease but the side effect could be that previously excluded buyers will be pulled into market.

    I agree with Aurich, can you imagine how freaking awesome the pinball market would be if suddenly every machine was 2 grand less?

    #23 4 years ago

    Think it's real simple....If you're comfortable with the price...BUY IT. If not...DON'T. Regardless of VE remakes or whatever.

    #24 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Yes, I know it's cool to lust after a 4k LOTR VE. While I understand the excitement to save 1k and get a brand spanking new machine, you won't have the same upbeat feeling when you try and sell it (and can't, because there are so many on the market). Over supply is not goodness.
    With IM, I get it. With LOTR, it makes no sense (Stern already did several reruns). Plenty of HUO examples available for 4-5k. In this instance, I hope Stern isn't listening to the Pinside Peanut Gallery.

    If there is truly a huge demand for more new LOTR, Stern will hear it from their distributors.

    I've said this in other threads, but I think it's highly unlikely due to the amount already built, the BOM, and the cost/time it will take to convert the code from Whitestar to SAM or the new system.

    #25 4 years ago

    Ding-Dong remakes were a disappointment to some:

    http://kffm.com/new-hostess-ding-dongs/

    dingdong.jpg

    #26 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    The only problem with your scenario is that you are assuming the buying market doesn't increase. Maybe if you start pushing more games out, they do temporarily experience a price decrease but the side effect could be that previously excluded buyers will be pulled into market.

    Very good point. And one that we've thus far ignored. If you attract more buyers into the hobby, that'll eat into that supply.

    #27 4 years ago
    Quoted from jwo825:

    Contrary to what you say, snaroff, there are not a lot of LoTR machines trading period, much less around 4K. And God forbid you have to ship it.

    snaroff, I know from other threads that you have some really desirable pins and more power to you. I have a collection of mostly players and a couple nicer machines that I am lucky to have. As has been mentioned, if enough people want machines and Stern or PPS or someone is prepared to produce them at reasonable prices (read: not MMR prices, that is plain ridiculous but I won't judge those that do bite, I just won't) then it makes sense for those companies and consumers to work together to see it happen. If the market really tanks I'm not as sure it will be as much about oversupply as dwindling interest. The recent surge was driven by many things and it did mean some people bought high and others made a good buck.

    I don't want to see the value of my machines crash but even had I considered them an investment vehicle, all investments come with risks. The best case is somewhere between the current situation - where people ask higher than NIB prices for ten year old machines that will undoubtedly need work (read: $) - and the 'vault' infused market where there are plenty to go around at still high (but NIB reasonable high) prices. Moderation in all things, including moderation.

    #28 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Plenty of HUO examples available for 4-5k.

    I have not seen a HUO LOTR sell at 4k in over two years. I see routed versions I have no interest in go for 4.5k.

    #29 4 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    Ding-Dong remakes were a disappointment to some:
    http://kffm.com/new-hostess-ding-dongs/

    dingdong.jpg 38 KB

    The only remake of that kind I want (for long available only west of the Mississippi - way west) is the Chocodile. Really the only Hostess product I crave and one for which I can not completely say why it matters so much to me to have another... It's been years, Chocodiles please!

    Edit: so I decide to google:

    http://www.latimes.com/food/dailydish/la-dd-hostess-return-chocodile-20140710-story.html

    YES!

    #30 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    You guys just don't get the idea of oversupply apparently.

    Clearly the real problem is an "overdemand" for LOTR driving the second-hand market prices up to the point where it makes financial sense for Stern to re-run the game.

    16
    #31 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    I agree with Aurich, can you imagine how freaking awesome the pinball market would be if suddenly every machine was 2 grand less?

    Yeah, it'd be like 2009 all over again - machines people can decently afford.

    I am all for people who buy LEs and get upset - that's understandable - you bought something that is supposed to be Limited Edition. For those who buy the "ho hum" version of a game, and then it gets re-released, oh well. You want investment incentives, there's Wall St. You buy high - that's the chance you're taking.

    I love that Stern is killing the high priced used pinball market. It's beautiful. The machines become more affordable for everyone, more people can actually get a machine, more choices get out there, more machines become available on the open market - no one that does this simply for the hobby loses. Only two or three groups suffer: flippers, people who bought high, and people trying to have a "special snowflake" pinball collection.

    Some of us are in this hobby because we love the games, playing the games, working on and repairing the games, and sharing them with others. I love knowing my collection is a bunch of B-listers that anyone can purchase. I couldn't care less that I don't have an A-lister. I didn't join this hobby for investment banking, preparing for my retirement with a treasure cove of games to demand money hand over fist for, or any self-indulgent reason. It was entered to play, repair, restore, and enjoy. For the last 5 games games I sold, I think I made $100 on one; I lost money on ALL others. It is a hobby to keep games alive, make them a lil' better, and then pass that blessing onto someone else.

    Keep things in perspective: this is a first-world problem. I'll be sleeping easy tonight.

    #32 4 years ago

    I dont understand the purchasing with the intent to resell, if you don't want a game why would you buy it? There are still plenty of LOTR and IM on location so spend $.50-$1.00 to rent it if you just want to play it.

    #33 4 years ago

    buying a game that you don't really want to fix up and maybe use as trade bait toward another purchase later is OK.

    Heck, not everyone can spend $5K in one shot.

    Id even go so far as to say buying a beater and fixing it up to a good playing quality and reselling for a profit isn't the devil's work. As long as you're passing it on to someone for a good price.

    Buying a game for $1500 and just holding it for a few years to sell it for 9K is the reason the remake market will catch on.

    I don't think the real collectors have to worry about LEs being remade. I don't think Stern wants that hit to their image.

    #34 4 years ago

    I buy pins to have fun - end of.

    But, I like to rotate games frequently. The more saturated the market, the harder it is as I can't keep taking losses on games.

    I have no problem losing money on games, do it all the time, but saturation does mean less games for me going forward.

    #35 4 years ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    But, I like to rotate games frequently. The more saturated the market, the harder it is as I can't keep taking losses on games.

    If you buy one game for each game you sell, it's only a loss psychologically. If you buy a $5k game that drops to $3k, and sell it to buy another $3k game that used to be a $5k game, what have you lost?

    The drop is is great if you're building a collection, and bad if you're downsizing, but basically neutral for someone who rotates games.

    #36 4 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Money. Money. Money. Money. You used that word in every complete sentence of your response.

    +1

    #37 4 years ago

    There is room for a player's market and a collector's market in this hobby, I am both and I believe Stern is doing the right thing by selling more of these vault edition pinballs because that means more players will play and grow the hobby. At the same time Stern has repeated that LE's are not going to be reproduced and that should satisfy the collector's market and maintain their exclusivity.

    Everyone wins in these scenarios and in the end if you are in this hobby for a major investment IMO you are in it for the wrong reasons, resale values are really the last thing I think about when owning a machine it is all about ego (LE's) and playibility.

    #38 4 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Money. Money. Money. Money. You used that word in every complete sentence of your response.
    When I talk about pins I talk first about fun, and playing, and art, and mods, and friends. If the market collapsed tomorrow and you couldn't pay someone to take your big ass stupid game no one wants off your hands I'd just play my pins. If I got tired of them and wanted my garage back I'd get rid of them in some fashion and move on. I don't spend money on toys that I have to have back.
    Do I want to take a bath on them? No, of course not. But it's not a primary concern. Remakes don't scare me, if there's demand for them to be built and people are buying them then it's obvious the market is speaking and people are gaining net happiness. The people who are overly sad about losing money shouldn't have spent cash they couldn't afford to toss away. MMr or whatever.
    So it's not "disheartening" to me, because people getting nice shiny games that they want and being happy sounds great to me.

    I started this thread to discuss supply/demand, which involves money. Sorry if it offends you. I knew the topic would ruffle some feathers, so I guess I'm not surprised by your passionate pushback.

    Truth be told, this topic has 0 to do with how I approach pinball playing/collecting/restoring/etc. I hosted a FLiPs event this past weekend with some of great friends/players. I do this all the time so people can enjoy my collection.

    Your implication that collectors/players concerned with the BUSINESS of pinball can't possibly enjoy other aspects is very far off target.

    IMG_9300.jpeg
    #39 4 years ago

    For LOTR, Tron, SM and other games that offer an LE they will take a hit if Vault versions come out.

    My point is that there isnt a players and collectors market but rather one market.

    #40 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Your implication that collectors/players concerned with the BUSINESS of pinball can't possibly enjoy other aspects is very far off target.

    The people who are enjoying the other aspects aren't "sad and disheartened" by the idea that people might be able to buy machines they want.

    It's really that simple. The only people who are "hurt" by such things are those looking to cash out, flip, or have way too much invested in single pins (people who thought buying a $20k MM was a bulletproof idea).

    If the whole market shifts down your trade power is unaffected. So rotating a collection is a non issue. If certain titles go up and down, hey, that's the way it works. Ask anyone who bought a NIB fire sale CV for $2k.

    #41 4 years ago

    I can sum it up in one way.

    I know a lot more people that are happy about remakes and are planning on buying ___ if it gets done than I know people whom have decided (or are considering) not buying NIB anymore due to concerns of losses.

    I understand both sides of the coin. It was nice to buy a machine, play it for a year and basically break even. Down side is that trend kept creeping up and now it got to the point where it was pushing the average person out of the market.

    #42 4 years ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    I can sum it up in one way.
    I know a lot more people that are happy about remakes and are planning on buying __ if it gets done than I know people whom have decided (or are considering) not buying NIB anymore due to concerns of losses.
    I understand both sides of the coin. It was nice to buy a machine, play it for a year and basically break even. Down side is that trend kept creeping up and now it got to the point where it was pushing the average person out of the market.

    Before "remakes", you weren't likely to break even after a year anyway. After a year, a new game is probably still in production or in stock with distributors. A game can only hope to gain in value if you absolutely can't get them any more.

    #43 4 years ago
    Quoted from ZenTron:

    For LOTR, Tron, SM and other games that offer an LE they will take a hit if Vault versions come out.
    My point is that there isnt a players and collectors market but rather one market.

    Not so sure. Only way I see Tron LE taking a hit is if they do a Tron Premium with the features of the LE. Doubt that would ever happen. Another run of Pro's would doubtfully make a difference.

    I could see LOTR and SM potentially taking a small hit as there isn't any game play differences but I still think SM Black would hold well. Just thinking of BIBLE and AC/DC Prem. No reason BIBLE should be worth $4K+ more as it;s the same game. But the different art and rarity drives the cost higher. I didn't really see Luci impacting BIBLE value much for instance.

    #44 4 years ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    I didn't really see Luci impacting BIBLE value much for instance.

    Oh I did. But it was stupidly inflated, and it coming down was a good thing, generally speaking. These over-expensive bubble titles are worse for the hobby than another run of NIB games, which Stern has done plenty of times already before people freaked out about it.

    When the 3rd run of Tron happened no one ran around flailing, Stern just did a little marketing with this Vault Edition stuff, which was smart, but other than that no big deal. Remember how long the break between LOTR and LOTR LE was?

    If you paid $14k for a BIBLE and now can only get $10k for it then just feel lucky someone is still willing to pay a $4500 premium for it over a HUO Premium. And maybe don't buy games for that much money if you can't absorb a few k loss without blinking.

    #45 4 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Yes, I know it's cool to lust after a 4k LOTR VE. While I understand the excitement to save 1k and get a brand spanking new machine, you won't have the same upbeat feeling when you try and sell it (and can't, because there are so many on the market). Over supply is not goodness.
    With IM, I get it. With LOTR, it makes no sense (Stern already did several reruns). Plenty of HUO examples available for 4-5k. In this instance, I hope Stern isn't listening to the Pinside Peanut Gallery.

    I love the idea of over supply. Prices fall on all games. I hope some day most pins are $1000 dollars. I don't buy pinball for an investment. That is a bad idea if you do.

    #46 4 years ago

    How much are you selling your game for? You buy it you keep it or take a good hit like anything else.

    #47 4 years ago
    Quoted from jwo825:

    People want to play or own these games and the ones that have them are holding the originals for ransom at high prices.

    Ransom high prices? For LOTR? I bought and sold 2 super nice HUO LOTR's in the last year right around the $5k mark (one just under $5k one just over $5k). Not sure if I'd classify that as ransom high prices.

    #48 4 years ago

    I'd purchase Iron Man VE over the initial Iron Man.

    IMO, Stern looked at the secondary market and saw demand exceed supply. It would be foolish of them not to produce more.

    Metallica and AC/DC sold really well...and we were introduced a 4th version.

    I'm a little surprised that no WOZ LE owners have complained. 2 different runs of LEs. At least with AC/DC, the 2 LE editions only had a combine total of 500.

    #49 4 years ago

    Do you think 1000 -1500 mmr remakes is going to have an effect on overall prices a few years from now? I will guarantee it won't. Has the remake had a short term impact? Of course it has, but having an extra thousand or so will have no effect long term. I'll give you an example. Shelby American used to have Alcoa build a special custom set of wheels known as "Super Snakes" or just "Shelby Alcoas". They sold retail from Shelby for about $500 per wheel. When they stopped selling them about 4 years ago, they closed them out for around $400 per wheel, and had stock for about 6 months. A year after they sold out they we're selling for $5000 per set up to $7500 for a NIB set. After being out of production for nearly 2 years, and seeing the huge demand, Shelby arranged for Alcoa to do 1 last final run of the wheels. As soon as it was announced, prices on the originals dropped to an average of $2500 to $3000 per set, even though you would be able to buy a newly produced set for $2250.00. Now it has been 18 months since the last production run of 10000 wheels sold out. Guess what? They are all selling for around $5000 average per set again.

    #50 4 years ago
    Quoted from Trekkie1978:

    I'm a little surprised that no WOZ LE owners have complained. 2 different runs of LEs.

    Some WOZ LE owners have most definitely complained about that. The fanboys, not so much.

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