I have read this a few times now, and this is the best I can lend to this very technical discussion...

tb.gif

Great post. Your picture #1 is what i figured i needed to do to get the 5101 two chip enables working with the FM1608. What was throwing me off was I didnt see any logic devices on other NVRAM adapter pictures. Must be using another method... let me wrap my head around that.

Bump. Because pinside needs more threads like this.

First - thanks to Lindsey for sharing this - thats the way, how it has to be done.

@barakandl:
There are logic devices on some of the other NVRAM adapters, but they do not use quad-nand-gates, but 2 single nand-gates, SN74AHCT1G00.

I use a similar circuit Lindsey demonstrated since a long time.

GTB SYS1 NVRAM.JPG

@Lindsey:

You use 74LS244.

What do you think of using 74HC245 for Gottlieb system1 als follows?

GTB SYS1 74HC245.JPG

haha ... we are playing MM ....

@Lindsey:

I like your design, but it goes even much more smaller, not bigger than the DIP-5101 itsself, when you use the "special" solder-technique as I use for my 5101-adapters.

Here is your design modified:

5101-Adapter combined CE 2015.jpg

Here are both compared:

5101-Adapter combined CE.JPG

Here how it is soldered:

solder.jpg

Hope, you like it.

You have started the discussion - electronically making the schematics we speak about electronic basics, but there is also a demand of speaking about the "hardware"-design - there can be done a lot.

I hate the discussions concerning "who has stolen an idea from another" - all adapters are the same, only differ from the layout.

We have all "stolen" the idea from Tom Calahan, who was the first and inspired me many years ago.

Ha, as you said so great - we're giving away the keys to the castle ...

Here are a few more pics:

IMG_0842.JPG

IMG_0853.JPG

If you want me to do a video of how preparing the pins and how I solder, let me know, it is pretty easy job.

Interesting your header posts do not travel all the way through the PCB? I can't tell what is going on there. Also your RAMTRON package is different than what mine look like? I have date codes from a few years later, but my IC package does not have a beveled edge like that. Is that the "SOIC-28" package? I got my lot of FM16W08 from a somewhat dodgy source. They where old stock buy backs from some Chinese manufacturing company that ended up not using them. Even though they work and was in factory packaging, I was a little concerned about legitimacy so I sent some samples to Cypress. They yelled at me for not using a official provider, but also confirmed my lot of RAMs where legit and not remarks/used which is nice since i bought a ton of them.

Here is a pic of how all my SOIC-28 RAMTRON's look.
57.JPG

I am working on laying out the traces for a FM16W08 to 6116 adapter. While I can fit the FM16W08 between the 0.6" spaced 6116 legs, I am worried it might be challenging to solder compared to if i moved it off to a side. I guess I pull it off OK when i build the generic adapters.

As far as combining the chip selects for the 5101 adapter, I might just not support anything but Bally/Stern -17 to MPU-200 and WMS 6&7 and say forget dual CE WMS 3-4 and GTB stuff. I would assume Ballly/Stern will make up 80% of the demand for the 5101 adapters because of the insane quantity of games Bally made and that the 5101 is always in a socket in that setup. The other option is I will carry two adapters. One that handles the dual CE for games that need it and lower price point on the adapter with out the additional logic to do the com dual/complimentary CE.

Andrew

1.)

It is imho NO challange to solder the 6116-Adapter, if you have a good layout.

Here is how I did it in 2011. Board is single layer-design.

First foto is 6264-Adapter, second is 6116-Adapter.

6264-Adapter.jpg

6116-Adapter.jpg

Both pretty simple to solder - I did a (bad) video of soldering, if you wanna see, look here:

2.)

To 5101-Adapter: There are no additional PCB-costs, when you design a board with combining the 2 CEs. Only more parts are the IC and 2 resistors, extra costs of about 0,2 USD, but you have the advantage, that you have extra support for WMS 3-4, GTB Sys80 - imho no question, do add the logic to every 5101-Adapter.

3.)
You might have seen, that I always - Lindsey does the same - add a PWR LED to my boards, I like it and all who use my adapters too.

4.)
You use universal PCBs, why? If you design your own PCBs, you are more open, to integrate your own ideas and the price of each spare pcb is not more than 1,00 USD.

True, but I was more thinking on assembly time. Building the adapters has been the bottleneck so far. Specially trying to keep up with the mail order board repair and the 40 hour a week day job. Plus I still have qty of 5101 adapters on hand to go through. I will have to do the layout and see how much longer they take to assemble and if that would be any problem.

This is pointless to me. I don't see a benefit to having a LED besides some kind of perceived "cool" factor. If it sells more NVRAMs tho... Pinballers love the bling factor.

I got started on the universal boards before I had ever tried to learn KiCad. I saw NVRAMs being sold at price that left a lot of meat on the bone for me to be competitive with, so that was my first go using them. I still assemble and sell them on ebay, but I am trying to get people to use the FM1608 used pulls as a 6264 replacement NVRAM and save the FM16W08 for 5101 and 6116 adapters.

WOW, that is COOL, thanks for sharing. But in your layout didn´t you interchange OE and WE??

I watched your video, and must say I never realized SMT parts could be soldered in that fashion - but admittedly have never needed to solder on a SMT board. That makes a lot of sense, thank you!

Have sent you an e-mail ....

Thank you John.

Yes, it is pretty easy, but the most important thing is the solder flux. In the video I used this - very low priced - one:
ebay.com link: itm

Second important thing is - in opposite to the video - patience and no hustle and bustle. Did you see my shaky hands when soldering the small smd resistors - I am becoming old

Unless I am totally missing something, I do not believe the HC245 design pictured above will work.

First off, with WE = L, you will be driving DQ0 from the RAMTRON to both the DI1 and DO1 of the 5101 socket.
With WE = H, you will be driving the state of both DI1 and DO1 through the 245 and combining them on DQ0 of the ramtron. Which, if DI and D0 of the 5101 bus do not match state, the two 245 driver outputs will be fighting itself. But it can be done by selecting the correct BA - AB input and output pins.

Additionally, by not using the OE\ of the 245, when WE = H (read) you will always be putting the data of the RAMTRON bus on the 5101 socket pins even if the 5101 is not selected on the CPU bus.

Lindsey's design using the 244 does do what one would expect in regards to splitting the bidirectional data of the Ramtron part into separate input and output pins based on the state of (WE) assuming that RAM_RW is an inverted version of the 5101's WE\ pin.

As drawn:

If RAM_RW is High, 5101 data -> FRAM data (MPU Write cycle)
If RAM_RW is low, FRAM -> 5101 (MPU Read cycle)

Here's my final 5101 nvram design that I put into "production" -- don't have these listed on the website yet.

5101nvram.jpg

SIP headers are cut off. I was worried about that *at first* but it appears to be okay and there's a bit of technique to getting the pins cut fairly flush to the through-hole. and not too low, not too high. Too high and the SMD chip won't sit on top properly, too low and it's going to impact the connection even more. But it seems pretty darn solid & *really* you're probably going to break pins before ever breaking the connection at the PCB.

Kind of glad I waited on putting this one into production anyway (was banking on AnyPin possibly not including Gottlieb support and I'd have released a Gottlieb-compatible one myself in 2014 because I was also *right there*). It turned into a much more refined / better looking board IMO. I actually have 2x ways the combined CE circuit can work (on the back).... a way to easily solder-jumper if that's not needed.. and it can even work with SIMTEK chips. So finally several years of working prototypes and ideas were shrunk down even more to something not much bigger than a 5101.

Original Prototype (REV 3 or REV 4 I think):
I think this was the latest prototype I had from early 2014. I wasn't fond of this other style, because it seemed like a lot of wasted of space. Even though really that was still fairly small. There's only so many options with this type of layout because of where components are located on the various boards that use 5101 & keeping it as small as possible.

5101_nvram_soic_450.jpg

I need to try some naphtha sometime to clean up flux on boards. Would love to hear some discussion of techniques on that -- ie.. using Kimwipes or cue-tips with naphtha, or is an acid brush and shake dry enough?

I've been spending *way too long* cleaning up boards since earlier this year with 99.9% isopropyl. Every time I clean up a board with lots of components I'm dreading it because it just takes like 10x times scrubbing them and blotting up the isopropyl / flux residue to get them fairly clean. Never look totally shiny and new on the back like an unsoldered pcb does though. Pretty close but not quite. I used to leave the no-clean stuff on the boards depending on how complicated the board was, but it's still a bit unsightly especially if it splatters at all.. and I decided earlier this year to just clean *everything* I was sending out. Justhave stayed away from naphtha due to smell & increased risk of fire hazard But I need to cut the time I spend on flux cleanup down. Currently one of the big time sinks for me on this stuff.

So what do people use along with the naphtha and do you just throw the stuff that was soaked in it in the garbage or put it outside or is there even any garbage there after it's cleaned with a brush? I'd imagine most of the combustible part of the solvent evaporates, but if a tissue or cue-tip was soaked in it, isn't it still more flammable after it dries and something to not allow to heat up in a pile of garbage? Maybe there's just no waste like that and brushing is enough.

Naphtha and a soft toothbrush works great.

Naphtha just cleanly evaporates, that's why painters use it as their final cleaning stage.

If you get it on a rag or Qtip, just spread the rag out and it will quickly dry.

Once it evaporates, there is nothing left of the Naphtha.

Smell the dry tissue. It won't smell like petroleum at all.

Awesome, I'll have to give it a go. Sure looks like it'd be quicker to get to the same result. I'm probably 20-30 minutes cleaning up a 64 switch tester board with isopropyl. That's just flux cleanup! Maybe I can cut it down to 5-10 minutes.

I know isopropyl is flammable too, just didn't know if naphtha was similar in that once it dries it's good. Though I did see Clay dumping it on the TZ playfield and lighting it on fire in the one This Old Pinball DVD

I always use a special spray, here in germany called "Kontakt LR", IMO btrings the best results and you will be able, to clean you great 64 sw-tester-boards very fast. But I did not find a source in US for you.

Kontakt LR.jpg

http://www.amazon.de/Ett-840-09-Kontakt-LR-Leiterplatten-Reiniger/dp/B000NI2NSG/ref=pd_sim_23_3

I've tried aerosol pcb cleaning products but they just do something similar to the isopropyl where it spreads the flux on the board.. and you have to do it 5-10x with blotting or brushing the board off to make a difference. Maybe Kontakt LR has something different in it though than what they sell for aerosol pcb cleaners in the US though.

ISO does not evaporate clean. There is minerals in it which leaves a residue on boards. Naphtha works far better at cutting flux and evaporates clean.

When i do a dirty /dusty board rebuild I do all the solder work. Wash the board in the sink with soapy warm water and a tooth brush. Then use naphtha with a tooth brush to remove the flux and displace the water. Then sit it in front of a fan. Do the dirt cleaning and flux removal at the same time to save time. You still should pull relays etc...

Just washing little NVRAM adapters it takes 30 seconds max per adapter with toothbrush and naphtha to remove flux. Obviously wear some nitrile gloves.

Aerosol PCB cleaners are overpriced solvents in a can. The last one i bought didn't work as well as naphtha and i could wash 10x as many boards dollar for dollar with naphtha.

Ok I'll admit I haven't read through this thread because I'm not technical at all. But for you tech heads out there will NVram ever come out for SAM system games that is plug and play? Is it possible?

I would pay the extra for the convenience of not having to check my batteries anymore. Glad to hear it is possible and I hope someone makes them one day.

Certainly doable without using four chips. Would just need a donor board to do some testing. I don't see a way to make it plug and play though.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

I think anyone can do a bit of soldering. I don't mimd soldering a few jumpers. That's no big deal. Soldering the whole board myself, now that's a big deal.

Stern SAM and Gottlieb Sys 3 are two systems that don't need a NVRAM solution. Complete waste of time and money. Nothing wrong with using lithium coin cells. There is no risk of board damage. When they die, just replace them. I've seen them last 15+ years. Replace them every 5 years if you're afraid of losing your scores/settings.

Ha! Yes, that certainly seems true nowadays. I just hate seeing solutions to problems that don't exist.

MRAM is the future.

128K x8, only about 10,00 USD:

http://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Everspin-Technologies/MR0A08BCYS35/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvaNBfR%2fsmQGz8qy96p9VdiTLFnEK7cx5o%3d

That's funny Ingo, that's the exact chip I was thinking of using!

It's $15 US though, still certainly doable. Other options run up to $30.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

I agree especially in the case of Stern SAM system since, just like WPC, there is a Real Time Clock circuit that is also powered by the battery, not just SRAM. Adding to the fact the SRAM is a surface mount chip, why would one even attempt an add on module that had to be piggy backed off the board via the solder pads of a SMT chip. You could use the Boot Rom (U9) dip socket (27C040) but it appears to me, you would still have to run at least 2 jumpers to pads on U11 (SRAM) - BRAM and RAMW. Which turns it in to more of a hack than a plug and play module.

Here's something I thought was interesting / cool / slightly annoying

This stuff (RAMTRON/CYPRESS) FM16W08 can operate without power applied to pin #28. Leave it totally disconnected and watch what happens. The stuff still works.. and would test fine in a RAM tester, in GQ-4X.. work in a machine. Not that you'd really want to do that (depending on esd protection diodes or whatever is clamping the voltage to the internal rails) but.. yeah I forget how I found that. I think I was trying to cause the RAM to fail by just disconnecting the power and then found some chips will still get powered up that way.

It is very interesting for sure, I noticed this doing some experiments over the last few months. It creates major issues with some future projects I've been working on though.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

Not uncommon for low power devices to leach enough power from input pins to operate the devices. As to how reliable the device will be while operating is anybody's guess, though.

Future products? Oh yes

It would all depend on how many inputs are "high" thereby supplying Vcc through the input clamp diodes and how much current is suplied through each. My guess is, if you write 00 hex to address 0, the device won't be able to stay powered for very long.

Yeah this is what I was thinking when I looked at it.

Well one other interesting thing.. maybe it's something half-way useful for the guys that are going to build a plug-and-play nvram. When I was working on that "System 11 nvram without removing the original RAM" design, I could leave the SRAM in the board & not disable it... and also have the nvram connected.. and the nvram would get the copy of the current high scores, etc. I'd imagine there's data contention there and not sure if it's anything you could count on for a design to copy high scores over (ie. set a jumper on your plug-and-play nvram board so if it's someone that cares about high scores more than their first-born the high scores could be copied to the nvram board on the first run). But it seemed to be reliable-enough if the nvram was blank. Don't think I ever tried having different data on the nvram and the SRAM though.

Might be more trouble than it's worth or not anything reliable at all.. but I bet there's some ways to copy high scores over that are more hardware-friendly and could be put that into the nvram plug-and-play board design. Just depends if it's worth the extra trouble.

I just find it neat to see something work that really shouldn't sometimes lol.