(Topic ID: 196779)

NW Pinball Championships Controversy


By UNCgump

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 33 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Frax
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    One image has been uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    buffalo bill (resized).jpg

    #1 2 years ago

    What drama ensued here? I saw on FB that the ladies quit in protest of alleged sexism.

    #2 2 years ago

    First I've heard of it.

    -1
    #3 2 years ago

    Its been detailed on tiltforums

    #4 2 years ago

    Ah, I dont do Tilt forums, but it looks like a big nothingburger.

    http://www.tiltforums.com/t/what-happened-at-the-end-of-the-womens-nw-finals/3086

    #6 2 years ago

    I just wasted 20 min reading all of it. They need to overexplain without being condescending. They need to find out the issue but not while the person is crying. Unbelievable, the expectations people have are just astounding. We're human, not everything is "muh sexism" and "down with the patriarchy" type bullshit. Something's are just simple misunderstandings without the need for labels.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from Procrastinator:

    They need to find out the issue but not while the person is crying. Unbelievable, the expectations people have are just astounding. We're human, not everything is "muh sexism" and "down with the patriarchy" type bullshit. Something's are just simple misunderstandings without the need for labels.

    Yep, sounds like NW

    #8 2 years ago

    Most pinball machines were designed by men!!! Sexism!!!! There's a Bias built in! Case closed!!! Until Jersey Jen starts her own company there will never be equality in pinball!

    #9 2 years ago

    I've observed some of the personalities involved (online and a bit in person) and they are fairly nuts. In addition to always being right about everything. And have no qualms about whipping up a mob frenzy to tear people down over any perceived offense. It's very ugly. The shame for the NW scene is that these people are in the midst of much that goes on. Such a buzzkill for fairminded people who have a sense of generosity of spirit and humor and mostly just want to have fun.

    Edit, don't mean to include Kevin Birrell. He's by all accounts a great guy.

    #10 2 years ago
    Quoted from Procrastinator:

    I just wasted 20 min reading all of it.

    Same here.

    #11 2 years ago

    that tilt forum thread is just madness. watch the stream of the incident and have your mind blown further.

    alot of people are doing this nowadays they hide behind an assumption that the offender is a sexist/racist/nazi/commie/yankees fan or what have you rather than face the music of realizing it is their deplorably selfish me first or else attitude that is the catalyst for the lack of respect they receive when in public.

    #12 2 years ago

    It turned into "I'm taking my ball and going home".

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from SHOOTTHEPYRAMID:

    that tilt forum thread is just madness. watch the stream of the incident and have your mind blown further.
    alot of people are doing this nowadays they hide behind an assumption that the offender is a sexist/racist/nazi/commie/yankees fan or what have you rather than face the music of realizing it is their deplorably selfish me first or else attitude that is the catalyst for the lack of respect they receive when in public.

    Well said. Why people feel the need to be on a hair trigger to work out their social justice fantasies/neuroses in public at a freakin' pinball event is beyond me. For many of us, pinball is an escape from the serious side of life. I wish others wouldn't work so hard to ruin that by seeking to turn the scene into one of conflict, slander and personal destruction.

    Unless something pretty clearly egregious occurred, if you end up crying outside a pinball tournament, the problem probably lies with you.

    #14 2 years ago

    I know of and have played against many of the women that partcipated in this tournament. I guess I would be inclined to ask why there is even a separate tournament for women at all? Doesn't just the notion of a segregated tournament imply that they are somehow unequal? Enlighten me.

    #15 2 years ago

    I loves me some good drama, and I do not consider myself a chauvinist. I'm all about TOTAL equal rights for women. Equal pay, fight in the military, head of household, you name it. I also support political correctness. Does it makes sense 100% of the time in practice necessarily? No, but def appropriate and necessary for the most part.

    So I was expecting a good, Kaneda-esqe shit storm, with wildly inappropriate behavior getting called out and spanked down. I was disappointed, confused and saddened all at the same time.

    I watched the Twitch stream and rewound some parts to listen carefully to what was being said in the background. I read the Tilt thread.

    With all due respect to the women involved who felt disrespected - and their feelings and opinions are perfectly valid and important - I feel for the guys doing the stream. You can tell how shell shocked they were at the accusations and how things played out.

    I wouldn't say they said or handled everything perfectly, but they took some pretty strong criticism for some pretty mild, and obviously not ill intentioned comments. They seem like nice guys and true pinball fans. I disagree with the tilt poster that said "they weren't even watching the match" or "they weren't doing play by play" (paraphrasing). They most certainly were, and their commentating was balanced, informative and quite entertaining IMO.

    It goes to show how everyone can have an off day; that even folks who would never assume they are the least bit sexist might learn a little something about themselves (and others); and that issues like sexism and racism run deep and are very complex. And are very real and can be very painful. And impact EVERYONE, whether every person is aware of it or not.

    I hope everyone involved in this comes out better and wiser on the other side. I'll posit a guess that they are all good hearted people, and they obviously share a love of pinball.

    #16 2 years ago

    This whole thing is a clusterf...

    I can't even...both sides are at fault, for different reasons. Done.

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from spazzman90:

    I guess I would be inclined to ask why there is even a separate tournament for women at all

    Good point. Just think if they had a "guy only" division what would be said.

    #18 2 years ago

    " hope everyone involved in this comes out better and wiser on the other side. I'll posit a guess that they are all good hearted people, and they obviously share a love of pinball."

    I hope you're right. Based on this incident and what I've seen of and heard about the aggressors (and their "kin"), I am not hopeful. They seem to be self-absorbed, grandiose and bent on tearing people down for their own satisfaction.

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from spazzman90:

    I know of and have played against many of the women that partcipated in this tournament. I guess I would be inclined to ask why there is even a separate tournament for women at all? Doesn't just the notion of a segregated tournament imply that they are somehow unequal? Enlighten me.

    I posed that question once and was basically told it was sexistly insensitive even to ask it. But I share your curiosity. This isn't power lifting. It's pinball. Why does sex or gender matter AT ALL for competition?

    #20 2 years ago

    I don't understand why some women feel that they need to be separate... Personally I don't get it... I would be more offended by not being able to play with the "men" and being sectioned off to the "women's".

    When I played at Pinburgh there wasn't a single moment where I thought OMG these "men" have an advantage. I can nudge and slide the machines just as well as any male.

    I get the "I am women hear us roar" movement, but come on... As far as the screaming of sexism in pinball I believe it depends on who you are around. In Michigan I do not feel that way at all.

    If men are judging you at a pinball event just smile and give them the finger

    #21 2 years ago

    This is all very Oleanna.

    #22 2 years ago

    Wait...
    Pinball people having a tournament and there is COMPLAINING involved?
    Go figure

    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballwife4life:

    I don't understand why some women feel that they need to be separate... Personally I don't get it... I would be more offended by not being able to play with the "men" and being sectioned off to the "women's".
    When I played at Pinburgh there wasn't a single moment where I thought OMG these "men" have an advantage. I can nudge and slide the machines just as well as any male.
    I get the "I am women hear us roar" movement, but come on... As far as the screaming of sexism in pinball I believe it depends on who you are around. In Michigan I do not feel that way at all.
    If men are judging you at a pinball event just smile and give them the finger

    Like seriously, can I give you a high five or something if you ever come to TPF?

    The even more janky thing about "Women's Tournaments" is that they *AREN'T* barred from participation in the regular full tournament if they choose to participate in the Women's one. So you simultaneously get cries of "EMAGERD MEN ARE AGGRESSIVE, RUDE, AND SEXIST" (oddly, these are the exact things that most women seem to go for when choosing who to date WTF) and the only solution to this is self-exclusion to a different tournament where men aren't allowed to play...

    But then they play in Main, Classics, etc as well (Wait a minute...with MEN?), and lay claim to sexism when things have to fit into a schedule to accommodate all this. If men were the problem in the first place, then why is overlap with other tournaments an issue? Also, as someone that's attended major tournaments before.....things ALWAYS overlap. There's a decided opportunity cost of playing in a Classics finals for me, because many times the finals run during the end of open qualification for the main tournament. I share the opinion that under good circumstances, finals from different groups shouldn't overlap...both for the sake of streaming and because we *all* would like to play in as many tournaments as possible (right?), but there's always going to be a "female penalty" if they're insisting to have these segregated tournaments. They're always going to be at a disadvantage in qualifying for the other concurrently running tournaments because they've expended time and money on qualifying for the Women-only one. Where's the line? At what point are TD's just going to become punching bags? At what point is everything just some sexist thing holding them down? This isn't professional sports. Women are allowed to compete with men here. Thanks to IFPA rules, you can't bar them from participating in the tournaments with men in them if they're playing in the Women's division....... there's a weird dual personality thing going on here.

    I guess I've been extremely fortunate. The women I've played with are very strong characters. They were intimidating to play against because they're *that good*. There was no reason for me to judge them as anything other than competitors, and IMO the best solution is to welcome everyone to every tournament, not to create an environment that exists as a wedge between groups, and to remove the people that act inappropriately. I've yet to have ever seen this be an issue in any tournament I've ever been to, which doesn't change the fact that it happens, but it's difficult to understand how these things happen with no personal experience.

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from spazzman90:

    I know of and have played against many of the women that partcipated in this tournament. I guess I would be inclined to ask why there is even a separate tournament for women at all? Doesn't just the notion of a segregated tournament imply that they are somehow unequal? Enlighten me.

    because it gets more women inclined to participate. Just like the youth divisions and senior divisions. Where normally they wouldn't participate. And gives women new to the hobby a chance, without having to complete with all the guys that have been playing for years. Stephanie won a womans tournament at MGC. It was the first tournament she ever took place in, and was very new to pinball. Only played probably 100 games in her life at that time. Getting to play in a tournament and feel like she accomplished something, just reeled her in to the hobby. Making pinballs fan base more diverse, and it's not just and old guys game anymore.

    #25 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballwife4life:

    I don't understand why some women feel that they need to be separate... Personally I don't get it... I would be more offended by not being able to play with the "men" and being sectioned off to the "women's".

    The women divisions at these events are typically setup to offer an opportunity to ENCOURAGE more women participation in the event.. not to necessarily force them to compete separate. They compete in the open divisions too. The women's division just gives a less crowded division to encourage women to participate by giving them a division they may feel they have a greater chance to succeed in. It's just extra sweetner... not a replacement.

    #26 2 years ago

    To both of the above most recent comments, those dynamics could be addressed with a division for newcomers, irrespective of gender. Ironically, I find comparing women to children and seniors a bit sexist. I've played plenty of adult women with far more talent and experience than I have.

    #27 2 years ago

    newcomer events only invite sandbaggers that people that are not really new, just new to maybe that event. The system is fine the way it is. If you feel like you need to win a womans division trophy. Do the buffalo bill wiener tuck and go for it.

    buffalo bill (resized).jpg

    #28 2 years ago
    Quoted from UNCgump:

    To both of the above most recent comments, those dynamics could be addressed with a division for newcomers, irrespective of gender.

    Not when the objective is to make it more welcoming to women specifically

    #29 2 years ago

    The implication of specific exceptions for women's divisions remains that women are intrinsically inferior or delicate, which undermines the whole premise of gender equality. Is the likes if Zoe Vrabel (a top 500 IFPA player and player in the very controversy this thread us about) not sandbagging by playing a women's division?

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from UNCgump:

    The implication of specific exceptions for women's divisions remains that women are intrinsically inferior or delicate, which undermines the whole premise of gender equality. Is the likes if Zoe Vrabel (a top 500 IFPA player and player in the very controversy this thread us about) not sandbagging by playing a women's division?

    The women's divisions exist because enough women want them to exist that it's feasible. There are no "implications" nor do they exist on the "premise of gender equity."

    It really doesn't affect you, and it's not clear why you are so concerned about them.

    #31 2 years ago

    Sir mister man male, why do women want them to exist? I'm not "concerned," but was fostering debate within the original gist of this thread. As did others, including women. Further, I think it's a reasonable line of inquiry when people request a different division and then ask that it's given separate consideration and time and complain when it's not done so to their satisfaction, to the point of hurling charges of sexism snd even slandering particular individuals or events publicly (this happens). Sorry if you missed all that.

    #32 2 years ago

    I always tell people if you don't like the way something is done, then run your own tournament. I run tournaments here in Michigan weekly and hear a lot of different sides of those participating. I try to switch things around to make people happy but you can't please everyone all the time. Personally I don't feel that a women's division helps draw in women to participate. Now I can see why some women may like that idea of it not being as competitive as it would be playing with "men", but at the end of the day it boils down to having something to blame.

    It's great that the women's division is out there and some women go balls to the wall to participate in it, but I have zero interest in it personally.

    I do think there are a few bad apples in some of the community's but screaming sexism isn't going to fix that.

    Quoted from Frax:

    Like seriously, can I give you a high five or something if you ever come to TPF?
    The even more janky thing about "Women's Tournaments" is that they *AREN'T* barred from participation in the regular full tournament if they choose to participate in the Women's one. So you simultaneously get cries of "EMAGERD MEN ARE AGGRESSIVE, RUDE, AND SEXIST" (oddly, these are the exact things that most women seem to go for when choosing who to date WTF) and the only solution to this is self-exclusion to a different tournament where men aren't allowed to play...
    But then they play in Main, Classics, etc as well (Wait a minute...with MEN?), and lay claim to sexism when things have to fit into a schedule to accommodate all this. If men were the problem in the first place, then why is overlap with other tournaments an issue? Also, as someone that's attended major tournaments before.....things ALWAYS overlap. There's a decided opportunity cost of playing in a Classics finals for me, because many times the finals run during the end of open qualification for the main tournament. I share the opinion that under good circumstances, finals from different groups shouldn't overlap...both for the sake of streaming and because we *all* would like to play in as many tournaments as possible (right?), but there's always going to be a "female penalty" if they're insisting to have these segregated tournaments. They're always going to be at a disadvantage in qualifying for the other concurrently running tournaments because they've expended time and money on qualifying for the Women-only one. Where's the line? At what point are TD's just going to become punching bags? At what point is everything just some sexist thing holding them down? This isn't professional sports. Women are allowed to compete with men here. Thanks to IFPA rules, you can't bar them from participating in the tournaments with men in them if they're playing in the Women's division....... there's a weird dual personality thing going on here.
    I guess I've been extremely fortunate. The women I've played with are very strong characters. They were intimidating to play against because they're *that good*. There was no reason for me to judge them as anything other than competitors, and IMO the best solution is to welcome everyone to every tournament, not to create an environment that exists as a wedge between groups, and to remove the people that act inappropriately. I've yet to have ever seen this be an issue in any tournament I've ever been to, which doesn't change the fact that it happens, but it's difficult to understand how these things happen with no personal experience.

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballwife4life:

    then run your own tournament.

    I *have* run my own tournaments and leagues. I have, and will continue to, welcome any woman that cares to play, and to eject someone if there's an established case of sexism or ANY kind of harassment. I've never had a single complaint about my events, and when I was running them, women were showing up, whereas they did not to most others, so I'm pretty sure my handling of said events is just fine. (Any local women that feel otherwise and just didn't say anything at the time can be free to contact me privately, but I don't know that any of them post here..) I think the weekend league for our area is pulling in more women, but again, there's no separate division...I guess we just aren't dickheads to women. *shrug*

    What I *will not* do is run entirely separate divisions for players that feel like they should get special consideration because they don't practice, because they're born one gender or another, or because of lack of competitive motivation. I don't care if you come to play for fun or for competition. Everyone is equal in my eyes in that regard, and the final result, barring any major malfunctions, is what matters, and what gets submitted to IFPA. Fact is, in Dallas, we have *one* woman that consistently shows up for the league that I'm able to attend in the middle of the week. I can count....um........ 7 women that have ever showed up to local events and actively participated at one point or another. Any of the rest are not anyone I'd consider to show up for a tournament and want to play 99% of the time. Even out of those 7, it's more like... THREE that consistently will play, and my wife isn't even one of those three. LOL.

    If you want to call 8th-16th "b" then fine... but it's not going to be a completely segregated thing where you have no opportunity to learn from better players, or any chance to win more money than the person placing 3rd or 4th. =Þ

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    $ 10.95
    Apparel - Unisex
    Pinball Wheezer
    $ 28.75
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    $ 7.49
    Electronics
    Yorktown Parts and Equip
    $ 28.00
    $ 9.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 89.99
    From: $ 9.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 47.00
    From: $ 99.99
    Cabinet - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 79.00
    $ 800.00
    Playfields
    Pinball Playfields
    $ 9.95
    Apparel - Unisex
    Pinball Wheezer
    From: $ 49.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Medisinyl Mods
    From: € 15.00
    Lighting - Led
    TheDudeMods
    $ 75.00
    Playfield - Other
    Great American Pinball
    $ 7,395.00
    Pinball Machine
    Classic Game Rooms
    € 4.20
    Flipper Parts
    Buthamburg
    $ 209.99
    Lighting - Led
    PinballBulbs
    From: $ 19.99
    From: $ 99.99
    $ 14.95
    $ 78.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lermods
    From: $ 19.99

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside