(Topic ID: 141588)

NVRAM experience -- $1.50-$2.00 chips

By lyonsden

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 708 posts
  • 116 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 day ago by harig
  • Topic is favorited by 128 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

hs (resized).png
ram (resized).JPG
Untitled (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
04C6865A-9064-4994-8FF7-8F959B036B78 (resized).jpeg
D0A29810-8035-453B-8038-D3B24F43A09F (resized).jpeg
C34151AD-9662-43CB-8066-7A5216B7A07F (resized).jpeg
pasted_image (resized).png
Untitled (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
9F6095BC-2380-4BAB-A602-400CA3165D48 (resized).jpeg
pasted_image (resized).png
Ice-Cold-FreezeOtto (resized).jpg
Knipex (resized).jpg
IMG_6122 (resized).JPG

There are 708 posts in this topic. You are on page 12 of 15.
#551 5 years ago

Had a chance to put one of these chips in a Williams System 11C. Worked like a charm and easier to desolder the old chip than on WPCs. If you do this, make sure to change the jumper from W5 to W6

Untitled.001 (resized).jpeg

#552 5 years ago

Here it is with the NVRAM chip installed.

IMG_6169 (resized).JPG

#553 5 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

I bought a lot of 50 SMT ramtrons from Ali.
3 of 50 were good. Yes, 6%!
Bought another lot from a different seller. It just arrived.
Haven't tested them all yet, but the first few are good!

There is factory in China making knock off FM16W08 now. I bought some Aliexrpess "too good to be true price" FM16W08 and they came RAMTRON branded with date codes that should be Cypress. Most of them did work, at least initially, but i did have some dead right out of the tube. I am not using these in my adapters.

I still cannot get anymore FM1608 dip28 package from a source I trust. I am only going to have SMT to DIP28 adapters going forward once what I have left is gone.

#554 5 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

There is factory in China making knock off FM16W08 now. I bought some Aliexrpess "too good to be true price" FM16W08 and they came RAMTRON branded with date codes that should be Cypress. Most of them did work, at least initially, but i did have some dead right out of the tube. I am not using these in my adapters.
I still cannot get anymore FM1608 dip28 package from a source I trust. I am only going to have SMT to DIP28 adapters going forward once what I have left is gone.

Thanks for the update! Can you post a link/name for the bad seller(s) so other people don't end up doing the same?

#556 5 years ago

This is for reference, but if people want to map RAM between 6116 and 6242, I found this diagram.
(From upgrading RAM in a SNES: http://www.dbwbp.com/index.php/10-electronic-projects/6-upgrading-ram-in-snes-cart)

RAMUpgrade (resized).png

#557 5 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

This is for reference, but if people want to map RAM between 6116 and 6242, I found this diagram.
(From upgrading RAM in a SNES: http://www.dbwbp.com/index.php/10-electronic-projects/6-upgrading-ram-in-snes-cart)

This would be for adding one of the NVRAM chips to an older system 11 board that only has 24-pins.

#558 5 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

This would be for adding one of the NVRAM chips to an older system 11 board that only has 24-pins.

To make 6264 work in place of 6116, you just need lift the two extra address pins and tie them to ground. The /RE and VCC would need routed too. The rest of the pins match up. You could stack sockets the legs floating out and come up with something that worked.

#559 5 years ago

For all of those who find chips that "test bad", have you tried them in a game? I ask because I had three "test bad" on another order and they work fine in the machines, zero issues for months now...

#560 5 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

For all of those who find chips that "test bad", have you tried them in a game? I ask because I had three "test bad" on another order and they work fine in the machines, zero issues for months now...

It is possible to have a ram chip that is only bad in one small section. When I read back these NVRAMs that have been used in a game, a good portion of the RAM is still blank or has static data that never changes. As long as the bad section never gets accessed, it may work fine in game.

It is also possible your RAM tester didnt make good connection or it failed it on the first pass due to a glitch of some kind. I use an older neoloch RAM tester and sometimes it reports 6264 NVRAMs as bad. if you test them a 2nd time they read good.

Of my FM1608 used pulls, I have had less than 1% bad out of the tubes. The FM1608 seems to be quite robust and not that static sensitive.

#561 5 years ago

Received 10 more chips. They came stacked and wrapped in cellophane. Definitely pulls. All 10 passed testing with no problems. $2.25 per chip.

image (resized).jpeg

image (resized).jpeg

#562 5 years ago

So far, I've ordered 30+ of these over the past 18 months with no chips testing bad.

#563 5 years ago

For those that are interested it buying these, here is a link to AliExpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-P-DIP/32413906510.html

#564 5 years ago

I tried my first attempt at adding a socket and installing an NVRAM chip today. I started with my Fish Tales game. I carefully as I could removed the old chip without damaging any pads. I installed the socket and put in the NVRAM chip. Everything looked great. Reinstalled the CPU board in the game and now it won't turn on. The display is all wonky, and a few solenoids are firing. I quickly turned it off. I checked all my connections and tried a different chip. No luck. Could I have fried the game Rom? I used an iron and solder wick to remove. I did not remove the game Rom, i'm thinking I maybe should have.

2016-10-01 15.40.28 (resized).jpg

2016-10-01 16.17.56 (resized).jpg

2016-10-01 16.18.14 (resized).jpg

#565 5 years ago
Quoted from Edster:

I tried my first attempt at adding a socket and installing an NVRAM chip today. I started with my Fish Tales game. I carefully as I could removed the old chip without damaging any pads. I installed the socket and put in the NVRAM chip. Everything looked great. Reinstalled the CPU board in the game and now it won't turn on. The display is all wonky, and a few solenoids are firing. I quickly turned it off. I checked all my connections and tried a different chip. No luck. Could I have fried the game Rom? I used an iron and solder wick to remove. I did not remove the game Rom, i'm thinking I maybe should have.

Traces at the topside above RAM footprint pin 1 look damaged, same for the trace below pin 14 and 15.

#566 5 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

For those that are interested it buying these, here is a link to AliExpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-P-DIP/32413906510.html

Thank you, ordering 20 pieces from this source.

#567 5 years ago

Not sure how this happened but the chip is not fitted properly in the socket. Note the gap on the bottom right pins. Probably something similar going on with the upper pins.

More likely to be the traces MorAlb pointed out, but something is not right with the way the chip is inserted into the socket.

#568 5 years ago

Yup, cut traces when you pried the old chip off.

Here is a bit if advice to beginners:. Never pry up on an IC or socket. Use you fingers to slide it left and right and up and down. If it won't lift right out gently, you haven't freed all the pins yet. As you move it, you should be able to see each pin move within the hole. And never dig down with a flat head screwdriver to pry out a chip.

#569 5 years ago

I think i see problems. Highlighted them in red.

damaged track 1 (resized).png
damage track 2 (resized).png

#570 5 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Yup, cut traces when you pried the old chip off.
Here is a bit if advice to beginners:. Never pry up on an IC or socket. Use you fingers to slide it left and right and up and down. If it won't lift right out gently, you haven't freed all the pins yet. As you move it, you should be able to see each pin move within the hole. And never dig down with a flat head screwdriver to pry out a chip.

You are correct. The chip was loose but I think I gently used the screwdriver and that was the beginning of my problems.

#571 5 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Not sure how this happened but the chip is not fitted properly in the socket. Note the gap on the bottom right pins. Probably something similar going on with the upper pins.
More likely to be the traces MorAlb pointed out, but something is not right with the way the chip is inserted into the socket.

The chip seemed fitted fine. I didn't see anything abnormal. Maybe the way the picture is. It all seemed ok when I installed it.

#572 5 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I think i see problems. Highlighted them in red.

Oh man. Looking at the board they are not visible but in the pictures it does look bad. This looks beyond my realm to figure out. I can see that the breaks on the top are related to the game Rom. This explains why the game won't boot an is going a bit crazy. The leads seem to go under U9. May need to send the board out for repair. The cost of learning.

#573 5 years ago

Well, at least he got a photo before installing the socket so we know the source of the failure.

Unfortunately, the socket will need to come out again unless you want a bunch of "blue wire" on the back of the board.

#574 5 years ago
Quoted from Edster:

You are correct. The chip was loose but I think I gently used the screwdriver and that was the beginning of my problems.

I usually just clip the pins off the chip, then desolder the pins one by one. Safest method if you don't need the chip you're taking out again.

#575 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I usually just clip the pins off the chip, then desolder the pins one by one. Safest method if you don't need the chip you're taking out again.

I was actually worried that using snips might do similar damage since there isn't much room. I was able to get the chip to come out easily once in the end, I don't exactly know why I used the screw driver under it. I guess I didn't think it was that fragile but I really is.

#576 5 years ago
Quoted from Edster:

I was actually worried that using snips might do similar damage since there isn't much room. I was able to get the chip to come out easily once in the end, I don't exactly know why I used the screw driver under it. I guess I didn't think it was that fragile but I really is.

If you use really sharp, precision cutters, and cut them where the leg bends into the chip, it really is the safest way. Something like this tip cutter designed for tight spaces:

amazon.com link »

(There's probably a cheap knockoff at harbor freight or the like, but this is the idea)

#577 5 years ago

Very sorry to hear that the replacement didn't go well. I would not do this without a desoldering iron and clipping the legs off of chips -- especially if this is the first time someone attempts this. It cannot be overstated how fragile the traces are for this chip on WPC games. Any force can lift and tear them; applying heat too long to the solder pads can lift and remove them.

That said, the damage in the photos can be repaired. Check out Terry's definitive guide: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-soldering-guide-part-1

And this post is in the area for repairing traces: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-soldering-guide-part-1/page/4#post-2768534

#578 5 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

Very sorry to hear that the replacement didn't go well. I would not do this without a desoldering iron and clipping the legs off of chips -- especially if this is the first time someone attempts this. It cannot be overstated how fragile the traces are for this chip on WPC games. Any force can lift and tear them; applying heat too long to the solder pads can lift and remove them.
That said, the damage in the photos can be repaired. Check out Terry's definitive guide: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-soldering-guide-part-1
And this post is in the area for repairing traces: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-soldering-guide-part-1/page/4#post-2768534

Thanks. I will use clips the next time I attempt this. I have done chip removal before but of boards that are not this sensitive. I didn't realize there were that many traces on the top of the board. I will have to pay extra attention to this for sure. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions. I am sure that I could have removed the chip easily enough if I only use my fingers and nothing more. I have to agree that clips are the way to go. I will pick up a pair.

#579 5 years ago

Harbor freight does sell close cutters (red handle $4.99). But they are not narrow tips. They are very sturdy and cut extremely flush. They can do the pins at the pcb but not along the sides of the IC.

#580 5 years ago

Hakko makes nice flush cutters and they are quite inexpensive. I have two pair I use, one i am more rough on and the other pair i try and be gentle with so the blades stay nice. Even the one i cut things thicker than i should be with them are holding up great with daily use. I have had other recommended brands break on me really quick.

amazon.com link »

amazon.com link »

get the five pack! hehe

#581 5 years ago

Ed,

Sayal on Matheson has the flush cutters and the IC remover.

#582 5 years ago
Quoted from eh97ac:

Ed,
Sayal on Matheson has the flush cutters and the IC remover.

Thanks. That's where I was thinking to go and see if they carried them. I bought my sockets from there.

#583 5 years ago

I always use DMM to ohm out the connections to be sure of continuity from the socket to wherever the trace goes after installing a socket. Taking a picture with the chip out helps locate the destination of the traces once the socket is installed on the component side.

1 month later
#584 5 years ago

Just wanted to post my experience. These ramtron chips work great in Data East games. I did have a problem with a WPC game (rottendog board) that the DMD would humm after I put in the ram chip. I removed the chip and there was no humm. Very odd.

#585 5 years ago

I put one of these NVRAM chips in Rottendog MPU for Williams WPC (Getaway) and it works perfectly.

1 month later
#586 4 years ago

Figured I would chime in on my experience on ordering some of these.

I ordered 3 lots (qty 30) from the following seller: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-P-DIP/32413906510.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.OgK37h

I got out my shiny new Neoloch Inquisitor with the SRAM blade and got to testing. 75% were good right out of the gate. 25% were good on the 2nd test. Out of 30 pieces, one bad IC. Not worth filing a dispute over. I did find that once the Neoloch tested a unit bad, it would continue to test the same unit and subsequent units as bad unless the tester was power cycled. I don't know why that is, so I got into the habit of power cycling the tester after each test.

I paid $3.36 each for them including shipping which was a little high, but that was because they shipped via EMS instead of the normal China Packet thing. Unfortunately that was the cheapest shipping option. If you take out the one bad unit, cost was basically a hair over $3.47 each. It would have been nice if there had been a cheaper shipping option as the one offered ends up costing $1 per unit if you order in qty of 30. It's more per unit for a smaller qty.

Overall I am satisfied. I see the seller currently has them at 5% off so the order would be even cheaper today. I am halfway tempted to order another lot, but I don't need them so I probably won't.

Michael

#587 4 years ago

on the subject of cutters these one are pretty good for both through hole & surface mount, very fine cutters
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261260423086?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
not sure if he ships worldwide but happy to forward for cost if not
Bob

s-l500 (resized).jpg

#588 4 years ago

Thanks for the update -- I'm still sitting on 10+ from my last order and continue to use them without problem in various games.

#589 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballtoys:

on the subject of cutters these one are pretty good for both through hole & surface mount, very fine cutters

Indeed, in US too. ebay.com link: reversed blade pcb CUTTERS backwardized side cutters for electronic components

#590 4 years ago

I just socketed, rejumpered and chipped one into a dr dude 11b board with absolutely no drama.

#591 4 years ago

Is there any cheap chips for 6116 NVRAM like on sytem 9 and 11a?

#592 4 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Is there any cheap chips for 6116 NVRAM like on sytem 9 and 11a?

Define cheap =D. Some of the FM16W08 to 6116 adapters can be had for $11 each in 10 packs from different vendors. But no... RAMTRON never made a 2k x 8bit 6116 footprint FeRAM device.

Dallas made some 6116 NVRAMs that use an internal lithium battery, DS1220 You get about 10 years out of one. I wouldn't recommend using the dallas parts either. They are probably more expensive than RAMTRON adapters.

#593 4 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Is there any cheap chips for 6116 NVRAM like on sytem 9 and 11a?

No, but you can make/buy and adaptor to get the pin out to work. If you want to DIY, check out this post of mine: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nvram-experience/page/12#post-3363464

I'm hoping to get some time to document doing this as a DIY over the holiday on a system 11a.

#594 4 years ago

I've had several people asking if I would sell my FM1608 chips. These are my personal stash that I'm saving for upgrading games as they roll through my house. Here is a link to the store on AliExpress where I bought them: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-P-DIP/32413906510.html Right now, their price is $28.88 shipped for 10 chips.

Note that while I've had 1/30 bad chips ordering from them, other's have had a higher fail rate.

#595 4 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

No, but you can make/buy and adaptor to get the pin out to work. If you want to DIY, check out this post of mine: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nvram-experience/page/12#post-3363464
I'm hoping to get some time to document doing this as a DIY over the holiday on a system 11a.

You could do it by stacking IC sockets on top of each other. It might get kind of tedious rerouting the pins manually, but def do able. I made adapters by stacking IC sockets for non jedec pinout ROMs i wanted to dump.

#596 4 years ago

As of 12/26/16 I still have about 25x of the RAMTRON DIP parts I ordered from Aliexpress a while back, fully tested through the Neoloch Inquisitor & shipped to you in anti-static foam -- 10x for $40.00 or 15x for $55.00, price includes shipping in the US. Again these are the DIP RAMTRON shown in this thread, bought from Aliexpress. Just selling off a few lots I had purchased earlier this year for near what I paid for them since I really have no use for them. The chips are obviously refurbished -- sanded, remarked, etc. Judging by this thread they seem to work well enough. I found about 20% failure rate in what I ordered (ordered 50 chips, 10x tested bad.. 2x had bent legs). Just giving my experience there. If anyone wants to 10x bad chips to play around with, you can have them for $4.00 shipped (covers shipping costs). Who knows, maybe one or two of them function okay for a game.

I sell nvram modules, but I was also the person that posted the original link for the cheaper Aliexpress nvram. My thoughts are, if you want to save a few bucks -- it's a great option, but there are some risks in getting a few bad chips.. or chips with broken legs. Most/All of what you'll get are refurbished USED chips, they've been sanded & remarked -- and it's fairy obvious. But, lots of people seem to be okay with that & have not had issues.. so it's still a good option if you want to save a few bucks. Obviously the SMD based modules aren't going to be as cheap since there's both a material cost & time involved in soldering the adapters together & cleaning them up.

#597 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

You could do it by stacking IC sockets on top of each other. It might get kind of tedious rerouting the pins manually, but def do able. I made adapters by stacking IC sockets for non jedec pinout ROMs i wanted to dump.

Exactly what I was thinking. Looks like only a couple of wires to reroute.

#599 4 years ago

Both acebathound and barakandl run stores that sell NVRAM, adaptors, etc, and have been incredibly helpful on this thread. If you are looking for tested NVRAM, I highly recommend both of them.

#600 4 years ago

I wish the Neoloch testers wouldn't give "false positives" -- I haven't emailed David separately about that, but it gets a bit annoying having to run memory through several cycles even if it passes on the first, just to verify it's giving the correct results. And many people have posted if it fails on a chip, the next chip tested might also start off with a failure. So that for me turns into having to run every chip tested through at 2x cycles to make sure it's a valid result. Seems like something cached isn't getting cleared out.

My wishlist for the Inquisitor would be to see that issue cleared up, then every type of RAM "cleared out" once the test is complete. I'll probably still use some other methods to then verify the nvram modules I'm doing after that, I like not relying 100% on anything, but to know the RAM has been cleared for every type after testing was done would be nice.

One hardware wishlist I have for the Inquisitor is to move the ZIF socket below the LCD screen. Slows you down having it so close to the blade that sticks up on it. That and *anything* that could possibly make testing larger RAMs quicker. Maybe a faster PIC if the current one is running the tests as fast as it can.

There are 708 posts in this topic. You are on page 12 of 15.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside