(Topic ID: 141588)

NVRAM experience -- $1.50-$2.00 chips

By lyonsden

6 years ago


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#151 5 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Do not know if it has been mentioned or not in this thread but I received my chips from the ebay link. In my package it gave a website where you can buy direct and pay with paypal for protection.
http://www.utsource.net/ic-datasheet/FM1608-120-PG-5587067.html
Price breaks can get this down to 3.73 each.
Has anyone determined that these are not a good option yet?

I cannot comment directly on the part you link to but I can share my experience with you about UTSOURCE. I know it has been posted that they are known for selling counterfeit parts but I have used them for a number of different semiconductors over the last couple of years and have always received "working" parts. Can't tell you if they are re-branded or other, just that they worked as required. Also, here are details of a transaction I had with them:

On December 10th of 2014, I purchased some FM16W08 SOT package ram. They had them at an unbelievable price of only $1.20 for a quantity of 16. So, I placed a purchase.

The next day I received an email indicating that the supplier they were using was "sold out" and the new supplier required $4.00 per unit.

I referred them to their current EBay listing where they were still offering to sell 10 pieces for $29.33.

They replied saying they could sell them to me at $2.933 each. Since this was still a good deal to me, I agreed and sent them the balance they requested.

I received my 16 pieces promptly and they were all good. Shipping for 16 pieces was $2.60 and they arrived in under 2 weeks.

Looking at their current Ebay listing price, they are now at $32.50 for 10 with a whopping $2.00 for shipping. Their website currently lists them for $4.33 each or $3.22 if you buy 10. So, always check their Ebay listings before placing your orders. But it appears they seem to match up pretty well now. I think they sell under 2 names, one of which is HKUTSOURCE.

Compared to their website pricing of $5.83 for 10, you can get them for $48.67 shipped off ebay which is basically their price for 11 on their website:

ebay.com link: 10PCS FM1608 120 P Encapsulation DIP 28 64Kb Bytewide FRAM Memory

I wouldn't hesitate to order 10 from them but would not risk buying 100 of them until you got and used the smaller batch first.

#152 5 years ago
Quoted from jfesler:

Seems like that should be something you'd see on a scope - or even a logic analyzer. I doubt they read too often.

Yep, figure it'd just take a scope or logic analyzer and a few polls during attract mode or game mode on a few games to get some kind of indication -- could do that at the bench. I might play around with that at the bench on a Bally board sometime this winter and take it from there.. just a matter of finding a few minutes to not be doing house projects

#153 5 years ago

Here's a $5 each listing (lot of 5) plus $2 shipping.
www.ebay.com/itm/371218973445
same source as above, just different price. that seems weird to me...
www.ebay.com/itm/131214091645
And this is the same seller as the $6 version too!

#154 5 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Here's a $5 each listing (lot of 5) plus $2 shipping.
ebay.com link: itm
same source as above, just different price. that seems weird to me...
ebay.com link: itm
And this is the same seller as the $6 version too!

I've seen sellers do that -- list the same item a few times within a few dollars (or cents) of one another. Not sure why -- may for repeat customers with an old link as well as spamming the list of searched items?

#155 5 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Here's a $5 each listing (lot of 5) plus $2 shipping.
ebay.com link: itm
same source as above, just different price. that seems weird to me...
ebay.com link: itm
And this is the same seller as the $6 version too!

SOP28 = SOIC-28 surface mount package. FM1608-P have lead in them. FM1608-PG is the "green" version. The package is a different shape with different imprint fonts. That is the difference i see.

The ones that end in -PG are more likely to have a newer date code. Based on what I have seen in my stock the -P went obsolete around 2005/2006 and after that they are all "green" -PG version

#156 5 years ago
Quoted from jfesler:

Seems like that should be something you'd see on a scope - or even a logic analyzer. I doubt they read too often.

No, actually, like we discussed before, in some games the same RAM chip used to hold bookkeeping and high scores is also used as "scratch pad" ram by the main CPU and can be read and/or written to hundreds of times a second.

#157 5 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

No, actually, like we discussed before, in some games the same RAM chip used to hold bookkeeping and high scores is also used as "scratch pad" ram by the main CPU and can be read and/or written to hundreds of times a second.

I wonder how fast the switch matrix strobes on a WPC game. That would be a good benchmark value to guesstimate how long before 1 trillion read/write cycles happen.

#158 5 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I wonder how fast the switch matrix strobes on a WPC game. That would be a good benchmark value to guesstimate how long before 1 trillion read/write cycles happen.

interrupt driven. Once ever 2 ms as I recall. If they wrote the interupt routine like I have in the past, there are several read and writes to tables in RAM for both lamps and solenoids, as well as divide by timers.

#159 5 years ago

I bought the same chips from the same seller as the OP of this thread. So far I've tested one in my Getaway and it keeps scores, settings, etc as expected.

I have noticed however that if I set the clock it doesn't behave the way I expected it would using NVRAM. I've found that it keeps the date and year correctly, however the actual time of day is wrong.

Eg, I set 5 December 2015 01:21 PM. I then turned the game off, waited 10mins and turned it back on. I expected the game would continue from 01:21 PM onwards. Instead it showed 5 December 2015 01:00 AM.

I had never actually set the clock to display on the screen in the past (it's disabled by default) so I have no idea if this is a new behaviour or an existing one.

I've socketed the RAM position, however I can't easily test with the RAM re-inserted to compare the behaviour as I removed the old battery holder and threw it in the bin as it was corroded.

#160 5 years ago
Quoted from Gorgonzola:

I bought the same chips from the same seller as the OP of this thread. So far I've tested one in my Getaway and it keeps scores, settings, etc as expected.
I have noticed however that if I set the clock it doesn't behave the way I expected it would using NVRAM. I've found that it keeps the date and year correctly, however the actual time of day is wrong.
Eg, I set 5 December 2015 01:21 PM. I then turned the game off, waited 10mins and turned it back on. I expected the game would continue from 01:21 PM onwards. Instead it showed 5 December 2015 01:00 AM.
I had never actually set the clock to display on the screen in the past (it's disabled by default) so I have no idea if this is a new behaviour or an existing one.
I've socketed the RAM position, however I can't easily test with the RAM re-inserted to compare the behaviour as I removed the old battery holder and threw it in the bin as it was corroded.

That is normal behavior for the clock and NVRAM. Without power, the NVRAM keeps the last state of the system and the clock is not running, so when you turn the game back on, "time" starts up again.

#161 5 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

That is normal behavior for the clock and NVRAM. Without power, the NVRAM keeps the last state of the system and the clock is not running, so when you turn the game back on, "time" starts up again.

That's what I was expecting, however that is not happening. It seems to have gone back to the nearest hour (01:00) and swapped from PM to AM. I would have thought it would just continue on from where it was last powered off (01:21 PM).

Edit: Or have I misunderstood, and the time actually resets to 01:00 as its starting position?

#162 5 years ago
Quoted from Gorgonzola:

That's what I was expecting, however that is not happening. It seems to have gone back to the nearest hour (01:00) and swapped from PM to AM. I would have thought it would just continue on from where it was last powered off (01:21 PM).
Edit: Or have I misunderstood, and the time actually resets to 01:00 as its starting position?

Huh. I don't know. I'll check on some of my WPC games and see what they do.

#163 5 years ago

Why not buy the bulk surface mount version (with 100 Trillion writes), and one of the SOIC to Dip28 boards?

ebay.com link: 5pcs SO28 SOP28 SSOP28 TSSOP28 SOIC28 to DIP28 Adapter Converter PCB Board CG

Grand total would be like 3 bucks per unit!!!

#164 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

Why not buy the bulk surface mount version (with 100 Trillion writes), and one of the SOIC to Dip28 boards?
ebay.com link » 5pcs So28 Sop28 Ssop28 Tssop28 Soic28 To Dip28 Adapter Converter Pcb Board Cg
Grand total would be like 3 bucks per unit!!!

Where would you buy the surface mount versions from?

#165 5 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Where would you buy the surface mount versions from?

Ebay has them listed, as well as the usual Chinese part slingers.

I placed an order with a couple Chinese vendors. They say the chips are new.

(40) FM16W08 chips, soic to Dip circuit boards, pin headers, and chip sockets.

Grand total per nvram module (assembled), including shipping... $3.05 USD.

If the vendors pan out, I'll post which ones I bought from.

#166 5 years ago

I bought some of the 1 cent (!) nvrams from china. it says they shipped ($7 worth of shipping.) I figure for the grand total invested it's worth a chuckle. i seriously doubt i'll get the right part, if i get anything! my hopes are very low... but for $7 and some change, it's a good conversation topic.

#167 5 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

I bought some of the 1 cent (!) nvrams from china. it says they shipped ($7 worth of shipping.) I figure for the grand total invested it's worth a chuckle. i seriously doubt i'll get the right part, if i get anything! my hopes are very low... but for $7 and some change, it's a good conversation topic.

Worst case they don't come or don't work and you'll be able to dispute and get a refund. If they never show it'll be super easy since the tracking will show that and the seller is kind of up against a time limit (or has to extend the time) for delivery. From my experience, if the part doesn't work.. that process also was pretty easy. For some stuff I bought early on in 2013 for some prototyping of new designs, I once got an incorrectly marked SIMTEK DIP part & most likely a counterfeit (or just a remark.. but still.. remark with the wrong part number). Just did a dispute through the website and in short order got a refund.

#168 5 years ago

This is also *again* just my opinion, but I wouldn't be using parts that were super cheap compared to reputable vendors in anything but my own machines or for cheap prototyping materials. Some people are buying parts like this to use in end products and that seems to be a very risky move considering all the aforementioned "new ways" they have to counterfeit expensive ICs. Look up the FTDI clones/counterfeits that happened in the auto industry. A good amount of the parts will probably be OK but unless you're sending them off to be x-rayed, decapped and/or verifying lot numbers.. you don't have much of an idea of what was bought. Not a big deal if used in your own machines, but a bit riskier to be using in products and somewhat akin to people wholesale buying designer handbags, watches, etc that are fakes and selling as the real deal. As a product manufacturer you may not knowingly be buying something that is fake, but knowing there's very much a risk these days with clones/counterfeits & especially if it's a "too good to be true" scenario, you're not really doing anything any different than the guy selling Foakley's for "half price" of the real-deal product and leading people to believe they're getting a deal. In my view, there are certain parts/materials to steer clear from importing for a theoretical cheaper B.O.M. (bill of materials). Obviously there are plenty of people importing parts like these and using them in end products without a care in the world. Ah well

#169 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

Why not buy the bulk surface mount version (with 100 Trillion writes), and one of the SOIC to Dip28 boards?
ebay.com link » 5pcs So28 Sop28 Ssop28 Tssop28 Soic28 To Dip28 Adapter Converter Pcb Board Cg
Grand total would be like 3 bucks per unit!!!

Yep.. that's what's been posted on Pinside quite a few times, and part of the reason there are now "cheaper" nvram adapters.. these parts can be imported quite a bit cheaper nowadays than 3 years ago. The quality of them is still at times in question.. no telling what you're buying, but if "it works" is good enough for you then it's the cheapest way to build an off-the-shelf 6264 nvram.

-2
#170 5 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

I bought some of the 1 cent (!) nvrams from china. it says they shipped ($7 worth of shipping.) I figure for the grand total invested it's worth a chuckle. i seriously doubt i'll get the right part, if i get anything! my hopes are very low... but for $7 and some change, it's a good conversation topic.

You will get a paper envelope with bird flu inside....

#171 5 years ago
Quoted from cal50:

You will get a paper envelope with bird flu inside....

Borderline not funny. China makes a lot of great, useful products. Bird flu has as much of a chance of jumping species in China as it does in other parts of the world with massive bird rearing in close contact with human (e.g., US).

#172 5 years ago

double post...

#173 5 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Yep.. that's what's been posted on Pinside quite a few times, and part of the reason there are now "cheaper" nvram adapters.. these parts can be imported quite a bit cheaper nowadays than 3 years ago. The quality of them is still at times in question.. no telling what you're buying, but if "it works" is good enough for you then it's the cheapest way to build an off-the-shelf 6264 nvram.

The quality of anything you import from Chinese wholesalers is always subject to careful inspection/testing. This is true for the hands on hobbyist, and the "professional mod maker" alike. In fact, these so-called professionals aren't buying chips from the manufacturers at all. They are buying from these same part brokers to minimize costs, and maximize profit. If "it works", is good enough for them too.

Pinball is a hobby for me, and the most important part of it (for me), is getting to mess around with the electronics. There's no need for an nvram mod to cost 25-40 dollars. Even half that, is far too much to be paying for a simple chip interface or minor conversion circuit. Not to mention the cost of getting one sent up to Canada.

$3 vs $40? Excuse me as I build the exact same product being slung around here, and having fun while doing it.

Quoted from cfh:

I bought some of the 1 cent (!) nvrams from china. it says they shipped ($7 worth of shipping.) I figure for the grand total invested it's worth a chuckle. i seriously doubt i'll get the right part, if i get anything! my hopes are very low... but for $7 and some change, it's a good conversation topic.

I'm not sure I would have bothered trying to buy something so unrealistically priced. Cool story if it somehow works out though! I went with the $2ish chips. A price that would make sense for surplus sales, at the very least.

#174 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

In fact, these so-called professionals aren't buying chips from the manufacturers at all. They are buying from these same part brokers to minimize costs, and maximize profit. If "it works", is good enough for them too.

This is simply not true. I know of quite a few manufacturers of nvram adapters that are sourcing parts from authorized distributors at a higher cost. While quite a few people building or reselling ICs either are unaware or don't care about the risks .. and are looking solely at maximizing profits, there are also plenty of good guys. It would be wise for people to recognize who these vendors/distributors are.

#175 5 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

This is simply not true. I know of quite a few manufacturers of nvram adapters that are sourcing parts from authorized distributors at a higher cost. While quite a few people building or reselling ICs either are unaware or don't care about the risks .. and are looking solely at maximizing profits, there are also plenty of good guys. It would be wise for people to recognize who these vendors/distributors are.

And without disclosing those sources, there is no way to verify that this is true. Especially when we're talking about end of life/obsolete parts. Even if it were true, it's silly to not order these through a broker, and check the quality/functionality yourself. Contact the manufacturer if need be....check the codes, and verify the validity of the item.

I see you're selling the equivalent adapter (priced about in the middle of the road) for $25 USD without a socket plus $9.50 shipping. $34.50 USD = $46.63 CND. No way would I pay that.

That's obscene, and a markup of over 10x what I can build it for. Of exact quality, for a simple unsophisticated interface. I understand, many in the hobby would rather pay a premium to have somebody else do the leg work. That's not me though. I'll take the the three dollar item I put together myself, over a $50 item every day.

#176 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

I see you're selling the equivalent adapter (priced about in the middle of the road) for $25 USD without a socket plus $9.50 shipping. $34.50 USD = $46.63 CND. No way would I pay that.
That's obscene, and a markup of over 10x what I can build it for. Of exact quality, for a simple unsophisticated interface. I understand, many in the hobby would rather pay a premium to have somebody else do the leg work. That's not me though. I'll take the the three dollar item I put together myself, over a $50 item every day.

If you look back through this thread.. you'll see I'm the very person that linked the cheaper Aliexpress part / alternative sources for these parts. I've not linked my own parts here or in other similar threads.. I'm not saying "BUY MY PRODUCTS, what you're importing is junk and won't work!!!" I've actually been one of the people in favor of helping people be aware of all of their options over the years. Importing parts directly is one of them. So if you look back at posts in this threads, at other threads.. you'll see how much I've gone out of my way to help people that asked about their options.. to know all of their options when it comes to nvram. I've even posted links to quality nvram products from people I *should* consider competitors (ie. Denikar), but just don't. There are well built products and cheaper sources that I think people should know about. I supposed I'm wired a bit backwards in that sense. I'm more community driven in my intentions.

Back in 2012 I did the same thing you're doing with off-the-shelf boards. There was a $5-6 material cost then.. and it took a good deal of time hand assembling. Sold them for $16 for a bit I think, but realized it wasn't something I wanted to be doing all the time and I was also affecting the market for someone I respected.

In today's market of greater proliferation of imported components and less risk in terms of being able to dispute easier through these websites.. it makes total sense for people that don't mind taking the risk.. to import it themselves. The electronic component market is very tainted any more.. there are many electronic vendors importing expensive/obsolete ICs..refurbs, etc.. and selling as genuine parts. It's very hard for the consumer to know what they're buying.. and that's where I'm at with things -- unless you know you can trust certain vendors (like GPE) or that they'll make-good on any parts they sell you if they turn out to be of sub-par quality, you might as well just import the stuff yourself. Because you can't be sure what you're buying wasn't just imported for you.

I dunno.. not sure what it takes to convince people that I truly have more of a community-driven intention in what I do. If I didn't I'd be hyping and linking to my products all over the place and telling you that the nvram you could import from eBay or Aliexpress is complete junk! But that's hardly the case.

Happy Pinballing!

#177 5 years ago

I can see where you linked the DIP part.

What I'm talking about is the full chip/board combo.

I'm talking about new parts. The much better SOIC version is a couple dollars, and not a pull with unknown prior usage (like the DIP initially being discussed). The conversion board is widely available for around 0.35 cents, the pins and socket for a few more cents.

As a community minded hobbyist....I'll buy the parts from Chinese vendors, I'll test them. Then I'll post where I bought them from from. That's what a community-driven person would do. Showing how these can be made for $3.00 is what it's about. Not discouraging people to try and buy the parts wholesale. This reminds me of how the whole bulk Chinese LED brokers went down here on Pinside.

For somebody that has to solder on the 24 pin IC socket anyways....it's a no brainer that they would be interested in assembling the nvram on the cheap too.

#178 5 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

Borderline not funny. China makes a lot of great, useful products. Bird flu has as much of a chance of jumping species in China as it does in other parts of the world with massive bird rearing in close contact with human (e.g., US).

It's called sarcasm.......

#179 5 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

So if you look back at posts in this threads, at other threads.. you'll see how much I've gone out of my way to help people that asked about their options.. to know all of their options when it comes to nvram.

Definitely -- as have many people. All of whom I want to thank for the insight the have added to this thread.

#180 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

As a community minded hobbyist....I'll buy the parts from Chinese vendors, I'll test them. Then I'll post where I bought them from from. That's what a community-driven person would do. Showing how these can be made for $3.00 is what it's about.

And this is *exactly* what I do with all the DIY guides I post. Both sides -- mods for people and DIY hobbyists -- need and can be supported. Some people would rather solder and make it themselves, others would rather buy a plug and play kit, and have someone else install it. Room for both.

#181 5 years ago
Quoted from cal50:

It's called sarcasm.......

Still. . .

#182 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

As a community minded hobbyist....I'll buy the parts from Chinese vendors, I'll test them. Then I'll post where I bought them from from. That's what a community-driven person would do. Showing how these can be made for $3.00 is what it's about. Not discouraging people to try and buy the parts wholesale. This reminds me of how the whole bulk Chinese LED brokers went down here on Pinside.
For somebody that has to solder on the 24 pin IC socket anyways....it's a no brainer that they would be interested in assembling the nvram on the cheap too.

Completely agree with ya Been helping people know of all their options for years now. Nice to see more community driven people around here!

#183 5 years ago

I got my box today from UTSource. Packaged relatively well, anti-static foam and bag included. Will try this out in JP shortly.

image.jpg

#184 5 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

I got my box today from UTSource. Packaged relatively well, anti-static foam and bag included. Will try this out in JP shortly.
image.jpg

Let us know how it works and take some photos (helps others).

#185 5 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

I got my box today from UTSource. Packaged relatively well, anti-static foam and bag included. Will try this out in JP shortly.
image.jpg

UTsource is as legit as they come from China second source parts. They where about the only place i could find the sound generator for the -51 sound board i am redoing.

#186 5 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

I bought some of the 1 cent (!) nvrams from china. it says they shipped ($7 worth of shipping.) I figure for the grand total invested it's worth a chuckle. i seriously doubt i'll get the right part, if i get anything! my hopes are very low... but for $7 and some change, it's a good conversation topic.

Oh my God I am laughing you really didn't buy 1$ worth. You of all people could make good use of 100!

Seven and some change. Make sure to post video of that score.

My general feeling with the prices and deals. They just hook up with folks once and a while for products that involve real money. Then they win.

And some of the junk on eBay folks bid on auction type listings for more than the buy it now with free shipping is listed for that always cracks me up.

#187 5 years ago

I actually ended up swapping 3 games. Jurassic Park, Baywatch, and Lethal Weapon 3. Everything works without a hitch and verified RAM data is saved after turning off power. I did notice the legs in these are a bit flimsier than the Hyundai ICs that were originally installed so be very careful when installing these Ramtrons!

image.jpg
image_1.jpg

#188 5 years ago

Very cool.

#189 5 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

I actually ended up swapping 3 games. Jurassic Park, Baywatch, and Lethal Weapon 3. Everything works without a hitch and verified RAM data is saved after turning off power. I did notice the legs in these are a bit flimsier than the Hyundai ICs that were originally installed so be very careful when installing these Ramtrons!
image.jpg
image_1.jpg

Great to hear!

#190 5 years ago

how much did those ones cost crash?

#191 5 years ago

$31 shipped for 5, same link as the OP.

#192 5 years ago

Ok those are the ones I got too. Still waiting to hear about the $2 or less versions.

#193 5 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Ok those are the ones I got too. Still waiting to hear about the $2 or less versions.

Both places I ordered from refused to sell to me at that price and I had to initiate a refund.

#194 5 years ago

What price were they?

I kinda thought that these cheap nvrams were a dream...

#195 5 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

What price were they?
I kinda thought that these cheap nvrams were a dream...

$0.01ea is going to be a dream. I think the $2-3 stuff is going to show up for the OP. That to me seems to be a reasonable price for imported DIP parts. $5 is a bit on the high side, but about what DIP nvrams used to cost when they were available from electronic distributors in the US (ie. Mouser, Digikey, etc.. before they went obsolete and manufacturers went smd on those parts).

At some point there will probably be *someone* that finds $1-2 pricing on them that works out, but doubt any HK/China sellers would offer them at such cheap prices for very long and a $0.25ea price or something is probably going to be a mistake listing, cancelled, or not show up. Could happen.. just not likely to last. $2-3 is probably closer to the bottom-price on importing these right now & being reasonably sure they'll show up and work IMO.

#196 5 years ago

I'm still waiting for the $2.30 chips to show (Ordered Nov. 15th).

#197 5 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

I'm still waiting for the $2.30 chips to show (Ordered Nov. 15th).

Have you tried looking up tracking info using the China/HK Post tracking number from the Aliexpress order details? USPS has something worked out with China/HK, other countries too probably where tracking on those packages gets added now.

#198 5 years ago

For China Post, it tracks no problem. For USPS, it does not.

Screen_Shot_2015-12-10_at_7.00.21_AM.png

Screen_Shot_2015-12-10_at_6.59.18_AM.png

#199 5 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

For China Post, it tracks no problem. For USPS, it does not.

Screen_Shot_2015-12-10_at_7.00.21_AM.png Screen_Shot_2015-12-10_at_6.59.18_AM.png

It is hanging somewhere in the customs I think. USPS is sometimes slow or forgets to scan the package. I have often seen that, tracking on USPS-website not possible, but a few days later, I can see delivered. It is hanging back 3-7 days sometimes.

But seems to be in transit:

https://www.packagetrackr.com/track/china-post/RF124635235CN

#200 5 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

It is hanging somewhere in the customs I think. USPS is sometimes slow or forgets to scan the package. I have often seen that, tracking on USPS-website not possible, but a few days later, I can see delivered. It is hanging back 3-7 days sometimes.
But seems to be in transit:
https://www.packagetrackr.com/track/china-post/RF124635235CN

Yeah like I said before.. it often takes 2 weeks just to leave China/HK and that seems to be what happened here. Then another couple of weeks [usually] to get in the US & maybe a few more days to be delivered. 4-6 weeks is not unexpected, it'll come It's not far out.

When you order something and it gets to you in 3-4 weeks, I view what happens there as it just made the last of a container (or whatever bulk method is used) and you get lucky and shave a few weeks off regular shipping times.

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