(Topic ID: 141588)

NVRAM experience -- $1.50-$2.00 chips

By lyonsden

6 years ago


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There are 708 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 15.
#101 6 years ago

Does anyone have pictures of good and bad sockets? The would be nice to have as a reference and teaching aid put onto a sheet.

#102 6 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

Does anyone have pictures of good and bad sockets? The would be nice to have as a reference and teaching aid put onto a sheet.

The sockets in my install pictures (earlier in the thread) from WPC games are the $0.15 ones.

#103 6 years ago
Quoted from Mrjamma:

I would recommend machine pin sockets for NVRAM replacements. Its not that the standard DIP sockets wont work, but the machine pin sockets are of a much higher quality.

Oh geeze, here we go machine pin vs dual wipe sockets =D. Probably for another thread.

For what its worth. The dual wipe China sockets labeled with a MH seem to be the best quality ones coming out of China. I have gone through thousands of those sockets with good results. My Bally test MPU EPROM sockets have gone through probably at least one hundred insertion cylcles, while it is loose, there has been no problems.

I have had some China machine pin sockets that where so bad one or two insertion cycles made them very loose, i figure the wrong type of soft metal was used.

#104 6 years ago

Bought a tube of these off eBay. Got around to installing some of them today. MSF & JP went without a hitch and work perfect. Pulled the original RAM from Fish Tales, added socket and new 1608 NVRam. FT holds the settings and high scores but wants me to reset at power up. Might take a little tinkering to figure out. Overall a great product and worth the effort. No more concern of battery leakage destroying an expensive MPU.

#105 6 years ago
Quoted from JBK:

Bought a tube of these off eBay. Got around to installing some of them today. MSF & JP went without a hitch and work perfect. Pulled the original RAM from Fish Tales, added socket and new 1608 NVRam. FT holds the settings and high scores but wants me to reset at power up. Might take a little tinkering to figure out. Overall a great product and worth the effort. No more concern of battery leakage destroying an expensive MPU.

If fishtails wants to clear settings at bootup, i would consider that a problem? It would be interesting to see what the NeoLoch ram tester thinks of that FM1608.

#106 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

If fishtails wants to clear settings at bootup, i would consider that a problem? It would be interesting to see what the NeoLoch ram tester thinks of that FM1608.

This is confusing -- the game holds the high scores and settings, but thinks it is a reset every time to boot? Does sounds like a problem. What comes up on the display when you turn it on?

#107 6 years ago

Ram works fine. I forgot to set the time/date when after I installed the new 1608. It wanted me to correct that.

#108 6 years ago
Quoted from JBK:

Ram works fine. I forgot to set the time/date when after I installed the new 1608. It wanted me to correct that.

Ah yes -- WPCs and their need to know the date and time.

#109 6 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

Ah yes -- WPCs and their need to know the date and time.

Yes they are very punctual machines

#110 6 years ago

A little update on my orders with AliExpress. I ignored the requests to cancel the orders. ( I made a two separate orders ) I messaged them back stating I wanted the FM1608-120-pg that I ordered ( one order was for 100 of them for 11 bucks to the door and the other order was for 40 for 6 bucks with two different stores). Both upgraded the order to being shipped. I am waiting to see if the tracking numbers provided actually go through and get scanned in.

#111 6 years ago

Just got my order of 20 from the first eBay link. All have this same stamp/font on the chips

image.jpg

#112 6 years ago

I got a response about endurance and data codes from Cypress. Includes an interesting note that a READ counts as an endurance cycle.... copy paste below.....

-=-=-=-=-=-

Hello Andrew,

As per the information from our product experts, we can expect the same data endurance in FRAMs from both 2000 and 2010. Earlier we did not have the data to guarantee 10^12 endurance cycles in older parts, that is why the older datasheets guarantee less endurance cycles. But, please be aware that unlike other non volatile memories read operations in FRAMs also will consume one endurance cycle.

Please let me know, if you need any clarifications.

Thanks and Regards,
Sudheesh

-=-=-=-

This could be a reason to consider the fm16w08 adapters since the endurance is greater by an entire magnitude. Reality also is the endurance rating is a very conservative rating. I would assume that they will likely last a the lifetime of a game.

Also there are some charts that show difference in the VCC supply by only tenths of a volt effect endurance greatly.

#113 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

This could be a reason to consider the fm16w08 adapters since the endurance is greater by an entire magnitude. Reality also is the endurance rating is a very conservative rating. I would assume that they will likely last a the lifetime of a game.
Also there are some charts that show difference in the VCC supply by only tenths of a volt effect endurance greatly.

That's very interesting & also cool to see that Cypress support is responsive like that.

There's an FM1608B part that is spec'd at higher endurance. A bit different in a few other areas, only major drawback I was seeing is data retention but then.. Cypress has updated their FM16W08 datasheet with the same temperature / data retention info & for pinball machines, it would seem we're in the 65 degree Celsius (149 degree Fareinheit) spec... so it'd be more of an endurance issue -- http://www.cypress.com/file/134656/download

#114 6 years ago

I have assumed the data retention was number of years between write/read of a memory location.

I think temperature may effect endurance rating. I will see if I can understand the bar graphs later today.

Looks like voltage definitely effects endurance. The voltage drop across the blocking diode left in games probably helps the FRAM last longer.

#115 6 years ago

Since some of you are buying the FM1608 right from China(boo, buy from me hehe). Is there any interest in DIY kits for 6264/FM1608 RAM to 6116 RAM? I just made the layout and it is super simple because of how similar the footprint is 6264 to 6116

I could sell just the blank adapter board. Adapter board and just the parts to assemble. Or assembled adapter boards and you plug in your own FM1608 into the 6116 adapter.

I have to think about it more. Might be counterproductive for me to do this.

#116 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Since some of you are buying the FM1608 right from China(boo, buy from me hehe). Is there any interest in DIY kits for 6264/FM1608 RAM to 6116 RAM? I just made the layout and it is super simple because of how similar the footprint is 6264 to 6116
I could sell just the blank adapter board. Adapter board and just the parts to assemble. Or assembled adapter boards and you plug in your own FM1608 into the 6116 adapter.
I have to think about it more. Might be counterproductive for me to do this.

I might be down with this

#117 6 years ago

Here are some Eagle and Gerber files for a single sided 6116 to FM1608 DIP adapter. Should be a pretty easy board to etch at home. That might be a good option for some people.

6116 to FM1608.jpg

Gerbers:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20To%20FM1608%20Gerbers.zip

Eagle Files:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20To%20FM1608%20Eagle%20Files.zip

If you see an error, feel free to point it out.

#118 6 years ago
Quoted from Lindsey:

Here are some Eagle and Gerber files for a single sided 6116 to FM1608 DIP adapter. Should be a pretty easy board to etch at home. That might be a good option for some people.
6116 to FM1608.jpg
Gerbers:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20To%20FM1608%20Gerbers.zip
Eagle Files:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20To%20FM1608%20Eagle%20Files.zip
If you see an error, feel free to point it out.

Thanks for posting these!

#119 6 years ago
Quoted from Lindsey:

Here are some Eagle and Gerber files for a single sided 6116 to FM1608 DIP adapter. Should be a pretty easy board to etch at home. That might be a good option for some people.
6116 to FM1608.jpg
Gerbers:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20To%20FM1608%20Gerbers.zip
Eagle Files:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20To%20FM1608%20Eagle%20Files.zip
If you see an error, feel free to point it out.

Yes, thanks for posting these. I assume the Sys 11 will still require a jumper change?

#120 6 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

Yes, thanks for posting these. I assume the Sys 11 will still require a jumper change?

No jumper change needed. I have never seen anything but a 6116 come in a sys11 mpu from the factory. The RAM is hard soldered to the PCB tho.

#121 6 years ago

Here's one with the bypass cap added. There should be one on the MPU PCB, but it doesn't hurt to throw one in there.

You could install the cap on the bottom of the PCB, in the case of the DIP cap, there is enough room for it to not interfere with anything when installed, or use a socket and install either cap (SMD or DIP) under the socket.

6116 to FM1608 With Bypass Cap.jpg

Eagle Files:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20to%20FM1608%20Eagle%20Files%20With%20Bypass%20Cap.zip

Gerbers:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20to%20FM1608%20Gerber%20Files%20With%20Bypass%20Cap.zip

#122 6 years ago

And one with an LED because everyone loves LEDs. Pads for SMD and DIP parts.

6116 to FM1608 With Bypass Cap And LED.jpg

Eagle Files:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20to%20FM1608%20Eagle%20Files%20With%20Bypass%20Cap%20And%20LED.zip

Gerber Files:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20to%20FM1608%20Gerber%20Files%20With%20Bypass%20Cap%20And%20LED.zip

Feel free to use these files for your own use. If people want to put together some kind of group PCB order or something, go ahead, but would prefer that these not be made and sold for profit by anyone.

I would also suggest that someone vet the designs before going forward with creating PCBs. I did these designs quickly to help you guys out. It's not improbably that there's an error

#123 6 years ago
Quoted from Lindsey:

And one with an LED because everyone loves LEDs.

Definitely. And nice work. Thanks for designing these and making them available for hobbyists to use. If you want to make sure that people abide by your "not for profit" wishes, please add a license file to your zip file.

This license may work (but I haven't read it carefully): https://opensource.org/licenses/NPOSL-3.0

#124 6 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

Definitely. And nice work. Thanks for designing these and making them available for hobbyists to use. If you want to make sure that people abide by your "not for profit" wishes, please add a license file to your zip file.
This license may work (but I haven't read it carefully): https://opensource.org/licenses/NPOSL-3.0

Thanks! I'll do that.

#125 6 years ago

has anyone received the $2 nvrams or the 20 cent version?
the $6 ebay ones seemed to have come through, but what about the ones from AliExpress?

#126 6 years ago

The $0.20 ones were cancelled (they were really $0.01 because it said it was a lot of 20, unless there was another $0.20 one). Unfortunate that you can't get NVRAM for $0.01, I agree.

#127 6 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

has anyone received the $2 nvrams or the 20 cent version?
the $6 ebay ones seemed to have come through, but what about the ones from AliExpress?

My $2 chips are in the mail from AliExpress. I'll report back if/when they arrive.

#128 6 years ago

I am guessing on the adapter above pin 1 is on the upper left and pin 24-28 upper right. ??
No need to really make pcb for a couple jumpers. Some perf board will work fine.

Thanks in advance.

#129 6 years ago
Quoted from Lindsey:

And one with an LED because everyone loves LEDs. Pads for SMD and DIP parts.
6116 to FM1608 With Bypass Cap And LED.jpg
Eagle Files:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20to%20FM1608%20Eagle%20Files%20With%20Bypass%20Cap%20And%20LED.zip
Gerber Files:
http://pinforge.com/6116_To_FM1608_DIP/6116%20to%20FM1608%20Gerber%20Files%20With%20Bypass%20Cap%20And%20LED.zip
Feel free to use these files for your own use. If people want to put together some kind of group PCB order or something, go ahead, but would prefer that these not be made and sold for profit by anyone.
I would also suggest that someone vet the designs before going forward with creating PCBs. I did these designs quickly to help you guys out. It's not improbably that there's an error

Thanks for sharing this, Lindsay.

What do you think about a design like this?

A bit more complicated to solder, but the FM1608DIP has the same axis as the 6116-socket.

FM1608 top 6116.JPG

#130 6 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

I am guessing on the adapter above pin 1 is on the upper left and pin 24-28 upper right. ??
No need to really make pcb for a couple jumpers. Some perf board will work fine.
Thanks in advance.

I was going to say this as well.. or even use a 24-pin machine pin socket with the RAMTRON DIP part to create a cheap 6116 adapter -- with just two jumper wires. Bend pin #23 up on the RAMTRON (or cut it off). Insert the RAMTRON into the socket so that pins 1,2 & 27,28 overhang on the left side. Then solder a jumper from pin #28 on the RAMTRON to pin #24 on the socket (or pin #26 on the RAMTRON since that pin is NC/unused). Solder another jumper from pin #27 on the RAMTRON to pin #21 on the socket. You could trim the legs at pin 1,2 & 27,28 on the RAMTRON if they might come in contact with any other components as they overhang the socket. Obviously a PCB would be better for some people or a cleaner look, but the 6116/6264 match so closely in pinout a quick DIY solution like this wouldn't look too "hackish" either.

I also added some info to this post if you then wish to create an adapter for the GQ-4X so you can read/write to a 6116 & other nvram.. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/zero-out-nvram Again that adapter is also dead-simple and doesn't really require a PCB either because of how closely 6116/6264 match in pinout.

#131 6 years ago

How would the LED behave?

#132 6 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

How would the LED behave?

If soldered in the correct direction, it would illuminate when power (+5v) is applied to the host board.

#133 6 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

How would the LED behave?

If five volts main power on LED is lit.
Totally unnecessary. Decoupling cap is good practice but there is already one for the 6116 you are replacing so not really needed as well. The first design is the one I would work off.

#134 6 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

Thanks for sharing this, Lindsay.
What do you think about a design like this?
A bit more complicated to solder, but the FM1608DIP has the same axis as the 6116-socket.
FM1608 top 6116.JPG

Cool stuff! I like the size. I've been designing most things for efficient assembly lately and trying to find a balance between PCB cost and assembly time. Sometimes making things smaller makes them a lot harder (for me) to assemble. In this case the main thing was to keep it single sided so people could etch them at home.

#135 6 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

I am guessing on the adapter above pin 1 is on the upper left and pin 24-28 upper right. ??
No need to really make pcb for a couple jumpers. Some perf board will work fine.
Thanks in advance.

That's right.

A hand built adapter or stacked sockets would be a good option for a lot of people. Etching PCBs is going to be a good option for people who need a bunch of them. I wouldn't consider it for one or two either.

#136 6 years ago
Quoted from Lindsey:

Cool stuff! I like the size. I've been designing most things for efficient assembly lately and trying to find a balance between PCB cost and assembly time. Sometimes making things smaller makes them a lot harder (for me) to assemble. In this case the main thing was to keep it single sided so people could etch them at home.

I think they have to be double sided unless you want to solder machine pins from the top side. That might be difficult for someone with limited practice.

Quoted from Lindsey:

Cool stuff! I like the size. I've been designing most things for efficient assembly lately and trying to find a balance between PCB cost and assembly time. Sometimes making things smaller makes them a lot harder (for me) to assemble.

I learned this too when offset staggering pins. You want a little space so you can actually have room to solder. There is a pattern to follow doing these offset pin adapters so you have the most space to get the iron tip in there. You will figure it out after assembling a couple.

#137 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I think they have to be double sided unless you want to solder machine pins from the top side. That might be difficult for someone with limited practice.

That was my thought too. If you made the boards single sided you would need to use machine pins or solder the RAM directly to the adapter. Neither of those options are that difficult. Personally, I would probably just solder the RAM to the adapter, if I were using the ~$2 RAMs and etching my own boards. I'm not planning to do either of those things at this point.

You could also make a double sided board with the files I provided. If you had any of those PCBs made by a board house into a two sided board, you would have the through-hole pads on both sides and you could solder in a dual-wipe socket much easier. I also included the bottom layer in the gerber files so the option is there even for people etching their own, which was the whole point in the first place.

Quoted from barakandl:

You will figure it out after assembling a couple.

Agreed. I've done many revisions of these stupid RAM adapters over the years and learned what works for me. Like offsetting the DIP packages the way I did. In this case that made the board slightly smaller, and allowed me to route the traces the way I wanted. I could have moved them closer together, but then assembly gets tougher. It's a balance.

#138 6 years ago

The easiest option for most people is going to be just buying a dedicated 6116 adapter from one of the many people selling them.

#139 6 years ago

Still waiting for someone to say they got their $2 nvrams from china... anybody??

#140 6 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Still waiting for someone to say they got their $2 nvrams from china... anybody??

Looks like lyonsden is the only one to have commented that they ordered the $2 nvrams & he mentioned a few posts ago that the order did not come in yet, but he'd post when it did come in.

Sometimes it can take a few weeks just to get out of China/HK.. the package will literally go nowhere while they're filling up containers or whatever bulk method the stuff is shipped. Actual shipping time is then another week or two at least.. before status gets updated and it arrives in the US. Then you're looking at a few additional days for the US Mail system to get it to you. Any Chinese/HK holidays can also cause delays.. along with normal busier times of the season here. Generally it takes 4-6 weeks to receive the goods... could even be a bit longer that that sometimes tho.

#141 6 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Looks like lyonsden is the only one to have commented that they ordered the $2 nvrams & he mentioned a few posts ago that the order did not come in yet, but he'd post when it did come in.
Sometimes it can take a few weeks just to get out of China/HK.. the package will literally go nowhere while they're filling up containers or whatever bulk method the stuff is shipped. Actual shipping time is then another week or two at least.. before status gets updated and it arrives in the US. Then you're looking at a few additional days for the US Mail system to get it to you. Any Chinese/HK holidays can also cause delays.. along with normal busier times of the season here. Generally it takes 4-6 weeks to receive the goods... could even be a bit longer that that sometimes tho.

Yep -- looks like my order hit China Post Nov. 27th.

Screen_Shot_2015-12-04_at_7.24.21_AM.png

#142 6 years ago

What I noticed was a number of the cheaper sellers had 38 to 45 days shipping to the US. Normally, from the "full price" vendors, its 10 to 15 days and I often get it sooner.

So, your theory about filling a container verses air post, make sense.

#143 6 years ago

I have been putting off NVRAM conversion..........

#144 6 years ago
Quoted from cal50:

I have been putting off NVRAM conversion..........

Wait another year and see how the rest of fair. We may be replacing bad, old, used, and worn out chips by that time Or, wait till the next time you are replacing batteries and stick a chip in for about the same cost. YMMV.

#145 6 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

Wait another year and see how the rest of fair. We may be replacing bad, old, used, and worn out chips by that time Or, wait till the next time you are replacing batteries and stick a chip in for about the same cost. YMMV.

Yeah maybe sometime soon someone will get around to figuring out an average number of READS that pinball machine memory is doing in various manufacturer's machines to see how it effects endurance... now that Cypress has said the READs count against the endurance specs. That might also mean USED PULLs are slightly more of a gamble depending on what they were used in and how often the memory was being accessed. You'd *think* that whatever the endurance specs, RAMTRON/CYPRESS wouldn't be offering something that didn't hold up for at least 10-15 years even in a worst case scenario, but it would be neat to learn some information about what the longevity truly is in this kind of application (ie. what kind of average reads happen in a System 11 game.. versus WPC.. versus Classic Bally/Stern).

#146 6 years ago

I'm curious if the two dollar nvRams will actually ever show up.
I noticed on eBay you can now buy them for four dollars. which is obviously cheaper than the six dollars that started this thread.
I think it's interesting buying things from the Ali express website. But frankly I don't hold a lot of faith in it. Not at least until someone says they've actually received the chips and they are in good condition.

#147 6 years ago

Do not know if it has been mentioned or not in this thread but I received my chips from the ebay link. In my package it gave a website where you can buy direct and pay with paypal for protection.

http://www.utsource.net/ic-datasheet/FM1608-120-PG-5587067.html

Price breaks can get this down to 3.73 each.

Has anyone determined that these are not a good option yet?

#148 6 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Yeah maybe sometime soon someone will get around to figuring out an average number of READS that pinball machine memory is doing in various manufacturer's machines to see how it effects endurance...

Seems like that should be something you'd see on a scope - or even a logic analyzer. I doubt they read too often.

#149 6 years ago
Quoted from jfesler:

Seems like that should be something you'd see on a scope - or even a logic analyzer. I doubt they read too often.

I would think scanning of the lamp and switch matrix would be hitting the ram on every scan. Every time the WPC computer increments in the in game clock would be RAM access too. I am not sure if it is counting that stuff by the millisecond or what.

Ramtron/Cypress claims 1 trillion write endurance of the FM1608

A system 11 game runs at 1 MHz (1,000,000). If the CPU read the ram once every cycle it is about 700 days to reach 1 trillion writes.

If you are worried about write endurance, the SOIC-28 version FM16W08 is 100 trillion write endurance.

#150 6 years ago

Reminds me that I've been working on a DM9602 interposer which replaces this EOLed part with a 74*00D.

topDM9602.png
botDM9602.png

The DM9602 is used on Bally -35 CPU boards as U16. I've been using a version of this interposer in Star_Trek: Mirror Universe for several years without issue.

I thought about making the PCBs available via OSH Park... any interest; if so I'll start a new thread.

There are 708 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 15.

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