(Topic ID: 318841)

nvram install gone wrong (Demolition Man)... Or maybe not (resolved)

By The_Pump_House

1 year ago


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#1 1 year ago

I installed nvram on 7 pins today (totan, mm, ijpa, hurricane, cc, ww, and DM). All went well with the exception of DM.

When I put the MPU back in a stupidly connected the ribbon cable from Aux PCB Assembly to J201 and the ribbon from the dmd board to the aux PCB connector on the MPU.

When I fired the game up, behavior was obviously weird. I turned the pin off and checked my ribbon cables to double check/reseat my ribbon cables still not realizing that the aux/dmd ribbons were swapped. Turned the pin back on and there was no activity at all.

Corrected the that mistake but now no joy.

MPU top and bottom leds are solid and middle led is now blinking every second or so.

Now I don't know if I made a mistake with the NVRAM install or damaged a board with the ribbon swap. Swapped NVRAM chip with a known good chip as well.

I clipped the old ram at the chip and removed the pins one at a time, desoldering with my hakko. There are no solder bridges and the pads were nice and clean on both sides before installing the nvram.

W3/R93 are correct.

Currently going through all of our pins for battery elimination (30 or so to go).

#2 1 year ago

Looking at the connectors, there's nothing that should be carrying significant voltage. So, that's good, at least.

https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#WPC-089_Signal_Map_.28pinouts.29

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

The top LED (D19) is stuck on, which it shouldn't be.

https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#Power-On_LEDs_and_Sound_Tones_.28Bongs.29

That means the blanking signal isn't being pulled low like it should. But the signal passes through several components before the ASIC's blanking signal reaches the LED, so there could be a potential problem along that path.

So, go right to the source--check the blanking signal at the ASIC--is it low or high? If it's high, I would guess something could be wrong with the ASIC, since most of the pins from the swapped connectors lead into the ASIC. It's possible something exceeded the voltage tolerances of one or more of the ASIC pins and killed it.

I would be tempted to pull the ASIC and install a spare (if you have one) or swap one out from a known good one.

If the swap has no effect, I might also suspect the CPU chip. And if not that, then the ROM. But, it might be easiest to do the ROM first.

Any time you swap components, just be aware that there's the risk that the good component might fail after being installed in the problem board.

Any other WPC experts want to weigh in?

#3 1 year ago

Slow blinking (1 blink at a time) of the diagnostic led means ROM error, but can also indicate CPU not starting because of shorts in data or address bus. Re-check your soldering and look carefully that no PCB foils are broken either top or bottom of socket.

Misplacing the two connectors should not fry anything.

I have currently a CPU board on bench that does exactly the same. The board came without ROM and RAM sockets, but they were quite nicely removed with no apparent damage (don't know why). Installed new sockets, going to check address and data connectivity from RAM/ROM to CPU, and chip/page select signals from ASIC to ROM and RAM.

The ASIC itself fails very seldom, but the socket pins may bend inward so they do not make contact with ASIC pins. If you want to try with another ASIC or check the socket, be sure to use a proper PLCC removal tool - do not try with a screwdriver, that will only cause the socket frame to crack.

#4 1 year ago

I would remove all cables from the MPU except power and see if it boots correctly.
If it does, connect the ribbon cable to the power driver.
If it boots, add the ribbon cable to the sound board.
If it boots, add the cables for the DMD board.

If the process fails at any point it gives an indication of where the problem may be.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from Zigzagzag:

I would remove all cables from the MPU except power and see if it boots correctly.
If it does, connect the ribbon cable to the power driver.
If it boots, add the ribbon cable to the sound board.
If it boots, add the cables for the DMD board.
If the process fails at any point it gives an indication of where the problem may be.

Fails with no ribbons connected.

Since the consensus seems to be that the ribbon swap would not damage the MPU I will start continuity tests on the nvram socket

#6 1 year ago

Did you install a 6264 NVRAM? That is the most common one used on this WPC MPU board.

On a rare occasion, I see a 62256 installed which the jumper configuration would be different for that one.

Checking pin to adjacent pin all down the line on the NVRAM socket looking for a solder short is the next step.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Did you install a 6264 NVRAM? That is the most common one used on this WPC MPU board.
On a rare occasion, I see a 62256 installed which the jumper configuration would be different for that one.
Checking pin to adjacent pin all down the line on the NVRAM socket looking for a solder short is the next step.

Pin had 62256 and installed 6264. Removed W3 jumper and put a 1.5k resistor at R93. Already did a continuity check for a solder bridge. There is none.

#8 1 year ago

Can you post photos of the back and front of the board?

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

check address and data connectivity from RAM/ROM to CPU, and chip/page select signals from ASIC to ROM and RAM.

@THE_PUMP_HOUSE, This sounds like the next step

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

I have currently a CPU board on bench that does exactly the same. The board came without ROM and RAM sockets, but they were quite nicely removed with no apparent damage (don't know why). Installed new sockets, going to check address and data connectivity from RAM/ROM to CPU, and chip/page select signals from ASIC to ROM and RAM.

With seemly no damage originally found, just apply 5v, 12v, and ground to the power connector to see if it boots on the bench or just plug in the power connector in the game. If it boots, it will save you all that time doing continuity testing.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

Fails with no ribbons connected.
Since the consensus seems to be that the ribbon swap would not damage the MPU I will start continuity tests on the nvram socket

This is not entirely true. There are zero series resistors between the ends of the ribbon cable and almost every other pin is ground. Shifting a ribbon cable off by a row will possibly short every single output of a chip and maybe some ASIC signals to ground. When the chip tries to drive high it is a dead short and that is no good for the chip and is able to blow out a chip. Done it myself between the driver board and MPU, whoops. Board to board data buffer fried I believe.

If you just swapped the two 26pin plugs, but had the polarity correct on all ends, it should not hurt anything but you would still ground out one signal, DIS4 I think, which would probably be used in enabling the aux driver board flashers. I believe that goes right to the ASIC with no series resistors or chips between. Hopefully grounding out that signal is not going to kill the ASIC. Considering how rarely the ASIC fails, its probably ok.

Remove the NVRAM from the socket and try again since that is the last thing worked on. Triple check the work around that socket. Even though it booted up once with the cables shifted, i'd still expect the most recent rework. Might have had a flaky joint that went open when the board flexed messing with the cables.

#12 1 year ago

"If it 'ain't broke - don't fix it" says Alfred

#13 1 year ago

First off, I want to thank you all for offering help. I could just drive the boards over to Chris H's house but would rather learn by doing.

Pictures as requested.

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#14 1 year ago

Do you have the chip you desoldered? Any copper rings stuck to the chip legs?

#16 1 year ago

Traced out the sip sockets and this is what I have. I took a pic of the underside of the cpu and flipped it so that it matches as if you were looking through the board.

20 on the sip had no continuity to the solder spot marked 20 between the cpu and nvram. Corrected that.

10 and 18 are toning together... correcting

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#17 1 year ago

Ever so lightly rubbed a nylon point over the trace running between 18 and 19 because 10's trace runs through there and rubbed it between 10 and 11 because 18's trace passes through there.

10/18 are separated now.

Testing the board...

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#19 1 year ago

Am I seeing some prior battery damage? the bottom pads of the resistors to the right R88-89 look to be corroded. if this is the case, maybe there is more that needs to be looked at on the board.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from Bax1:

Am I seeing some prior battery damage? the bottom pads of the resistors to the right R88-89 look to be corroded. if this is the case, maybe there is more that needs to be looked at on the board.

No, that's just some shadow and possibly imperfect solder joints. The area looks clean to me.

#21 1 year ago

Your solder work is so much better than most of what I see!

I've gotten lucky, when I've misplaced ribbon cables nothing has blown up, so I suspect this is something else.

Of course, the terrible not-so-secret about board repair is that some of them take insane levels of dedication to find the problem.

I've had a number of the WPC CPU NVRAM replacements go bad on me, so, as you are doing:

Trace every connection that goes to where you put in the socket, make sure you ARE connected where you should be.

Trace every connection on the NVRAM socket and make sure nothing is bridged, make sure you ARE NOT connected where you shouldn't be (at least on the RAM socket itself).

Then substitute components.

The first rule of substituting components is that the best way is:

Test the suspect part in the known good system.

So if possible, pull your NVRAM, put it in a known good system (board), and see if it causes a problem there.

It's rare, but I've had bad NVRAM chips fresh out of the package.

Then pull the CPU chip, and put it in a known good system (board).

Then pull the ASIC and put it in a known good system (board).

(Edit: Probably need to think about swapping the ROM chip here also...)

Once you have known good components, then you can start with VERY basic board problems. Power, Clock, Reset, according to the 'My CPU is dead' troubleshooting, I start by re-reading Leon:

https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Leon_Borre_WPC_CPU_board_repairs

A fair amount of my 'OMG, why won't this work!!!' boards have been bad ASIC sockets. I personally send these off to a technician who is more experienced than I am at working with these chips.

Tough troubleshooting here!

Let us know what you find!

#22 1 year ago

The top 2nd and 3rd pins from the top right on your NVRAM socket may just have solder flux covering the traces close the pads, but they look like broken traces.

It also looks like you have all 4 pins in the picture with broken solder joints on the ROM socket.

Screenshot_20220718-115015 (resized).pngScreenshot_20220718-115015 (resized).png

#23 1 year ago

Found this in another thread.

So I’ve done 14 nvram installs in the last couple days and the first 11 went without a hitch…. The last 3, what the hell!

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#24 1 year ago

I’m alternating troubleshooting CPU’s and remodeling our master bathroom

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#25 1 year ago

With the broken solder joints on the ROM socket, I would remove much of the old solder and resolder it. It is always best not to mix old solder with new solder. I don't think you need to completely remove the ROM socket.

#26 1 year ago

Ok, I set the failed NVRAM installs for DM, ToM and Scared Stiff aside and pulled the MPU for AFM.

Did the installation on AFM

Clipped the ram leads,
Removed each leg one at a time and inspected to make sure I didn't pull a pad or through hole.
Cleaned it up
Toned front to back and to the ROM and ASIC.
Installed the sips

Absolutely convinced this is my best nvram and solder job ever I installed the ram and put the MPU back in AFM.

FAILED AGAIN!

That's four in a row after a string of success.

So I pulled the NVRAM out of a previous good install (IJPA) and tested each MPU again

All of the MPU's are fine.

Bad NVRAM new out of the package. I guess I should reconsider what I mean when I said tested with a "known good" component (NIB isn't known good)

Thank you all for your help, upvotes for everyone.

#27 1 year ago

Where did you purchase the nvram?

#29 1 year ago

Did you receive Ramtron branded ICs - i.e. did you order https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/RAMTRON ?

I've bought about 300 FRAM ICs the past couple of years from reputable big box electronics merchants. All of them SOIC-28 (can't find new DIP-28). All of them Cypress Semiconductor branded.

https://pinitech.com/blog.php#1519

Caveat emptor.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Did you receive Ramtron branded ICs - i.e. did you order https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/RAMTRON ?
I've bought about 300 FRAM ICs the past couple of years from reputable big box electronics merchants. All of them SOIC-28 (can't find new DIP-28). All of them Cypress Semiconductor branded.
https://pinitech.com/blog.php#1519
Caveat emptor.

Yes, all ramtron ic's

#31 1 year ago

How long ago were they bought? If recently, maybe Marco will exchange them. Worth asking.

#32 1 year ago

I have had some problems with NVRAMs in System 11 games, because of their quite strict tolerance of supply voltage. If the +5V is even a bit low and the battery isolation diode drops 200-300 mV, then the NVRAM refuses to operate. Since you dont need batteries anymore, try shorting D1. I have replaced them with selected low drop Schottky diodes with good results, but if you are sure the board will never have batteries installed, it may as well be shorted.

#33 1 year ago

I use Pinitech or Andrew's (Weebly)

Zero failures and great tech support by both.

#34 1 year ago

SRAM chips have the same operating voltage range as FM1608 and most NV modules are built around the W version of FM1608 which is the "wide voltage" version which will operate down to 3v. Starting at system 11, maybe 9, they should have low voltage drop diodes

If you have NVRAM chips that are failing within a couple minutes, Marco might have gotten burned by fake chips. Would not be the first time that has happened. The FM16L08 is a 3.3v version and will not work very long at 5v. I also read a while ago on Cypress's website about failure analysis showed a FLASH technology chip remarked as FeRAM. It worked initially but had very low endurance.

#35 1 year ago

OK.

Might be my own memory failing and the low voltage problem did occur with Dallas DS1225 NVRAM, which I used before the FeRAM was widely available.

#36 1 year ago

I had to replace the 1n5817 on a whirlwind with a jumper because the nvram (I don't remember which one but it was a LONG time ago, like repair connection days) would sporadically lock. I made it really obvious that there was NVram installed (pulled battery holder and wrote in sharpie NVRAM INSTALLED AND JUMPER) in its place.

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

OK.
Might be my own memory failing and the low voltage problem did occur with Dallas DS1225 NVRAM, which I used before the FeRAM was widely available.

those things have a built in voltage supervisor. I could see them being more picky about the 5v.

#38 1 year ago
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#39 1 year ago

This would explain why when trying to troubleshoot a system 11b with a test Rom and a brand new nvram 5101 from Marco with a ramtron chip after a few minutes of having the test Rom running and it telling me the ram has an issue (didn't want to believe it was the chip itself since it was new) the chip went up in smoke! I ended up giving up on that repair after replacing the chip with one I got from mouser. I told the owner to send the board to someone who asked a flat rate for repairs because I didn't want to afford buying more parts if they were going to go up in smoke. I was really really bummed that night not understanding how the chip could have burned.. I started looking into my psu but only the ram blew up, a few minutes after ever trying a test Rom on a system 11b.. And my psu didn't show any signs of failure.

3 months later
#40 1 year ago

I never updated this.

Defective nvram was the problem. Lock when lit replaced them no questions asked.

I converted all of our pins to nvram

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